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  1. #1

    Why not make raid loot work like PvP loot?

    If there's one complaint I see all over the place, it's that raids don't drop enough loot, and I experience that too; often times I only get 1 item from a full 10/10 CN clear, maybe two if I'm lucky, and most of the time it's things I don't need that just end up getting vendored/traded to other people. The last time I did a Heroic clear, I ended up getting some leggings that I already have, and the token for an offhand...when I've already got a 213 2hander. So effectively nothing.

    But then I look at PvP and as far as I can tell, you just do the PvP activities, get points, and then buy the exact gear you want from the vendor. No loot drama, no RNG, no bullshit.

    Why can't PvE work like that? Just have bosses drop badges/points that we use to buy gear from vendors. No more getting pissed off at not having the right item drop, no more having 5 people whisper you "need that? need that? need that?" every time you get loot, no more getting things with the wrong stats, etc. You can funnel your points towards the items you want, instead of being at the mercy of loot RNG.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    If there's one complaint I see all over the place, it's that raids don't drop enough loot, and I experience that too; often times I only get 1 item from a full 10/10 CN clear, maybe two if I'm lucky, and most of the time it's things I don't need that just end up getting vendored/traded to other people. The last time I did a Heroic clear, I ended up getting some leggings that I already have, and the token for an offhand...when I've already got a 213 2hander. So effectively nothing.

    But then I look at PvP and as far as I can tell, you just do the PvP activities, get points, and then buy the exact gear you want from the vendor. No loot drama, no RNG, no bullshit.

    Why can't PvE work like that? Just have bosses drop badges/points that we use to buy gear from vendors. No more getting pissed off at not having the right item drop, no more having 5 people whisper you "need that? need that? need that?" every time you get loot, no more getting things with the wrong stats, etc. You can funnel your points towards the items you want, instead of being at the mercy of loot RNG.
    Blizzard:
    Instructions unclear, but we will nerf PvP gearing to closer match the misery of raiding.

  3. #3
    Short answer: Basic Pavlovian Pyschology

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    If there's one complaint I see all over the place, it's that raids don't drop enough loot, and I experience that too; often times I only get 1 item from a full 10/10 CN clear, maybe two if I'm lucky, and most of the time it's things I don't need that just end up getting vendored/traded to other people. The last time I did a Heroic clear, I ended up getting some leggings that I already have, and the token for an offhand...when I've already got a 213 2hander. So effectively nothing.

    But then I look at PvP and as far as I can tell, you just do the PvP activities, get points, and then buy the exact gear you want from the vendor. No loot drama, no RNG, no bullshit.

    Why can't PvE work like that? Just have bosses drop badges/points that we use to buy gear from vendors. No more getting pissed off at not having the right item drop, no more having 5 people whisper you "need that? need that? need that?" every time you get loot, no more getting things with the wrong stats, etc. You can funnel your points towards the items you want, instead of being at the mercy of loot RNG.
    I rather have less loot than pvp loot in pve... i like killing bosses and hoping for that specific loot piece.
    Otherwise just remove loot alltogether. The whole feeling of a game where you kill bosses who drop loot is gone otherwise.

    Honestly i think that would be 1.000.000 times worse than reducing the amount of loot further.

    Also you not getting loot doesnt make it overall bad. My guild does not have a huge problem. We start progressing into mythic right now. Everyone is around 213. Killed Denathrius heroic and the first two in Mythic today for the first time
    Last edited by VinceVega; 2021-02-08 at 09:46 PM.

  5. #5
    I could be fine with an upgrade system for PvE, where you can upgrade the base item you have (from M+/raid) to a level based upon the difficulty of content you've cleared. Outright buying gear off a vendor for PvE? That wouldn't be good as a general rule because PvE content already drops loot, and that aspect of the gearing system only works for PvP because there's no gear dropping from activities.

    Biggest complain I've seen in PvE gearing (not going to lie, I have this issue) is not being able to replace a couple slots because either a.) the item is too good even at lower ilvl that anything that drops can't replace it anyways, or b.) the item is really low ilvl because you can't get a replacement to drop. The solution to both of these is to allow a method of gear upgrading based upon the doing the activity at a high enough difficulty. The weekly vault would've been a perfect place to add a currency or gear upgrade path if none of your gear options were good, instead of we got stygia. Such a system doesn't have to exist solely in the vault, but it could be at least complimented.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cracked View Post
    Blizzard:
    Instructions unclear, but we will nerf PvP gearing to closer match the misery of raiding.
    I mean thats what they'll end up doing and they'll fall flat on their asses again when they find people aren't happy.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  7. #7
    10% chance to get loot is on average what it was before everything became loot pinata. in vanilla you got 4 items for 40 people. thats 10% chance. in bc in the 25 man raids you got 2 or 3 for 25 people. roughly the same percentage same in wrath unless you did hard modes. honeslty i havent had a hard time gearing at all. sure i got my roughly free 200 gear at the start, but im 215 now and i get like 1 piece of loot a week from the vault and 1 or 2 upgrades from the raid itself. I think thats fine honestly. i have yet to not get an upgrade every week out of my vault. where as in BC, i literally had my bow from karazan until i got the bow off illidan because no weapon ever dropped. its all rng i suppose, but i honestly am ok with how the raid items work... Dungeons on the other hand seem slightly stingy with loot.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Subrias View Post
    in vanilla you got 4 items for 40 people.
    Why do people keep saying this? There are almost no items in vanilla that "40 people" all want.

  9. #9
    well we had badge vendors in the past and it was alright but a mmorpg needs that element of surprise of not knowing if u get/when u get that item u want

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Subrias View Post
    10% chance to get loot is on average what it was before everything became loot pinata. in vanilla you got 4 items for 40 people. thats 10% chance. in bc in the 25 man raids you got 2 or 3 for 25 people. roughly the same percentage same in wrath unless you did hard modes. honeslty i havent had a hard time gearing at all. sure i got my roughly free 200 gear at the start, but im 215 now and i get like 1 piece of loot a week from the vault and 1 or 2 upgrades from the raid itself. I think thats fine honestly. i have yet to not get an upgrade every week out of my vault. where as in BC, i literally had my bow from karazan until i got the bow off illidan because no weapon ever dropped. its all rng i suppose, but i honestly am ok with how the raid items work... Dungeons on the other hand seem slightly stingy with loot.
    Vanilla is 2 drops in a 40 man except the end boss.

  11. #11
    Killing enemies and dropping loot is part of the charm. I do get the desire for deterministic rewards but at the same time there are some charm with loot drops.
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  12. #12
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    My question is more like: why did they switch away from PvP specific gear? PvE gearing should not be done via PvP, imo.
    Anything worth doing is worth over-doing. Moderation's for cowards.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Bumkin View Post
    well we had badge vendors in the past and it was alright but a mmorpg needs that element of surprise of not knowing if u get/when u get that item u want
    But PvP loot doesn't work that way. You do the activity, get the points, and buy the exact gear you want. No RNG, no """"element of surprise"""".

    You call it "element of surprise", I call it "dumb RNG bullshit that exists for no reason other than to keep us subscribed longer".

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    But PvP loot doesn't work that way. You do the activity, get the points, and buy the exact gear you want. No RNG, no """"element of surprise"""".

    You call it "element of surprise", I call it "dumb RNG bullshit that exists for no reason other than to keep us subscribed longer".
    If you're only playing the game to get gear so you can stop playing earlier, why even play in the first place? If you wanna gear through PvP then do it. Getting 1 item a week from a raid clear is completely normal and has been for the game's entire existence. Not sure where people have picked up this idea that every second boss should be giving them loot it's literally never been the case unless you were getting funneled by Master Loot. Even then it was very likely that only 1, maybe 2 good items would drop in a single clear of a 10 boss raid.

    It's been this exact way since Personal loot was introduced, and nothing is going to change it at this point. Even if Blizzard doubled the boss drops, people would just be complaining that "everyone but me got loot".

  15. #15
    I've said it once and I'll say it again and I'll say it for pretty much ever

    YOU ARE PLAYING THE WRONG GENRE

  16. #16
    Introduce Valor points again. To upgrade a piece of gear, that you OBTAINED through content, by 0/3 - 3/3 Upgrade. Where 3/3 is a 9 Ilvl increase.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    Why do people keep saying this? There are almost no items in vanilla that "40 people" all want.
    You are kind of missing his point here though:

    Lets take Molten Core as an example.
    There are 10 bosses in MC.
    Each boss drops 4 pieces of loot.
    Every Character has 15 loot slots (lets call it 12 for sake of argument that not every slot will have a piece of gear all classes want).

    10 bosses x 4 pieces of loot is 40 pieces of loot in a run.
    12 Equipment slots x 40 characters you would need 12 complete runs of MC to gear every character with every slot in MC gear, and that's assuming a PERFECT drop rate for "needed" gear. No wasted drops. No "this is the 5th week in a row boss X dropped item Y that nobody in the raid needs because everyone who could use it already has it".

    Thats 4 months of full clearing MC to even remotely come close to getting everything everyone in your raid needs. Even if you chop that back to just 10 item slots (the 8 main gear slots + weapon and 1 extra for Cape/Ring/Trinket) that still leaves 10 weeks of perfect drops. And since most bosses in MC have like 20 items in their loot tables, your chances of getting perfect drops every week to cater to the needs of the raid is effectively 0.

    Pretty sure that the current drop rate of gear under the personal loot system is probably pretty competitive to expecting to take approximately 4+ Months to get "everything" you need out of a raid.
    Last edited by Surfd; 2021-02-09 at 06:25 AM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Surfd View Post
    You are kind of missing his point here though:

    Lets take Molten Core as an example.
    There are 10 bosses in MC.
    Each boss drops 4 pieces of loot.
    Every Character has 15 loot slots (lets call it 12 for sake of argument that not every slot will have a piece of gear all classes want).

    10 bosses x 4 pieces of loot is 40 pieces of loot in a run.
    12 Equipment slots x 40 characters you would need 12 complete runs of MC to gear every character with every slot in MC gear, and that's assuming a PERFECT drop rate for "needed" gear. No wasted drops. No "this is the 5th week in a row boss X dropped item Y that nobody in the raid needs because everyone who could use it already has it".

    Thats 4 months of full clearing MC to even remotely come close to getting everything everyone in your raid needs. Even if you chop that back to just 10 item slots (the 8 main gear slots + weapon and 1 extra for Cape/Ring/Trinket) that still leaves 10 weeks of perfect drops. And since most bosses in MC have like 20 items in their loot tables, your chances of getting perfect drops every week to cater to the needs of the raid is effectively 0.

    Pretty sure that the current drop rate of gear under the personal loot system is probably pretty competitive to expecting to take approximately 4+ Months to get "everything" you need out of a raid.
    MC bosses (and the other 40 mans) drop 2 items not 4 except the last boss (Rag/Nef/Cthun/KT).

  19. #19
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    After 26 weeks of clearing MC on classic i still did not get all my gear from MC. Also bosses usually only drop 2 sometimes 3 pieces.

    Redding the chat some people are playing the wrong game
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    If there's one complaint I see all over the place, it's that raids don't drop enough loot, and I experience that too; often times I only get 1 item from a full 10/10 CN clear, maybe two if I'm lucky, and most of the time it's things I don't need that just end up getting vendored/traded to other people. The last time I did a Heroic clear, I ended up getting some leggings that I already have, and the token for an offhand...when I've already got a 213 2hander. So effectively nothing.

    But then I look at PvP and as far as I can tell, you just do the PvP activities, get points, and then buy the exact gear you want from the vendor. No loot drama, no RNG, no bullshit.

    Why can't PvE work like that? Just have bosses drop badges/points that we use to buy gear from vendors. No more getting pissed off at not having the right item drop, no more having 5 people whisper you "need that? need that? need that?" every time you get loot, no more getting things with the wrong stats, etc. You can funnel your points towards the items you want, instead of being at the mercy of loot RNG.
    Because filling a weekly bar with resources (conquest), then buying the gear you want is boring as fuck.
    Sure, its efficient as fuck, but its also about as interesting as grocery shopping.

    Hunting for loot drops is imo a core part of pve. Without it i feel like pve will lose part of its identity. Theres a real risk that raids would go the same way as challengemode in mop/wod, done once then ignored by the vast majority of participants.
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