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  1. #1

    Why didn't the cosmic powers fight back the Legion, and how many worlds are left?

    The cosmic war has been going on for thousands of years -- but the Legion seemed to have unbalanced the entire cosmic hierarchy. The titans and the Pantheon, of course, were annihilated by Sargeras during their confrontation -- eliminating the main representatives of Order as their primary obstacle. However, as can be seen from Aluneth and the mana elementals, they are not the only representatives of the Arcane in existence, nor did Arcane itself suddenly collapse under their defeat; the Aspects and keepers' powers and abilities remained completely intact, for example, as did the Pillars of Creation they bestowed upon them.

    We understand the Burning Crusade, the Pantheon's destruction, the Scourge and the Lich King, they were all part of this complicated and elaborate secret scheme by the nathrezim to systematically undermine, cripple and destroy the other cosmic powers, including possibly the Pantheon of Death themselves -- but that does not explain why the others never at least tried to rally against the Legion.

    What about the forces of the naaru and their keepers? Why didn't they intercede to aid the Pantheon or even before Sargeras turned against them -- as the Light is apparently very effective against fel magic, and the naaru do not seem to be susceptible to the Legion in the same way? What about the forces of Life and Death, and the powers of the Void? What was Elune, or the Pantheon of Death in the Shadowlands, doing as the Burning Crusade overwhelmed and wiped out millions of worlds and systems, billions upon billions of lives? Did the Arbiter and the Covenants not care at all about the Legion's actions? What were the elemental forces of the cosmos doing against them? Were they not concerned at the extinction of countless races which their powers influenced and even fought for?

    And what about the void lords? They seemed to have mostly ignored the Legion entirely -- they even helped the Legion during their invasions against Azeroth, such as providing the ogres with a base in Blackrock Mountain, and the artifact weapons seem to be almost amused by their efforts (demons and dreams alike capable of corrupted; the end of all things unable to save the Legion from the Void, etc.) If they were so powerful, why not try to oppose the Legion openly? If Sargeras had sucessfully destroyed Azeroth, would it not have completely destroyed their plans? Launching several Old Gods into Argus -- or any other Legion world -- would have had devastating consequences, and we have seen their servants capable of dragging entire Legion outposts into the Nether to be permanently destroyed -- but why they did not intervene on a broader scale is unclear.

    Long has this one's time been coming. A true servant of the fallen titan, he seeks the doom of all things. As if that would really save them from the Void.
    Here you will see why the Legion's invasion is ultimately futile. All can be corrupted, dreams and demons alike.
    The God of the Deep writhes in his prison, breaking free ever so slowly. You should hurry and defeat the fallen titan... there are greater battles yet to fight.


    Does this not mean that the fel is always stronger than the arcane? That the titans are weak against the Legion? And Life is pretty all but destroyed? As Death has enveloped most of existence, rendering countless worlds uninhabitable and driving their native species to extinction, due to the Legion's genocidal actions? How does this make sense for a balanced conflict then? Haven't they already pretty much lost?

    It has been implied that thousands of planets -- perhaps even the vast majority of planets -- have been destroyed by the Legion -- but details regarding how many worlds are NOT touched by their influence remains extremely vague and unclear. How many planets are there remaining? Is Azeroth basically the last surviving world capable of sapient life? For example, the Ardenweald quest mentions that the heroes of Azeroth saved all worlds -- not saved the last surviving worlds, or the last several worlds -- but this is very ambiguous.
    Last edited by OwenBurton; 2021-02-06 at 07:51 PM.
    "Always you speak. Never do you listen! You ignore the lessons of Pandaria! You see, there is balance in all things. Wisdom etched in our very fur: Black and white. Darkness and light. When the last emperor hid our land from the rest of the world, he also preserved...our ancient enemy, the mantid. So it is with your Alliance and your Horde. They are not strong despite one another; they are strong BECAUSE of one another. You mistake your greatest strength for weakness. Do you see this?"

  2. #2
    The Insane Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    The void lords can’t come though them selfs so are trying to corrupt world souls.

    The narru were fighting the legion and who ever is above them like the void lords can’t come through.

    The Titans died.

    The elements are weak and corruptable.

    The pantheon of death are all about managing death and have no reason to care or act for the living.

    The pantheon of life don’t exist yet.

  3. #3
    prolly something about the heavy weights of every cosmic force can't just willynilly interfere with other cosmic forces and just because we see something as a huge deal doesn't mean it's at all important on the cosmic scale.

    edit:

    Also, I'm not sure the cosmic forces are at all united in any singular goal
    Last edited by mickybrighteyes; 2021-02-06 at 03:40 AM.

  4. #4
    As far as we know, not all agents of Order have the kind of immortality that beings like the Burning Legion do, or even if they do, maybe it's worse. The Legion can also take their souls and use those to power their efforts as well, and even corrupt agents of the Arcane. Even if an agent of Order were to try and un-corrupt an agent of the Legion, in an infinite amount of time against an infinite army the premise of the Legion I think is that eventually whatever forces there were did, ultimately, fall, eventually, after however much time that took. There could have been other worlds like Azeroth that did fight back and maybe even survived for thousands and tens of thousands of years undisturbed by the threat of the Legion until the Legion eventually corrupted or killed such an agent of Order and ultimately then secured their victory. It only takes a small gap, a small miniscule weakness once in the space of infinity for the Legion to find an opportunity and exploit it. An agent of Order may need to rest, and there is an infinite Legion all of which either don't need to or are expendable enough for that not to matter. Across an infinite universe of countless corrupted worlds, a situation may have arisen that even if an agent of Order was without reproach and so immutable in their defense and sustainability for these really long periods, the ultimate thing that they cannot protect against, that no agent of Order -- not even the Pantheon of Titans can protect against -- was their greatest, Sargeras, falling and ultimately being used against them. Sargeras would be summoned or march through the great endlessness of the universe to a world, and ultimately bring doom to it himself. He's presented as one of the greatest powers in the universe. So no matter how abnormally effective just one agent of Order would be against the Legion's infinite armies over an infinite amount of time, eventually Sargeras gets there and eventually he kicks them in the teeth. The only way to stop the Legion is to stop Sargeras, like we have, or to hide... undetected from the Legion, for an infinite amount of time. But the Legion has hounds, and deceptive infiltrators, and all sorts of ways to find and expose those who would hide from their sight... if anyone can even truly be lost to the vision of Sargeras.

  5. #5
    Psst.

    It's all shitty writing that they keep piling new shit on top of, all the while thinking they're deep and insightful and acting like it's always been that way behind the scenes.

    But like George Lucas, it's all just bullshit pulled straight out of their collective asses, and not even a fraction as brilliant as they themselves think it is.

    That's why.

  6. #6
    Herald of the Titans TigTone's Avatar
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    Have you seen how many worlds our universe has?

    Don’t get me wrong the burning legion killed many species but I doubt they made a serious dent in the amount of worlds there is.

    Sargeras Main goal was not to erases each planet one by one. It was to resurrect/corrupt the Titans, enslave Azeroth, and enslave Argus. And use their combined power to wipeout the universe in one go.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody Worth Knowing View Post
    Psst.

    It's all shitty writing that they keep piling new shit on top of, all the while thinking they're deep and insightful and acting like it's always been that way behind the scenes.

    But like George Lucas, it's all just bullshit pulled straight out of their collective asses, and not even a fraction as brilliant as they themselves think it is.

    That's why.
    How else do you develop an evolving story without a time machine may I ask?

    Can't wait for your answer, I got the feeling it'll be a good one.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by RainEls View Post
    How else do you develop an evolving story without a time machine may I ask?

    Can't wait for your answer, I got the feeling it'll be a good one.
    prolly don't retcon everything with a new source material that retcons itself within a couple years for starters.

    maybe also don't throw away every decent character while heavily falling back on the same 4-6 for every new story arc.

  9. #9
    It’s extremely vague for a reason. The more specific it gets the more the premise breaks down. Warcraft’s cosmic lore existed to make the threat of the Burning Legion strong, but at the same time it also created problems when Warcraft moved past them.

    Your questions stem from a new plot that will need retcons down the line to explain all this. Nothing new for this franchise.

  10. #10
    As much as we dislike the powers of Disorder/Fel and Shadow/Void. They are necessary for the cosmic balance and the destruction of one would likely spell doom for the cosmos itself.

    Not all cosmic force realize this. The Light for example cannot see a path other then it's own, hence why it actively in war with Disorder through the Naaru that raises the Army of the Light, the Lightbound and probably many more on different worlds.

  11. #11
    Ask the authors/writers.
    Do you hear the voices too?

  12. #12
    The Light opposed a worthy resistance against the Legion. The Army of the Light led by the Naaru was the main threat to Legion's dominance in the cosmos, but after thousands of years of guerrilla warfare they were exhausted.

    The Titans (Order) were wiped out by Sargeras right after he turned evil, so they couldn't do much.

    Life is worthless.

    Death is also worthless.

    And then there is the Void, clearly the most malevolent power in the cosmos, a power so great that Sargeras himself was driven mad by knowledge of it. But also a very difficult power to manifest in the material world. There's no doubt that, if the Void Lords found a way into the material plane, then the wretched Legion would be brought to its knees and Sargeras would beg for a quick death, but currently there's not much they can do. Suffice to say that half of the Legion's capital was infested by the Void via a Dark Naaru sealed in the Seat of the Triumvirate.
    Some will tell you that the Light is the only path. The only weapon that can stop the enemies of Azeroth. But we see alternatives. Many roads, many possibilities, that are open to us. There will be those who doubt you. Who question your resolve, your ability to harness powers that have caused the downfall of weaker wills. Together, we will prove them wrong.

  13. #13
    Stood in the Fire Fixxit the Gnome's Avatar
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    I interpret it as each force having their own realm separated from Azeroth's reality, which seems to be like a byproduct of Light and Shadow with influences from the other forces.

    Maybe, it's like most of the different forces are more concerned with their own reality rather than squabble over some happenstance.

    Perhaps they will build on this further if they decide to expand on The First Ones.
    - Dare not to sleep -

  14. #14
    At the time of our invasion on Antorus, the Burning Crusade was an ongoing effort. Portal Keeper Hasabel was maintaing the portal network to move the legion forces "between frontlines". There were "events" on Argus where you entered portals and defended yet-unclaimed worlds from the Legion. So, Azeroth definitely isn't the last world. There are multiple other discovered worlds and countless more undiscovered.

    As for the main question - cosmic powers reign in their spheres of influence. Sometimes there are incursions:

    - Old Gods are the incursion of Void

    - Lich King and Scourge are the incursion of Death

    - Ember Ward in Revendreth is the incursion of Light

    However, cosmic entities are most powerful in their own dimensions and much weaker outside of them. A real takeover is practically impossible, and has never happened in the history of the Universe.

    In Shadowlands lore it is suggested that Sargeras was deceived by the Dreadlords and grossly overrated the danger the Void posed. This caused the realm of order to be destroyed... from within. The only thing that could topple a Titan was another Titan. Sargeras was never the leader of "Disorder", similarly to how Void Naaru aren't the leaders of the void. He was the being of Order who decided to destroy his own realm of influence using the forces opposite to it.

    It's likely that other cosmic forces considered the whole Legion situation as an internal problem of Order. What eventually happened to the Titans is of course unprecedented, but it had no direct influence on the other cosmic forces. Ultimately, Sire Denathrius and Jailer considered this as opportunity to elevate Death. Legion was, as weird as it sounds, not a real threat.
    Quote Originally Posted by Friendlyimmolation View Post
    When an orc eats an orc, two orcs rip out of the orcs stomach, they eat each other and a brand new orc walks through the door, and then his chest explodes and 20 full grown orcs crawl out of his body. They then eat each other and the bodies until there are 3 orcs left. The mystery of the orc reproduction cycle.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by RainEls View Post
    How else do you develop an evolving story without a time machine may I ask?
    You plot out major elements and story beats of the universe you're creating, and expand from there. Tolkien, for example, did that very thing. There's even a term for the concept: A story bible. Which Warcraft sure as fuck didn't have until it was way too late.

    Warcraft is the exact opposite of it. Some shitty writers (and I'm using the word "writer" quite incorrectly here) just took some basic fantasy elements, reversed them ("look, OUR dark elves are the good guys and live in trees, while our high elves are the evil drow who torture angels!"), and tried to claim they were the pinnacle of creative writing. Then they pulled more and more shit out of their collective asses without a single solitary fucking care about how it all came together. "Dood, that's so kewl, I am a creative genius u guyz!!!" they said to themselves, like any 11-year-old Dungeon Master creating his shitty little game world does. And that's precisely what Warcraft is: A very, very shitty game world created by dipshits.

  16. #16
    real answer: because the legion was written wayyyy before any other "cosmic powers" and their big war for dominance existed. and the blizz writers are too retarded to come up with some explanation.

    in-lore answer: because the legion was a highly unnatural thing. demons, by their very nature, are not supposed to work together, they are chaotic und disordered. but then sargeras, a being of order, came along and formed them into a single army, working together and no longer against each other.
    thats why the legion became such a gigantic threat, because it was never supposed to exist in the natural way of things. it wasnt fully a force of disorder, it was a fusion of disorder and order. beings of disorder (demons) forced in a system and under supervision of a being of order (sargeras)
    Last edited by Houle; 2021-02-07 at 08:29 PM.
    The crooked shitposter with no eyes is watching from the endless thread.

    From the space that is everywhere and nowhere, the crooked shitposter feasts on memes.

    He has no eyes to see, but he dreams of infinite memeing and trolling.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    real answer: because the legion was written wayyyy before any other "cosmic powers" and their big war for dominance existed. and the blizz writers are too retarded to come up with some explanation.

    in-lore answer: because the legion was a highly unnatural thing. demons, by their very nature, are not supposed to work together, they are chaotic und disordered. but then sargeras, a being of order, came along and formed them into a single army, working together and no longer against each other.
    thats why the legion became such a gigantic threat, because it was never supposed to exist in the natural way of things. it wasnt fully a force of disorder, it was a fusion of disorder and order. beings of disorder (demons) forced in a system and under supervision of a being of order (sargeras)
    Then would the Legion have won eventually? Against the other cosmic powers, had we not intervened against them?
    "Always you speak. Never do you listen! You ignore the lessons of Pandaria! You see, there is balance in all things. Wisdom etched in our very fur: Black and white. Darkness and light. When the last emperor hid our land from the rest of the world, he also preserved...our ancient enemy, the mantid. So it is with your Alliance and your Horde. They are not strong despite one another; they are strong BECAUSE of one another. You mistake your greatest strength for weakness. Do you see this?"

  18. #18
    Titan HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
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    Order: All sorts of fucked. The Titans are gone and their souls are literally in the hands of Sargeras. The Keepers are recovering. The Aspects have no real power anymore. The realm of Order seems empty atm of useful Titans. And Azeroth is the last remaining one, tho she's a fetus atm.

    Life: We don't even know if there is a Pantheon of Life. Probably not though? Seems Eonar and the Winter Queen are part of the true leaders of Life tbh, or at the very least assumed command of it. Pretty sure the Wild Gods would mention a Life leadership, if there was one.

    Light: You'd have to have not played Legion whatsoever if you think the Light didn't do shit against them. The Naarus Keepers cannot enter reality.

    Death: Been focused on other things. The Jailer certainly didn't give two shits either.

    And Void: Old Gods weren't shit, and the Void Lords cannot enter reality.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by OwenBurton View Post
    Then would the Legion have won eventually? Against the other cosmic powers, had we not intervened against them?
    Considering Sargeras' Dark Pantheon is stated to be so powerful, that no power in the Cosmos could stop it IF the plan succeeded, yes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    real answer: because the legion was written wayyyy before any other "cosmic powers" and their big war for dominance existed. and the blizz writers are too retarded to come up with some explanation.

    in-lore answer: because the legion was a highly unnatural thing. demons, by their very nature, are not supposed to work together, they are chaotic und disordered. but then sargeras, a being of order, came along and formed them into a single army, working together and no longer against each other.
    thats why the legion became such a gigantic threat, because it was never supposed to exist in the natural way of things. it wasnt fully a force of disorder, it was a fusion of disorder and order. beings of disorder (demons) forced in a system and under supervision of a being of order (sargeras)
    Basically this. Mind you, Disorder has no "pantheon" or "real leadership" either. So, the Legion existing also kinda confused a lot of people, especially considering the Pantheon just fell out of the Cosmic map soon after VIA Sargeras dismantling them in combat.

  19. #19
    The Pantheon of death and the Shadowlands were probably cheering it all on, having anima orgies like 24/7.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    The pantheon of death are all about managing death and have no reason to care or act for the living.
    I don't know if the shadowlands has ever done anything to specifically target the living, but I feel you normally would care about your main resource. Look at what's going on as soon as the anima dried up. They need the cycle of life and death to happen.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by iamthedevil View Post
    The Pantheon of death and the Shadowlands were probably cheering it all on, having anima orgies like 24/7.
    Nah. They need a constant supply, not a one-shot big influx, so the Legion actually succeeding would be bad news for them.

    Though imo it's more down to the Legion vastly overestimating their own success. Inhabited planets seem common in this 'verse, and even if the Legion had destroyed one each second since Sargeras took Argus, they'd only have managed around 13 million by the time of Legion(exp).

    Now remember that the Milky Way alone has over 100 billion stars, most of which likely have planets. 13M planets out of an entire universe is next to nothing, and they clearly went after every planet that has even an inkling of life. They likely needed more than a second each, as well, so they probably got a lot less. Especially when one fought back and messed up their quota.

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