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  1. #381
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Also, I have stated my ideal utopia involves jurisdiction based on people, not on land. There's no need to move anywhere.
    But your ideals have never worked!. If they had we wouldn't be arguing now.

  2. #382
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    The good thing about his, is that you can also choose to not partake.

    That's the best part, you are not obligated to be a part of it. Man, problem solved.
    If you're within their jurisdiction, you are obligated.

    That's how governance and jurisdiction works.

    Also, a lot of us aren't exclusively focused on our own personal self-interest. We have a concern for the welfare and prosperity of our fellow humans. Y'know, basic human empathy and compassion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Then. Don't. Fucking. Go.

    I simply support their freedom to do it.
    To enact laws to limit citizens' freedoms in any Constitutional manner they choose, beholden solely to their board of directors and not the people over which they have jurisdiction?

    You're not talking about freedom, in general, you're talking about a "freedom" to govern others", and in this case, unlike representative government, it is not made up of the governed and indeed has no reason to care at all about the interests of the governed.

    At best, you're relying on State and Federal laws to limit how bad it can get, because without those legal structures above it, this is a nightmare scenario for anyone but an authoritarian oligarch.

  3. #383
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Again, that's not a yes or no.

    Are 12 year olds eloping to fuck like rabbits cool in your utopia?

    And if the answer is, "The government will decide." then you don't have a utopia, you have a fucking Hollywood stage set with no actual substance.
    Again, mein duden, people are free to make their own choices.

    What kids do is not really any of my business. If you want to be fascinated by children fucking, then... you may have issues.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Joe View Post
    He is probably confused cause you don't seem to understand the words you are using.
    And I said that jurisdiction would be based on people, not on physical borders.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    But your ideals have never worked!. If they had we wouldn't be arguing now.
    My ideals have never been tried, and won't be tried until long after I'm dead, if ever.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  4. #384
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Again, mein duden, people are free to make their own choices.

    What kids do is not really any of my business. If you want to be fascinated by children fucking, then... you may have issues.
    So that's a functional yes then.

    And I go there because it's an extreme. Because it's to make a point of the absurdity of this notion. But that's all I'll say on the matter.

  5. #385
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    It is a fucking choice, don't fucking move there.

    I know this is something you don't quite grasp, because you are doing your fucking damndest to deny personal responsibility... but that's not my fault.

    Nobody is forcing you to move to the fucking desert and join this.
    Dude, I am financially stable and able to do what I well please now. I am almost 40 years old and was telling you about my late teens to twenties. I joined the military back in 2012.

    My past isn’t your fault and never claimed it was, your refusal to accept the point I am making using it as an example as entirely your fault though.

    Don’t move there isn’t an option to many and you still have sidestepped all the abuses they bring to support them.

    So, try again and have some intellectual honesty this time for a change.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  6. #386
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    If you're within their jurisdiction, you are obligated.

    That's how governance and jurisdiction works.



    To enact laws to limit citizens' freedoms in any Constitutional manner they choose, beholden solely to their board of directors and not the people over which they have jurisdiction?

    You're not talking about freedom, in general, you're talking about a "freedom" to govern others", and in this case, unlike representative government, it is not made up of the governed and indeed has no reason to care at all about the interests of the governed.

    At best, you're relying on State and Federal laws to limit how bad it can get, because without those legal structures above it, this is a nightmare scenario for anyone but an authoritarian oligarch.
    So, don't fucking go.

    This is voluntaryism, and you can have whatever flavor you want. I support your freedom to set up a fascist utopia, if you so desire.

    If you want to run a hippy commune, go fucking wild.

    You are equating what i personally want, versus what I'm supporting in this possible venture. I want libertarianism, but I'm supporting this small step towards a voluntary government (and we have no idea what type of government it would be).
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  7. #387
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    So that's a functional yes then.

    And I go there because it's an extreme. Because it's to make a point of the absurdity of this notion. But that's all I'll say on the matter.
    Before he says it, reductio ad extremis or reductio ad absurdum is an entirely legitimate attack on the logic of an argument. If the premises lead to a ridiculous or indefensibly extreme conclusion, then there is a flaw in those premises and the logic does not function. It isn't a straw man, as so many like to think, it's just taking the argument to the furthest conclusion.

  8. #388
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    So that's a functional yes then.

    And I go there because it's an extreme. Because it's to make a point of the absurdity of this notion. But that's all I'll say on the matter.
    That's a subject I'm not going to talk about that subject in these threads. I've been infracted twice in two days. That seems like a subject that is probably best avoided here.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Dude, I am financially stable and able to do what I well please now. I am almost 40 years old and was telling you about my late teens to twenties. I joined the military back in 2012.

    My past isn’t your fault and never claimed it was, your refusal to accept the point I am making using it as an example as entirely your fault though.

    Don’t move there isn’t an option to many and you still have sidestepped all the abuses they bring to support them.

    So, try again and have some intellectual honesty this time for a change.
    And yet, you were doing everything you could to not take responsibility for your position just a short while ago.

    Your past was your fault.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  9. #389
    The Insane PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    No, it's not about that, they can form whatever government they like, as far as I'm concerned.
    I know but a good socio-economic ideology probably can't function properly unless it becomes universal everywhere. So even if socialists(or fascists, or libertarians) form their own perfect state it won't be sustainable for as long as they can be compared to the alternatives, or militarily wiped out in the case of a libertarian society.
    Last edited by PC2; 2021-02-06 at 04:43 AM.
    Optimism! (HumanProgress.org)

  10. #390
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    So, don't fucking go.
    Again, I have a basic level of human compassion and I'm interested in the welfare of all people, not just myself.

    If you told me "Hey, you're not a German Jew, if you're Jewish and the Nazi Reich bothers you, just don't go!" that would be the same bullshit argument you're making, here.

    This is voluntaryism, and you can have whatever flavor you want. I support your freedom to set up a fascist utopia, if you so desire.
    And there's the fundamental flaw with anarchism and all related ideological views, including Voluntaryism.

    The moment your neighbour creates an expansionist authoritarian regime, you have no answer. It must be okay for them to do so! And you must accept when they step on your neck! Because that's how you define "freedom"; you cannot see impinging on their "freedom" to subjugate you and everyone you know.

  11. #391
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    Dude, I am financially stable and able to do what I well please now. I am almost 40 years old and was telling you about my late teens to twenties. I joined the military back in 2012.

    My past isn’t your fault and never claimed it was, your refusal to accept the point I am making using it as an example as entirely your fault though.

    Don’t move there isn’t an option to many and you still have sidestepped all the abuses they bring to support them.

    So, try again and have some intellectual honesty this time for a change.
    It's an option to not move there now, because there's nothing fucking there. If you are not forced to move there now, you are not going to be forced to move there, later.

    Ask yourself, what happens if you don't move?

    Does someone shoot you? Nope.

    Does someone arrest you? Nope.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Again, I have a basic level of human compassion and I'm interested in the welfare of all people, not just myself.

    If you told me "Hey, you're not a German Jew, if you're Jewish and the Nazi Reich bothers you, just don't go!" that would be the same bullshit argument you're making, here.



    And there's the fundamental flaw with anarchism and all related ideological views, including Voluntaryism.

    The moment your neighbour creates an expansionist authoritarian regime, you have no answer. It must be okay for them to do so! And you must accept when they step on your neck! Because that's how you define "freedom"; you cannot see impinging on their "freedom" to subjugate you and everyone you know.
    I have compassion as well. I am willing to help those who cannot help themselves, or are too young to properly do it.

    Thank God I'm not an anarchist.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I know but a good socio-economic ideology probably can't function properly unless it becomes universal everywhere. So even if socialists(or fascists, or libertarians) form their own perfect state it won't be sustainable for as long as they can be compared to the alternatives, or militarily wiped out in the case of an libertarian society.
    Then their little utopia fails, and we get data.

    That's what experiments are all about.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  12. #392
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I have compassion as well. I am willing to help those who cannot help themselves, or are too young to properly do it.
    And yet, you oppose any systemic attempt to do so.

    Thank God I'm not an anarchist.
    Voluntaryism is a flavour of anarcho-capitalism, and one directly opposed to political governance.

    So either you don't know what Voluntaryism even is, or you're not actually being honest, here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntaryism

  13. #393
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    And yet, you were doing everything you could to not take responsibility for your position just a short while ago.

    Your past was your fault.
    No, try again. I took the position that I couldn’t find work and that “just get a job” wasn’t an option and I was trying and even joined the military and moved and went to near starving myself to make it. So your so called “choices” didn’t exist in that situation.

    You are the one who tried to turn it into whining to avoid the flaws in your logic.

    And I can see how it was my fault, I could have started lying on my job applications a out my college background to avoid getting weeded out or I could have sold drugs as an alternative.
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  14. #394
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Thank God I'm not an anarchist.
    O you mean there will be laws? Really?

  15. #395
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    And yet, you oppose any systemic attempt to do so.



    Voluntaryism is a flavour of anarcho-capitalism, and one directly opposed to political governance.

    So either you don't know what Voluntaryism even is, or you're not actually being honest, here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntaryism
    Nope, I support voluntary efforts to do so.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    No, try again. I took the position that I couldn’t find work and that “just get a job” wasn’t an option and I was trying and even joined the military and moved and went to near starving myself to make it. So your so called “choices” didn’t exist in that situation.

    You are the one who tried to turn it into whining to avoid the flaws in your logic.

    And I can see how it was my fault, I could have started lying on my job applications a out my college background to avoid getting weeded out or I could have sold drugs as an alternative.
    So, you are denying responsibility, as I stated.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    O you mean there will be laws? Really?
    Yes, governments tend to have laws.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  16. #396
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Nope, I support voluntary efforts to do so.
    Either you support the abolishment of the State as a concept, as Voluntaryists do, or you're not a Voluntaryist to begin with. It's one of the core aspects of the ideology.

    And if you support the abolishment of the State, you're some flavor of anarchist.

  17. #397
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Yes, governments tend to have laws.
    So..there's enforcement...and a strong government nedds a military.

  18. #398
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Either you support the abolishment of the State as a concept, as Voluntaryists do, or you're not a Voluntaryist to begin with. It's one of the core aspects of the ideology.
    The aspect of it I prefer, is that participation is not forced.

    Voluntaryism can inevitably lead to socialism, as well. Communes are a great microcosm, and a perfect experiment to see how they operate.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    So..there's enforcement...and a strong government nedds a military.
    Now you are walking your own path. I simply support the existence of some laws.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

  19. #399
    @Machismo
    I am off to bed, honestly your excuses and projecting just to avoid thinking is bit much.

    So, I will leave with this question...


    Even if you say you don’t support just company towns, you do support them. How do you propose to avoid the same abuses historically when they were tried before?

    I am not asking for your “just don’t move there” cop out excuse. I am asking for you to give a REAL answer.


    So point blank, how do you intend to prevent those abuses?
    Since we can't call out Trolls and Bad Faith posters and the Ignore function doesn't actually ignore it. Add
    "mmo-champion.com##li.postbitignored"
    to your ublock or adblock filter to actually ignore ignored posters. Now just need a way to ignore responses to them as well.

  20. #400
    Quote Originally Posted by Fugus View Post
    @Machismo
    I am off to bed, honestly your excuses and projecting just to avoid thinking is bit much.

    So, I will leave with this question...


    Even if you say you don’t support just company towns, you do support them. How do you propose to avoid the same abuses historically when they were tried before?

    I am not asking for your “just don’t move there” cop out excuse. I am asking for you to give a REAL answer.


    So point blank, how do you intend to prevent those abuses?
    That is a real answer. Just because you don't like it, doesn't really matter.

    if people willingly get abused, that's on them. Thy literally fucking volunteered for it. If a dude decides to get bitch slapped by a dominatrix, that's a choice he made.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    Multiculturalism hurts and kills. This happened before Trump and it would be happening without him. Racism arises from a multicultural society. If we were monocultural, people would not see issues through the lens of race.
    This is a poster saying that people are at fault for being the victims of terrorism, because they are not white.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfire View Post
    I hate personal freedom because people abuse it like a shiny new toy.

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