Would Mythic + be more enjoyable without a timer?

[Jastall]

The timer is fine but I'd like to relax the enemy forces BS. I get why it's there - it works against just doing skips and ignoring trash entirely - but to me you should not have to kill more trash than you'd do in a normal/heroic/M0 run and it feels like you have to.

Another approach would be to adjust the timer a bit for lower keys since things below 10 don't really upgrade you much over covenant or honor gear.

Yet another approach would be to relax the timer even more but to introduce death count. Instead of, say, a 30 minute timer, you get 50... but only X deaths where X isn't too low but also low enough that you can't just ignore deaths.

It's a lot less of a problem in Shadowlands M+ because most dungeons are quite linear. The enemy forces are only something to look out for in Plaguefall, Halls of Atonement and to a lesser extent Spires/Necrotic Wake. Knowing what to kill to trigger Prideful properly before every boss is more important than just filling the bar.

[Simulacrum]

Then you'd just bring 5 CC classes and kill 1 mob at a time. This also leans into these single-target specs being ideal for killing bosses. It would be incredibly boring and shitty.

[T-34]

That's not the same mechanic that's being discussed in this thread, though, and it would easily be solved by giving dungeon bosses enrages in M+. The issue with the timer in M+ is that it doesn't allow for downtime in between pulls.

So you want Blizzard to change dungeons in to 5-man raids? Then you might as well remove most of the trash between the bosses.
This thread is made by and supported by people who either don't find a particular activity fun or are unable to do that activity and instead of just doing what they lilke/find fun they want to deny other people their fun/challenging activity.

I don't like pvp, but I don't go around demanding that I have the right to win in the arena or a bg just because I feel "it is toxic that I can't win".

There is no issue with the timer in M+, there is an issue with people that can't accept that a particular activity is not for them.

[secondgasp]

challenging content without the timer would be fun but i would think dungeons or the content would need to be adapted for that. i don't think dungeons in their current iteration really warrant rewards for doing it timerless.

i would like to see challenge modes return. i think these can exist along side m+ as a for fun mode/different iteration of challenge and rewards similar to how torghast has its own wings and then twitsting corridors.

[Vasilisa]

I wish if there were 2 counters: 1 for deaths and another for time spent and the final reward would be based on this one which turned out better.

[Advent]

So you want Blizzard to change dungeons in to 5-man raids? Then you might as well remove most of the trash between the bosses.
This thread is made by and supported by people who either don't find a particular activity fun or are unable to do that activity and instead of just doing what they lilke/find fun they want to deny other people their fun/challenging activity.

I don't like pvp, but I don't go around demanding that I have the right to win in the arena or a bg just because I feel "it is toxic that I can't win".

There is no issue with the timer in M+, there is an issue with people that can't accept that a particular activity is not for them.

Fair enough, but I do get where they're coming from. If you enjoyed the harder heroics in TBC and the beginning of Cata, there really isn't any dungeon content for you unless you're into the frenetic, never-stop-gotta-go Mythic+ scene. Sure, you could run a group that doesn't bother with the timer, but it isn't really a sustainable method of playing the game, particularly if you want to try more difficult dungeons (Because you'll have to time a key eventually, which sort of defeats the purpose of imposing a slower run).

[Simple Rick]

Honestly no... it would just slow down the dungeon and create more drama as people get annoyed by people dying constantly. The timer acts as an effective filter to clean up pugs higher up.

[intenz]

Bad idea for the same reason that "hardcore" modes are terrible in arpgs, they just lead to overly defensive and uninspired gameplay. Possibly the only interesting thing about M+ is all the innovation that goes on and how routes and pulls get more extravagant as ilevels go up. This would all be gone without a timer, you would have a "safe" route through the dungeon and no one would ever deviate from it. It rewards cowardly and low-skillcap gameplay.

[T-34]

Fair enough, but I do get where they're coming from. If you enjoyed the harder heroics in TBC and the beginning of Cata, there really isn't any dungeon content for you unless you're into the frenetic, never-stop-gotta-go Mythic+ scene.

The "problem" with heroics that are harder than "normal, is that they become yolo AOE-fests the moment people outgear the content = those "hard" heroics have a very limited lifespan, whereas the lifespan for a M+ dungeon is the whole expansion as they scale into infinity.

If we accept that reward should follow difficulty then those "hard" heroics would give nice gear at the beginning of each expansion, but very quickly become obsolete both difficulty-wise and reward-wise.

Any content that isn't on a timer can be brute-forced with the right defensive setup and wating for CD's between each pull.

[Argorwal]

Fair enough, but I do get where they're coming from. If you enjoyed the harder heroics in TBC and the beginning of Cata, there really isn't any dungeon content for you unless you're into the frenetic, never-stop-gotta-go Mythic+ scene. Sure, you could run a group that doesn't bother with the timer, but it isn't really a sustainable method of playing the game, particularly if you want to try more difficult dungeons (Because you'll have to time a key eventually, which sort of defeats the purpose of imposing a slower run).

Considering “hard” heroics have only existed for the beginning part of 2 expansions there is probably an argument that could be made that they aren’t very popular.

Only existed twice out of 8 expansions, and both times were nerfed shortly after.

[Advent]

The "problem" with heroics that are harder than "normal, is that they become yolo AOE-fests the moment people outgear the content = those "hard" heroics have a very limited lifespan, whereas the lifespan for a M+ dungeon is the whole expansion as they scale into infinity.

If we accept that reward should follow difficulty then those "hard" heroics would give nice gear at the beginning of each expansion, but very quickly become obsolete both difficulty-wise and reward-wise.

Any content that isn't on a timer can be brute-forced with the right defensive setup and wating for CD's between each pull.

Well sure they can, but I don't think that matters to them. It's clear that they like difficult dungeons, but dislike being basically compelled to move as quickly as possible. Not because it's explicitly required by the content itself, but by the community of people that do Mythic+ often. I get it. For example, I like raids, but I dislike the community that does them because they're often anal, anti-social narcissists. I think what they're asking for isn't really possible, but I understand where they're coming from.

Considering “hard” heroics have only existed for the beginning part of 2 expansions there is probably an argument that could be made that they aren’t very popular.

Only existed twice out of 8 expansions, and both times were nerfed shortly after.

I'm not exactly advocating for their inclusion, just trying to get people on the same page because there seems to be a lot of strawman arguments being thrown around, alongside quite a few misunderstandings.

[T-34]

Well sure they can, but I don't think that matters to them. It's clear that they like difficult dungeons, but dislike being basically compelled to move as quickly as possible. Not because it's explicitly required by the content itself, but by the community of people that do Mythic+ often.

The problem is that those people that can't handle the pressure want the same rewards for doing easier stuff. Brute-forcing stuff is easier. If those people would have gone out honestly and said that they wanted easier content - as in non-timed - and that they would accept lesser rewards for the lesser effort/skill required then I would support them 100%.

And your "community"-argument is old as WoW it self. And it can be solved with the same solution that is as old as WoW itself: Find like-minded people to play with.

[OokOok]

Personally, I think so. Removing the timer would do a lot of things. It would turn M+ into an actual ladder system instead of a race of "Who has the best meta". Even D3's rift system that has a timer is superior to Mythic +. Not only would it slow things down and turn it into more strategy then an aoe race fest, but it would also open the doors to more classes. Right now the meta is always who has the best utility and mobility. Warlock has amazing dmg especially at higher keys where the dots can tick, but garbage in M+ cause they don't bring enough to benefit the timer for example.

Without the timer Blizzard would be able to hard tune the dngs that makes it easier to bring all specs/classes. Think of Torghast, no timer. You take your time, plan a strategy and go for it. You can bring any spec and class. M+ should be what Torghast is, it's supposed to be fun. if you really think about removing the timer could actually make it harder, right now they have to tune the dngs so people can clear them within time. Remove the timer and they could make harder pulls that prevent mass aoe and slows things down. Which opens up the dng to more specs/classes. It also brings more challenge so the "try hards" get what they want, and the those who don't play a desired class get what they want.

[Lazerbrain]

i would like if the key didnt go down a level if you complete it when time is up. it should only go down if you give up. and 1 up when in time ofc.

i agree with this, + add some minutes to the timer on lower keys.

[Matthias]

Sad thing about M+ is that it discourages communication. Yes dungeons should be a puzzle that one collaborately needs to unravel. It's quite crazy how I can do an 18 key in a pug and say damn near nothing. You don't have time to stop and tell your team what to do or what you plan to do, people are just kind of expected to know and/or improvise on the fly.

It ruins the emersion when your just trying to power through everything. With said great thing about the timer is people respect your time. No random afks or bio breaks. That timer starts its all business. Once again though those afk breaks people take do give you time to kind of take in the sights and ambience of the place. That's why I can't wait for the next mega dungeon.

[T-34]

Sad thing about M+ is that it discourages communication. Yes dungeons should be a puzzle that one collaborately needs to unravel. It's quite crazy how I can do an 18 key in a pug and say damn near nothing. You don't have time to stop and tell your team what to do or what you plan to do, people are just kind of expected to know and/or improvise on the fly.

It ruins the emersion when your just trying to power through everything. With said great thing about the timer is people respect your time. No random afks or bio breaks. That timer starts its all business. Once again though those afk breaks people take do give you time to kind of take in the sights and ambience of the place. That's why I can't wait for the next mega dungeon.

Nothing stops you from using voice chat during a M+ run.
M+ is competitive content and "immersion" and "taking your time" is the 100% opposite of competitive.

[cface]

The timer isn't that big of a deal in the bracket 12/14 and 15 where most people care. Just don't die and use your CDs and you can just forget about the timer, its plenty. If you do tank damage dps, then that's a problem as well.

Dying is in my experience, what causes the key to deplete. So just see it as a death counter. I do wish there was 1 pause or something though, just to get back from a DC or whatever.

[FarmerEd]

Honestly, me and my guildies don't care too much about the timer. If we time it, awesome! We can push a bit farther and get better rewards in the distant future, but even if we fail the timer we'll still get a nifty ilvl increase on the great vault.

I can see it being much more upsetting in a pugging setting where your .io score matters and depends on timing the keys.

[exochaft]

The timer isn't that big of a deal in the bracket 12/14 and 15 where most people care. Just don't die and use your CDs and you can just forget about the timer, its plenty. If you do tank damage dps, then that's a problem as well.

Dying is in my experience, what causes the key to deplete. So just see it as a death counter. I do wish there was 1 pause or something though, just to get back from a DC or whatever.

I'd surmise timers are not even that big of a deal at the +16/17 key level.

Just did a pug +17 key yesterday where one of the DPS DC'd twice for a few minutes each time during the run, did some super small pulls of trivial mobs that normally get chained into 1-2 other groups, and we had a little over 10 deaths... and we still timed the key despite the DPS generally being low. The trick, if it can be called a trick, is to (as you said) not die and not wipe if you can avoid it. Sometimes this means hybrid DPS should use their healing capacity to make sure they themselves or their mates don't die, interrupt/CC/dispel to minimize stress on the group, and so forth. I mean, it sounds obvious, but more often than not players tend to tunnel or don't take actions that could potentially save the group in pugs. I've had many hearty laughs as mages who kill themselves with curses in HoA because they don't dispel themselves, let alone anyone else in the group... or healing hybrids who let Grievous kill them out-of-combat because they don't bother helping heal.

Since most people will likely only concern themselves with +15 keys due to KSM and Valor changes coming up, the time requirements to complete these keys is low enough that the timers truly don't matter if you are methodical and don't rush like it's an MDI competition. If you aren't comfortable, practice makes perfect (or good enough in this case), as I can guarantee people doing +18's and higher keys have more key completed in one season than most players complete in an entire expansion. From my experience when I've failed keys, it's generally due to people who are hyper-focused on the timer instead of focusing on what actually matters... then blame the timer instead of themselves for rushing headlong into scenarios that either take loads of practice to execute properly or are just innately a dumb idea.

So would the timer being removed make M+ more enjoyable? Maybe in the super short term it would make people feel good about themselves, but in the long term it would cause more harm than good for a multitude of reasons (such as increased leaving of groups mid-keys, longer key runs, etc.). If you are failing key timers, that means you as the player or thegroup are doing something wrong or are undergeared for the content. With the incoming Valor system, this should help boost ilvls of players who may be struggling with M+ a bit, but the better solution is to figure out what the individual player or group are doing wrong as it'll make things like the timer a non-issue in the long run.

[Adam Jensen]

I would prefer to see a more performance based M+ system rather than a time based one. The timer adds undo stress and reinforces this "GOGOGOGO" attitude that then seeps into all other aspects of this game, like in normal/heroic dungeons or leveling dungeons. You get an alt in freaking Maraudon with a bunch of new players who'd never been here before trying to pull like it's a +15, but with characters that have a fourth of their abilities available.

On one hand, I hated Heroic Shattered Halls because I hated stopping to plan out CC for every stupid pull in that place. But I don't think swinging entirely to the other end of the spectrum of AOE+GOGOGO was the right answer either.