Improving Havoc talents.

[Azafuse]

Hello everyone, as the title says, i want to see what as a comunity we can do to improve our talents and how we can do it based on previous iterations of the class.

Level 15: No changes.
Level 25: No changes.
Level 30 row: Replace "Unbound Chaos" with our legion artifact trait "Anguish of the Deceiver" (wowdb.com/spells/201473-anguish-of-the-deceiver).
Level 35 row: For this one i would buff "Desperate instincts", maybe a 10% more damage reduction and make the 35% proc be separated of our on use Blur.
Level 40 row: In this one i would make "Essence break" a passive effect that is triggered when we pop Immolation Aura.
Level 45 row: No changes.
Level 50 row: Replace "Momentum" with our old legion talent "Chaos blades" (wowdb.com/spells/211048-chaos-blades).

What do you think of the proposed changes and what are your own ideas for improving the talents and the spec?

[Stacie]

15:
Blind Fury - Leave as is
Demonic Appetite - 35 fury instead of 30.
Felblade - Leave as is

25:
Insatiable Hunger - Leave as is
Burning hatred - over 4 seconds instead of 6
Demon blade - Leave as is

30:
Trial of Ruin - Leave as is
Unbound Chaos - Increase the damage slightly.
Glaive Tempest - Leave as is

35:
Soul Rending - REMOVE - NEW TALENT: Cleansed by Flame - Immolation Aura dispels all magical effects on you when cast.
Desperate Instincts - REWORKED INTO When you blade dance you take 50% less damage for the next 2 seconds.
Netherwalk - Leave as is.

40:
Cycle of hatred - Leave as is
First blood - REMOVE this should be made baseline! - NEW TALENT: Relentless Onslaught - Chaos Strike has a 5.0% chance to trigger a second Chaos Strike.
Essence Break - REMOVE - REPLACED WITH: Fel Barrage - tone damage down to be inline with others on this row.

45:
Unleased Power- Leave as is
Master of the Glaive - Leave as is
Fel Eruption- Leave as is

50:
Demonic - Increase from 6 to 8 seconds.
Momentum - REMOVED - NEW TALENT: Growing Inferno - Immolation Aura's damage increases by 5.0% each time it deals damage.
Fel Barrage - REMOVED - NEW TALENT: - Something to do with blade dance buffing it somehow. Maybe allow it to hit more targets, or first targets harder, or add a debuff to the target so they take more damage for a few seconds.

Would probably need some tuning to tone down AOE with the above due to the immolation aura increases. Darkness also needs to be more powerful to compete with things such as AMZ and Shout. Would love to see it at 50% or maybe even have a chance to remove a debuff when stepped into or something.

Meh i am no class designer I'm sure the above is totally flawed. We need to bake loads of that borrowed power in though so the class feels more complete baseline. The idea behind my choices above was to make 3 distinct playstyles. An Immolation aura playstyle, demonic eye beam playstyle or a blade dance playstyle.

If they want to fix things now somewhat with Band-Aids, Buff the demonic window from 6 to 8 seconds, Increase chaos strike damage around 10-15%. Add some survivability so we have a chance in PVP, and do something with darkness so its more inline with other utility or tone down others.

I think our worst rows are the Level 40 and 50. Momentum, first blood and essence break more specifically. Those are what i would focus on next expan if i had to pick 3.

[Rogfaroth]

I don't agree with removing Momentum - I think this is exactly one of the things we need where it is harder to pull off and can be risky on some bosses but the pay-off should be slightly higher to reward that extra risk.
I play Momentum currently and like it a lot.

[Lollis]

Momentum is the talent that makes Havoc fun to play. The problem is that it can screw you over on fights where movement is undesired.
Maybe make it proc off of Felblade (and possibly put Felblade as a baseline ability)

[Serodaris]

15:
Blind Fury - Leave as is
Demonic Appetite - leave as is
Felblade - baseline and do chaos damage . New Talent: reduce fury cost flat 5-20 % I don't know what would be balanced.

25:
Insatiable Hunger - also switch it to chaos damage
Burning hatred - also switch it to chaos damage
Demon blade - chaos not shadow damage

30:
Trial of Ruin - Leave as is
Unbound Chaos - eyebeam brands the target. The debuff increase our chaos damage x% for 30 sec
Glaive Tempest - Leave as is

35:
Soul Rending - For every (x) fury we spend we heal our self for (x) %
Desperate Instincts - also give darkness a flat 20 % damage reduction.
Netherwalk - Leave as is.

40:
Cycle of hatred - Leave as is
First blood - REMOVE this should be made baseline! - NEW TALENT: blood let - the talent from Legion, 5 target cap
Essence Break - chaos strike teleport us behind the target 10 yard range. Increase the damage from chaos strike about x%.

45:
Unleased Power- Leave as is
Master of the Glaive - should be baseline. The talent increase the slow to 70%. Or if you get hit twice you get roots for 2 sec.
Fel Eruption- Leave as is

50:
Demonic - Increase from 6 to 8 seconds.
Momentum - reduce also the CD from fel rush about 2 sec.
Fel Barrage - reduce channeling time to 1,5 sec or bring back the old barrage so we could use it on range while we can't go melee.

Blade dance also chaos damage.

After this balance our mastery to useful.

So we use our mastery with more spells.
The other changes bring 2 new buttons Baseline st felblade and blade dance.
We also get better group or self support with the darkness and reworked leech talent.
We also could switch between chaos strike or mid range build if we can't go melee because of boss or dungeons mechanics. So we have something to hold our dps with blood let.

This would make havoc for me more fun and give us more verity I think.
The new talent and our overall damage must be balanced new for sure but I think atm the x % damage buff doesn't help us

[psyquest]

Got to stop guys asking for design change. it will not happen, Blizzard will never put new talents in the middle of an xpac.

So what is left?

Simple. Where do havoc sucks hard? How to make it better, without making it overpowered, without bringing the drove of pvp noobs raging to the forum because havoc is OP, without making havoc god like in aoe.

Two areas we suck in:

Single target is shite in pve.
Survival in pvp could be better.

Now the problem is the same one warrior have (they are very good in pvp and bad in pvp): if you make the ST better in pve, how to make it reasonable in pvp since blizzard is stubbornly hesistant in making spells react differently in pvp/pve.

Things are harder that what they seem. You guys can come up with amazing new spells and talents: blizzard can't do any of that until 10.x

[Serodaris]

Got to stop guys asking for design change. it will not happen, Blizzard will never put new talents in the middle of an xpac.

So what is left?

Simple. Where do havoc sucks hard? How to make it better, without making it overpowered, without bringing the drove of pvp noobs raging to the forum because havoc is OP, without making havoc god like in aoe.

Two areas we suck in:

Single target is shite in pve.
Survival in pvp could be better.

Now the problem is the same one warrior have (they are very good in pvp and bad in pvp): if you make the ST better in pve, how to make it reasonable in pvp since blizzard is stubbornly hesistant in making spells react differently in pvp/pve.

Things are harder that what they seem. You guys can come up with amazing new spells and talents: blizzard can't do any of that until 10.x

They rework some talents a lot in Legion after the first content.

Warrior is simple i think. Reduce grp support and buff the st abilitys slam and overpower. So in pvp they aren't op.
Only condemn and the grp sup is a bit out of control in rated arena not their overall damage nearly every melee does more damage in arena.

For dh hot fix arena: bring blade dance parry again
And increase cs damage in pve and pvp about 10~30%
So I think we would be fine but stay a bit boring because spam 1 ability isn't fun for me

[George839]

Keep it up...

[TyrannicalPuppy]

HELL no you ain't removing Momentum but keeping Demon Blades. You want to remove the most fun playstyle in the game, but keep one that replaces a button with an empowered auto-attack?

Hell. To. The. No.

[Alexplode]

Momentum is the talent that makes Havoc fun to play. The problem is that it can screw you over on fights where movement is undesired.
Maybe make it proc off of Felblade (and possibly put Felblade as a baseline ability)

Momentum was never good in practice, you need to use fel rush to increase your overall dps and wasting movement cooldowns and possibly standing in fire/killing raid members is pretty bad.

Also you can say that you need to use with skill or stop fel rushing during those dangrous faces but the reality is that huge amount of bosses will have dont stand on fire mechanics that if you stop using it, does not matter oh well it sims its just a dps lost and the worst talent on that tier.

- - - Updated - - -

Got to stop guys asking for design change. it will not happen, Blizzard will never put new talents in the middle of an xpac.

So what is left?

Simple. Where do havoc sucks hard? How to make it better, without making it overpowered, without bringing the drove of pvp noobs raging to the forum because havoc is OP, without making havoc god like in aoe.

Two areas we suck in:

Single target is shite in pve.
Survival in pvp could be better.

Now the problem is the same one warrior have (they are very good in pvp and bad in pvp): if you make the ST better in pve, how to make it reasonable in pvp since blizzard is stubbornly hesistant in making spells react differently in pvp/pve.

Things are harder that what they seem. You guys can come up with amazing new spells and talents: blizzard can't do any of that until 10.x

old post but there is hope my dude, they just did change some talents 9.1 ptr.

[psyquest]

Momentum was never good in practice, you need to use fel rush to increase your overall dps and wasting movement cooldowns and possibly standing in fire/killing raid members is pretty bad.

Also you can say that you need to use with skill or stop fel rushing during those dangrous faces but the reality is that huge amount of bosses will have dont stand on fire mechanics that if you stop using it, does not matter oh well it sims its just a dps lost and the worst talent on that tier.

- - - Updated - - -




old post but there is hope my dude, they just did change some talents 9.1 ptr.

Indeed they have made some changes to our single target dps, I hope there is more to come. Currently no on is sure how we are going to be doing compared to other classes. I have had a bad first tier. Cleared the raid in mythic but always felt "carried".

[bayne2525]

It's not true in legion they add a new talent in the middle of the expansion i thing he was chaos strike splash dmg

[JeckThron]

Have you guys watched this, full metal alchemist?

[Nzembwamugumbwalchu]

Baseline

blade dance / death sweep - no longer has a fury cost and generate 10 fury / target hit , first blood talent merged into it, main target takes greater damage
chaos strike - fine, annihilation now always deals critical strike and its damage is increased by your critical chance

Talents

15 blind fury - fine | demonic appetite - fine | felblade - make it do chaos damage

25 insatiable hunger - fine | burning hatred - 100 fury over 10sec | demon blades - make it do chaos damage and 100% chance autoattacks generate fury

30 trail of ruin - fine | unbound chaos - remove & replace with - glowing inferno - immolation aura increases in dmg each time it deals dmg | glaive tempest - make it swirl around you instead of on the ground

35 soul rending - fine | desperate instincts - fine | netherwalk - fine

40 cycle of hatred - eye beam cd reduced by 1sec for each 100 fury spent, not just extra chaos strikes | first blood - make baseline & replace with - blademaster - blade dance / death sweep cause your next X chaos strikes / annihilations equal to targets hit by blade dance / deathsweep to also strike all nearby up to 8 targets for 10% dmg | essence break - make it trigger on blade dance / death sweep, duration reduced to 4sec

45 unleashed power - fine | master of the glaive - fine | fel eruption - make it deal massive damage like in previous expansions

50 demonic - fine | momentum - also gives 1 more additional fel rush charges and fel rush generate fury | fel barrage - reduce its cd by 1sec / 10 fury spent

[shimerra]

Momentum is the talent that makes Havoc fun to play. The problem is that it can screw you over on fights where movement is undesired.
Maybe make it proc off of Felblade (and possibly put Felblade as a baseline ability)

While it's fun I'm still a sucker for demonic. The big issue I have with momentum is it either has to be so good it's basically the only choice for that row in all situations except fights that smack down any movement or it's trash because it's not worth the potential DPS loss of fucking it up from other talents. They can't seem to hit a nice sweet spot.

[ByMartinLandau04]

While it's fun I'm still a sucker for demonic. The big issue I have with momentum is it either has to be so good it's basically the only choice for that row in all situations except fights that smack down any movement or it's trash because it's not worth the potential DPS loss of fucking it up from other talents. They can't seem to hit a nice sweet spot.

I am a sucker for anything where I can find the right base. Havoc is synonymous with base. And not allowing the gerbils to run over your captains. Well demonic too.

[shade3891]

Lets go crazy =)

Felblade -> (made baseline, but generate only 20 fury)
First blood -> (baseline)

Demonic Blades
Your auto attacks generate fury and deal additional chaos damage and have a chance to make you next Blade dance trigger twice. (Replaces Demon's Bite.) (Passive)
Demonic Appetite
Every 5 seconds shatter an lesser soul fragment from an nearby enemy. Consuming any soul fragment grants Fury. (Passive)
Fel pact
For the next 10 seconds fury cost is reduced by 70% at the cost of 15% of your maximum health. (CD 60 sec)

Blind Fury
Eye Beam no longer cost fury and the attack last 50% longer. (Passive)
Burning hatred
Demon's Bite leaves an open wound on your enemy increasing damage taken from your next Chaos Strike by 15%. (Passive)
Growing Inferno
Immolation Aura's damage increases by 4% each time Immolation Aura deals damage. (Passive)

Fel Storm
Fel Rush leaves a burn on every enemy hit dealing chaos damage and for every enemy hit increase your agility by 2% for 15 seconds. (Up to 20%)
Momentum
Both Fel Rush and Vengeful Retreat's cooldowns are reduced to 5 sec. Fel Rush increases damage done by you for 10% for 10 sec. (Passive)
Unbound Chaos
Activating Chaos Nova increases the damage of your next Chaos Strike by 300%. (Passive)

Soul Rending
During combat you heal for 3% of your maximum health every 5 sec. If you are at full health, you generate 5 fury. (Passive)
Desperate Instincts
All damage taken when Blur is active or when standing in Darkness is dealt to you over 20 seconds instead. (Passive)
Netherwalk
Slip into the nether, increasing movement speed by 100% and become immune to all damage and effects, but unable to attack. Lasts 10 sec.

Glaive Tempest
When Blade Dance ends you launch two demonic glaives in a whirlwind of energy, causing chaos damage over 3 sec to all nearby enemies. (Passive)
Blades of Ruin (Passive)
For every enemy target hit by or Chaos Strike or Blade Dance reduce the cooldown of Immolation Aura by 0.4 seconds, up to a maximum of 22 sec. (Passive)
Essence Break
Chaos Strike now also hits all enemies near your target for 25% damage. (Passive)

Unleased Power
Removes the Fury cost of Chaos Nova and reduces its cooldown by 33%, also allows you to move when casting Eye Beam. (Passive)
Fel Eruption
Impales the target dealing chaos damage and stuns them for 4 sec.
Bonds of Fel
Binds a target to a location, snaring by 40% and inflicting minor chaos damage every half-second. When broken, the bond explodes stunning the target and targets within 5 yards of it for 2 seconds.

Demonic Origins
Eye Beam causes you to enter demon form for 7 sec after it finishes dealing damage. Also the cooldown of Metamorphosis is reduced by 1,5 min and its duration is reduced by 15 sec. (Passive)
Cascading Eyes
The remaining cooldown on Eye Beam is reduced by 0.4 sec each time Eye Beam hits an enemy, up to a maximum of 22 sec. (Passive)
Fel Barrage
When you use Eye Beam you also release a huge torrent of Fel energy, inflicting Chaos damage to all enemies within 8 yds. (Passive)

[Nitedrifter]

Lets go crazy =)

Felblade -> (made baseline, but generate only 20 fury)
First blood -> (baseline)

Binds a target to a location, snaring by 40% and inflicting minor chaos damage every half-second. When broken, the bond explodes stunning the target and targets within 5 yards of it for 2 seconds.

I would only replace:
Bonds of Fel - with the SIGIL that Vengeance has that pulls all mobs to a central location and upon expiration explodes and/or slows the mobs.

[Skayth]

Ehhh looking at how they are doing druid and dh, I doubt any of our talents will be baseline. Rather, I think they plan to make half the shit that is baseline into talents, leaving us basically with demons bite and chaos strike as starters.

Would be nice tho

[XMD7007]

Master of the Glaive should be baseline, then replaced by Bloodlet.

I think Master of the Glaive will be easily accessible in the Dragonflight talent trees, hopefully NO choice node where we have to give up a stun for it (which no one would ever do in PvP).