Do not judge spec, judge gameplay...

[iinverse]

I kept experiencing your problem every tier. I loved to play frost, I've been forced to play fire or arcane for certain events. It's been hard. Been learning new specs I really didn't feel like playing and farming gear by wasting time to be more effective or to please others so I know how you feel. In the long run it's jus not worth it so play whatever you like. Also, it's better to start your own group or get in friend's group instead of dealing with pugs.

I'm in the same situation, but I continue to play frost mage

[Kaver]

Do you though? What if they were carried by their guild... bought it...

It's still probability regardless of how you spruce it up or paint the picture.

Yes, you statistically have a good picture.

Find someone with a rio score of 1400+ with 30+ completed +15 keys and they will most likely perform sufficiently in a +15 key. Nothing guaranteed but it’s extremely likely.

[Qnubi]

I prefer to judge numbers, they don't lie, they can't cheat, they are the eternal truth to everything. Everything else is subjective.
Skipped through some logs, the numbers tell me it's a player issue.

[Le Conceptuel]

I prefer to judge numbers, they don't lie, they can't cheat, they are the eternal truth to everything. Everything else is subjective.
Skipped through some logs, the numbers tell me it's a player issue.

Since there's no like button on this website, I would like to directly provide my appreciation.

[Dorothyjean]

Despite all your efforts articulating your point, you yourself still haven't acknowledged that anonymous applications can always only be judged by the data they come with.

I'm acknowledging that the score means relatively nothing except for a belief system that people buy into in thinking that Person A is better than Person B when in reality it's still probability. That is the flawed part about these scores in any form.

[LazuOG]

I'm acknowledging that the score means relatively nothing except for a belief system that people buy into in thinking that Person A is better than Person B when in reality it's still probability. That is the flawed part about these scores in any form.

So... having an abundance of data to judge players by vs having no data at all and rolling the dice yields the same average result, you say? If so you should probably open up some old schoolbooks and reeducate yourself, because statistics would like to have a word with you.

3 players sign up to your 15 DoS, same spec, same gear. One is 729IO and the other two are 1300 IO. One of the 1300 people has timed a total of 11 keys above 10, the other has timed every 15 multiple times. Who of these absolute strangers do you pick in order to make sure the run goes as smooth as possible? With IO making that decision is easy. Without it there's a 66.6% chance of your key getting tanked and your time being wasted.

[Adam Jensen]

Personally I enjoy seeing people play non-fotm specs. Usually they are more enjoyable players than others.

Though there are exceptions, obviously.

I have a Demonology Lock. I love playing the spec. My DPS isn't great because I'm barely 170 on her. But I tried Afflic . . . ooof. I can't handle all the dots. Did a heroic Sanguine Depths, first half did like 1500 dps. Got fed up and went back to Demo and my DPS nearly doubled, both on bosses and on trash.

I find people always do better on specs they're comfortable with, than with chasing FotM.

[Dequanacus]

These people just scream unintelligent to me because anyone who spends the time to think that people should be judging them on how well they actually play should have just as quickly realized that, much like any other application in the world, nobody has the time to actually test out every person that comes along and relying on credentials like raid logs, raid history, and other metrics like IO isn't elitist, it's just common sense.

OP is one of thousands of applicants so obviously most groups aren't going to bring him along on the off chance that, despite having nothing tangible supporting his claims of skill, he might still be good. That OP couldn't put 2+2 together and realize something so straightforward and obvious also likely means that OP isn't very smart and probably isn't a very good player, it's a personal problem, not a problem with the system.

[Dorothyjean]

So... having an abundance of data to judge players by vs having no data at all and rolling the dice yields the same average result, you say? If so you should probably open up some old schoolbooks and reeducate yourself, because statistics would like to have a word with you.

3 players sign up to your 15 DoS, same spec, same gear. One is 729IO and the other two are 1300 IO. One of the 1300 people has timed a total of 11 keys above 10, the other has timed every 15 multiple times. Who of these absolute strangers do you pick in order to make sure the run goes as smooth as possible? With IO making that decision is easy. Without it there's a 66.6% chance of your key getting tanked and your time being wasted.

Where do you get the 66.6% chance part... and you are running data in a system that has human error and involvement which skews the data immensely. It still ends up being "Well, this could be better" and it probably will but every time you do a run the probability is up in the air. Like I said I've run with people with 1000+ who would even leave the group because of my low rating and when we do the dungeon I would outperform them all, they would die and the key would get tanked... but I have the low score.

It's just a number with probability and people wanting to gamble based on the number.

[Beowolf]

Made an account on here, just to reply to this..
Stop crying and get better at your class, i main a BM hunter..If youre gonna insist on playing a gimped spec you need to be performing in the top 5-10%, no one is gonna have pity on you when the point of the game is to kill bosses and get loot. You dont want to be judged on your class but your performance is bad, and your io doesnt exist. So how is someone supposed to judge your performance fairly?

[LazuOG]

Where do you get the 66.6% chance part... and you are running data in a system that has human error and involvement which skews the data immensely. It still ends up being "Well, this could be better" and it probably will but every time you do a run the probability is up in the air. Like I said I've run with people with 1000+ who would even leave the group because of my low rating and when we do the dungeon I would outperform them all, they would die and the key would get tanked... but I have the low score.

It's just a number with probability and people wanting to gamble based on the number.

The problem with this argument is that you value your own anecdotal and highly subjective evidence more than the objective discipline of analysing data with statistical tools.

The 66.6% failure rate in my example is due to 2/3 apllicants for your 15 key being severely underqualified, and even boosted in one case. The 3rd person with a multitude of timed 15s is the safest bet in that scenario, which you wouldn't know if you don't check RIO. Therefore you have a 66.6% chance of inviting an objectively underqualified person to an arguably difficult 15 key, which is all it takes to kill a dungeon like 15+ DoS that already has a tough timer.

Of course you can't ONLY look at score, as my example shows. But RIO and logs give you so much data that you 100% can make impactful decisions based on them. Your argument that it's all the same chance and all the other anecdotal blabla are uninformed and criminally unintelligent.

If you can't see the benefit of having data vs not having data you can't be helped , sadly. I'll rest my case here.

[Pandragon]

Because if you're 10/10hc there is literally no reason why a pug would kick you other than looking for a ranged DD

There really is. With cutting edge achieve, I could barely get my rogue alt with a proper ilvl into heroic Nya, and thats signing up with only a couple DPS already in the raid. I once sat in a raid for an hour for it to fill, to then be kicked before pull.

[The One Percent]

bitch plz... ive been complaining about "gear score" add-ons since they existed in wrath... not because i cant get into groups, but because people don't understand how the hell they work. its 1k+ io req's for +10s or requiring 210 ilvl average to get an invite to normal nathria. i mean.. common sense people.

Keep complaining, no one in my group cares.

- - - Updated - - -

*waits for your commentary on how I'm wrong because the math is in your favor because the higher their score the better chance you have of a positive outcome* :P

You assume I care about convincing you. :P