Federal United Kingdom thoughts?

[Slant]

aye but it from my perspective seems like it was a major concern when it fit a political position but now its actually a problem, its one that people seem to forget in the heat of trying to fight other political battles, we saw this week how the EU-UK vaccine spat very nearly over ran on the good Friday agreement and rose tensions in NI until a quick U-turn got it under control, seems like the troubles is something every one remembers when it suits them but when it comes to blocking vaccine exports its conveniently forgotten.

There will come a point in time when the EU can no longer adhere to treaties that don't concern her, though. Ultimately, the UK needs to come up with a solution. Not even "or else". We can't accomodate their peculiarities forever.

[Monster Hunter]

There will come a point in time when the EU can no longer adhere to treaties that don't concern her, though. Ultimately, the UK needs to come up with a solution. Not even "or else". We can't accomodate their peculiarities forever.

Not exactly, the EU is a collection of states, so unfortunately that means inheriting those states history and problems, the problems in Northern Ireland arnt entirly the responsibility of the UK to solve, thats kind of part of the problem, the republic must have a seat at the table over anything that is done or is to be done about the north Ireland issue, and as a member state of the EU that makes maintaining peace in Northern Ireland as imperative to the EU as it is the Republic and the UK.

The EU can't just wash there hands and walk away, thats one of the problems of being a collection of states, you ultimatly share both the good and shitty bits, other wise if your only together for your own benefits its not really a union.

You may sit there as a German(?) citizen and think why should I have to be forced into compromises and have to care about a state on the far side of Europe and there issue's but thats the same mentality those who want to break the EU up hold, and the troubles is a problem shared between the UK and the Republic, what happens in NI has an effect on the republics safety, yes atm the UK bears the brunt by having Ireland patitioned and the problem area in the UK,

but you have to remember that if the UK wanted to it could cut Northern Ireland off tomorrow knowing full well the bombs and bloodshed will be dublins problem, and these dudes have had decades of hiding and stockpiling weapons, one of the most terrifying things in my life was visiting my ex girlfriend parents 10 years ago in Northern Ireland im 90% sure if if I was Catholic i wouldn't be here to type this.

But I guess thats why on this issue im on the side of dont do anything to rock the boat, dont stir the pot, and keep the red hand and ira pomp down because its not worth the lives.

And on the topic its frightening enough that I'm even worried what the loyalists will do over any move internally towards federalism or even taking some more power from the monarchy, the red hand and the IRA scare me in ways Islamic terrorists can only dream about.

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Possibly but the argument was kept going because it dominated the headlines and allowed the government to sneakily u-turn on NHS workers' pay-rises.

Aye, though I live in the North so it was a bit of a whole movment thing, and its kind of stuck, I've seen freinds talking seriously about Northern independance lately that I'd have never even dreamed of being a possibility 10 years ago.

My position on that is devolution good, independance bad. I hate southerners just as much as any northerner or Scotsmen or Welsh, but I also do know where my breads buttered, and yea you can say the reason all the wealth is in london Is because of the london centricity of Westminster and neglect for the rest of the UK, but it dosnt change the reality of the situation were in now.

So ill take having more say over our selves and our own people but wouldn't want to see the UK break up, not out of any nationalist sentiment, im Northern first, English second and British 3rd, but simply because I think we can finaly get into a position for the first time in nearly 1000 years where we up here can have a real voice and milk the cunts down there for every penny haha

[Slant]

If you can come up with a compromise, I'm happy to hear it. So far, the reality is that NI can't be both within the EU and without the EU at the same time. If there's not one heck of a big compromise in the works in your brain, the ultimate bottom line is that at some point the UK will align so closely with the EU that everyone here will ask why they went through the shitshow in the first place, or NI is going to face a border to Ireland. I see no other way. And as much as I sympathize with the people in Northern Ireland... The city I live in has more inhabitants than the whole of NI put together.

Context matters. The EU will not tolerate an open border to an unreliable... and yes, even deceitful, trade party for a long time. Troubles or not, the interests of 1.9 million people do not outweigh the economic interests of half a billion people. And if they can't deal with that, that is ultimately their problem. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

[Monster Hunter]

If you can come up with a compromise, I'm happy to hear it. So far, the reality is that NI can't be both within the EU and without the EU at the same time. If there's not one heck of a big compromise in the works in your brain, the ultimate bottom line is that at some point the UK will align so closely with the EU that everyone here will ask why they went through the shitshow in the first place, or NI is going to face a border to Ireland. I see no other way. And as much as I sympathize with the people in Northern Ireland... The city I live in has more inhabitants than the whole of NI put together.

Context matters. The EU will not tolerate an open border to an unreliable... and yes, even deceitful, trade party for a long time. Troubles or not, the interests of 1.9 million people do not outweigh the economic interests of half a billion people. And if they can't deal with that, that is ultimately their problem. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

you know as well as I do that neither side will make a move that has a serious potential to cost lives, were both sat in economy destroying lockdowns over a 3.0% mortality rate, and we have conservative government with a track record for not giving a fuck about human life.

sorry to say but you guys are wedded to this problem just as we are, i know and understand your sentiment, plenty of people here would like northern Ireland to just sort there shit out one way or another it would as you show make the solutions easy, but that's not the reality and unless the EU or Uk suddenly becomes a stone cold dictatorship of the kind that are willing and able to throw 1.5mil people under a bus for the strength of the state then we together are stuck with this issue.

[Slant]

you know as well as I do that neither side will make a move that has a serious potential to cost lives, were both sat in economy destroying lockdowns over a 3.0% mortality rate, and we have conservative government with a track record for not giving a fuck about human life.

sorry to say but you guys are wedded to this problem just as we are, i know and understand your sentiment, plenty of people here would like northern Ireland to just sort there shit out one way or another it would as you show make the solutions easy, but that's not the reality and unless the EU or Uk suddenly becomes a stone cold dictatorship of the kind that are willing and able to throw 1.5mil people under a bus for the strength of the state then we together are stuck with this issue.

This is pointless. 4 years and you still pretend you can manhandle the EU in this. Ireland understands its role. It is safeguarding the external border of the UK. They have said so time and again. See what's more important to Ireland, the new business they are getting these days or accomodating the madhouse that is the UK and its domestic problems.

Sacrificing the single market's integrity to avoid armed conflict in the UK, a problem that is homegrown by its reckless policies... nope, don't see that happening anytime soon.

[Kallisto]

TBH the only way the EU can make a compromise is something that simply put can not happen. Which would be essentially kicking RoI out of the EU for all intents and purposes. If that's the way then why have the EU at all? It's not realistic, fair on Ireland and something that can even be put at the negotiating table.

[Dhrizzle]

you know as well as I do that neither side will make a move that has a serious potential to cost lives, were both sat in economy destroying lockdowns over a 3.0% mortality rate, and we have conservative government with a track record for not giving a fuck about human life.

sorry to say but you guys are wedded to this problem just as we are, i know and understand your sentiment, plenty of people here would like northern Ireland to just sort there shit out one way or another it would as you show make the solutions easy, but that's not the reality and unless the EU or Uk suddenly becomes a stone cold dictatorship of the kind that are willing and able to throw 1.5mil people under a bus for the strength of the state then we together are stuck with this issue.

There are only so many options, it's up to us (UK) to pick one and stick with it.

Border between NI and Eire pissing off Republicans and breaking the GFA.
Border between NI and Britain pissing off Unionists.
Britain joins NI in the common market or customs union or something, with all the costs and responsibilities that entails, pissing off Brexiteers.
Eire leaves the EU and makes a union with the UK, pissing off themselves (actually this isn't just up to the UK.)

[jonnysensible]

Eire leaves the EU and makes a union with the UK, pissing off themselves (actually this isn't just up to the UK.)

*jukebox starts playing*
I WAS BORN IN A DUBLIN STREET.....

this one just isnt happening ever.

[Elegiac]

Eire leaves the EU and makes a union with the UK

The way English people continue to even tout this as a remote possibility shows how ignorant y'all are of history and the way the rest of the world perceives you. Rofl.

No, sweetheart, the Irish are not going to acquiesce to an English-led union for a whole host of reasons not the least of which because it took them such great pains to escape the grasp of colonialism the first time.

[Kallisto]

The way English people continue to even tout this as a remote possibility shows how ignorant y'all are of history and the way the rest of the world perceives you. Rofl.

No, sweetheart, the Irish are not going to acquiesce to an English-led union for a whole host of reasons not the least of which because it took them such great pains to escape the grasp of colonialism the first time.

Only Dribbles has really said this as a real possibility, everyone else (maybe not sircaw) knows this isn't going to happen. At least in regards to the usual people in this thread.

[Elegiac]

Only Dribbles has really said this as a real possibility, everyone else (maybe not sircaw) knows this isn't going to happen. At least in regards to the usual people in this thread.

You say that but then just go look at the comments on any polling regarding whether or not the British Empire was a bad thing, it’s quite a trip.

[Monster Hunter]

This is pointless. 4 years and you still pretend you can manhandle the EU in this. Ireland understands its role. It is safeguarding the external border of the UK. They have said so time and again. See what's more important to Ireland, the new business they are getting these days or accomodating the madhouse that is the UK and its domestic problems.

Sacrificing the single market's integrity to avoid armed conflict in the UK, a problem that is homegrown by its reckless policies... nope, don't see that happening anytime soon.

Shows you don't understand Northern Ireland and the troubles, unless its fits what the EU wants politically

Nothing that happens in NI can be done without the republic being involved and at the table, Northern Ireland is a problem for all of Ireland not just the UK because ultinatly if the UK fuck it up then it can easily be dublin streets that run red with blood.

Your attitude is very callous towards another eu member state.

As for safeguarding the boarder.... lol, you really think that? Because I can drive over the boarder right now with no pass port checks or "safeguarding"

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There are only so many options, it's up to us (UK) to pick one and stick with it.

Border between NI and Eire pissing off Republicans and breaking the GFA.
Border between NI and Britain pissing off Unionists.
Britain joins NI in the common market or customs union or something, with all the costs and responsibilities that entails, pissing off Brexiteers.
Eire leaves the EU and makes a union with the UK, pissing off themselves (actually this isn't just up to the UK.)

Problem is I can't see any of them happening. All of them groups are to powerful and alot of them way to violent to want to piss off.

If I was a betting man, which I am, I'd say whats gonna happen is the UK will sit in perpetual stalemate and wait for the EU to make the move, propaganda spin that to hell and then hope its the EU that has to deal with the fall out and terrorism.

Woe betide any one who's seen to be standing between the republic and the IRA, the IRA are no freinds of the EU any more than the unionists.

[Dhrizzle]

The way English people continue to even tout this as a remote possibility shows how ignorant y'all are of history and the way the rest of the world perceives you. Rofl.

No, sweetheart, the Irish are not going to acquiesce to an English-led union for a whole host of reasons not the least of which because it took them such great pains to escape the grasp of colonialism the first time.

If only you'd read the bit after the comma which made it obvious I was making a tongue-in-cheek remark and not a serious suggestion. The full sentence I wrote was "Eire leaves the EU and makes a union with the UK, pissing off themselves"

[nonameelf]

You say that but then just go look at the comments on any polling regarding whether or not the British Empire was a bad thing, it’s quite a trip.

Yeah, a lot of British people think the UK did absolutely nothing wrong to Ireland, it's crazy. What are they teaching in schools over there?

[Slant]

Shows you don't understand Northern Ireland and the troubles, unless its fits what the EU wants politically

Nothing that happens in NI can be done without the republic being involved and at the table, Northern Ireland is a problem for all of Ireland not just the UK because ultinatly if the UK fuck it up then it can easily be dublin streets that run red with blood.

Your attitude is very callous towards another eu member state.

As for safeguarding the boarder.... lol, you really think that? Because I can drive over the boarder right now with no pass port checks or "safeguarding"

Enjoy your freedom while it lasts. And attempts to drive a wedge between Ireland and the EU have failed so far. What makes you think you are successful in pretending I do not care about the RoI? It's NI that I have less concern with. They can sort their shit out internally or they'll start killing each other again. I'm not forcing them to behave like Neanderthals, that's on them. And I can't force them to play nice, either. What I can do is support anyone in the EU that protects my interests. Guess what those interests include, yes the integrity of the single market.

You try and paint me as the asshole here, while at the same time completely ignoring that the UK actively tries to dismantle the Governmental institutions of the EU and sabotages the project that 26 other countries are heavily invested in. That attitude deserves some commentary, but since @Rozz is just looking for a dumbass excuse to ban me, I'll stop here.

[DingDongKing]

Yeah, a lot of British people think the UK did absolutely nothing wrong to Ireland, it's crazy. What are they teaching in schools over there?

Nothing, basically. The schools in the UK teach next to nothing about what's actually happened in history.

[Dhrizzle]

Yeah, a lot of British people think the UK did absolutely nothing wrong to Ireland, it's crazy. What are they teaching in schools over there?

Norman invasion of 1066.
Henry VIII - James II
How we single-handedly won WW2 with the Americans turning up at the end to ride our coat-tails to glory.

[Monster Hunter]

Norman invasion of 1066.
Henry VIII - James II
How we single-handedly won WW2 with the Americans turning up at the end to ride our coat-tails to glory.

we did the romans too, i loved roman day in primary school, got to dress up as a centurion.

but I don't think its a case that Britain doesn't know about what it did to Ireland, Ireland certainly goes on about it enough and every one grew up with the IRA.

its simply the people of Britain just don't care, Ireland kind of lost the sympathy card around the time the IRA blew up those two kids.

[Felya]

Norman invasion of 1066.
Henry VIII - James II
How we single-handedly won WW2 with the Americans turning up at the end to ride our coat-tails to glory.

I got to learn about WW2 in US and USSR... they both did this, by exaggerating their impact on defeating Hitler. But... in all fairness... USSR version was far closer to the truth. I don’t mean geographically...

Just to be clear, neither actually lied... they exaggerated. US over emphasizes d day, while ignoring what US was doing before Pearl Harbor. Russia ignores a lot of the dealing with Hitler, then takes too much credit for the dumb luck of an early winter.

I think that will be true just about everywhere. Hitler should have never gotten to the point where he had the capability to execute his plan. The reasons he did have the capability and got so far early, are blemishes on the history of just about every nation that claimed victory in the end.

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but I don't think its a case that Britain doesn't know about what it did to Ireland, Ireland certainly goes on about it enough and every one grew up with the IRA.

That would be an accomplishment...

[Elegiac]

Dumb yank who just voted for the Democrats segregationist warmonger-in-chief, opposed Trump's takedown of troops in Afghanistan and is probably one of the those nauseating twats who think Kennedy was a great president for dropping agent orange on Vietnamese kids, thinks Brits are brainwashed racists. Yeah, they are, so are you, fucking hypocritical twat.

You see what is really racist is being rude about ethnic minorities. If you just murder foreign women and children THAT'S NOT RACIST!

Oh no, I failed the Corbynite purity test and riled them up and now they're gonna go do an antisemitism about it. Woe to me. /s

Anyway yeah, a federal United Kingdom would require an acknowledgement that "Britain" isn't so much a cultural construct as it is an exercise in English imperialism and I don't think that's a likely outcome for a few generations.