SL Ret Stat weights revisited. Were we wrong?

[capri sunset]

My conclusion is that I believe I found a soft cap in one of our stats and that's Versatility. Up until about 800 verse does it help with our baseline dps until you start to hinder other stats and pretty much block your dps potential. I'm pretty much dpsing at the same pace as other rets at 12 ilvl's more than me. The difference is that My mastery, crit and haste is more by a decent margin.

Verse has its great points. Taking damage feels better when you're at a higher versatility number which would make you more valuable to your raid and or mythic plus team. But too much verse would take away from overall dps which can contribute to one of the many reasons why your raid or group isn't progressing in content no matter raid or mythic plus. Not all stats are equal.

So, ignoring everything else that has been said because a lot of people are missing the point, I do want to purely focus on your conclusion. This is how every stat works for almost every spec, stats multiply each other so the vast majority of the time you're going to be looking for relatively balanced stats. You'll index into one or two a bit more than the others but you're not often going to benefit from dumping everything into a single stat nor neglecting a stat entirely.

Following from that, I think you're focusing on versatility here too much, this will happen with any stat. You also can't really call it a cap because it's not a set in stone number, it's totally dependent on your distribution of stats.

[Skulldancer]

So, ignoring everything else that has been said because a lot of people are missing the point, I do want to purely focus on your conclusion. This is how every stat works for almost every spec, stats multiply each other so the vast majority of the time you're going to be looking for relatively balanced stats. You'll index into one or two a bit more than the others but you're not often going to benefit from dumping everything into a single stat nor neglecting a stat entirely.

Following from that, I think you're focusing on versatility here too much, this will happen with any stat. You also can't really call it a cap because it's not a set in stone number, it's totally dependent on your distribution of stats.

Finally someone with reading comprehension! When you say "this will happen with any stat" do you feel this way about Mastery being mastery is the force second to str that increases or Holy dmg? I was theorizing being crit is just increasing the CHANCE of increased damage that it's not guaranteed, that we should be focusing on Mastery/Haste>>>> Haste/Verse>>>>Mastery/Verse>>>Crit/haste>>>crit/mastery>>>crit/verse.

The reason why I say its a cap on certain things is for instance Versatility. This ret that I mentioned originally https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...B7%D0%BE%D1%80 is now currently geared in almost full raid gear with a few pieces of verse centric gear and is at 642 verse (16%) and 612 mastery (41%) at ilvl 229 and parsed 3,9k dps raw no buff, food, potions, flask. The other rets at roughly the same ilvl but have about half the mastery but DOUBLE the verse at over 1,3k verse at 33-34% are only doing 150-200 dps more than me and they are a whole 12 ilvl's higher. That shouldn't be being they have that much more STR than me. The other ret who has about 20% verse or about 790 to 800 verse points also parsed around 3.9k and has 497 mastery points to be at 36%

The reason why I state that verse has a cap at about 700-750 is that the rets who are over 1,300 verse points at ilvl 228 actually DECREASED in dps. This also states that ilvl ISNT king. Also the ret https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ch...rage/Enlighten use two "PVP" trinkets and still parsed 3.9k so the trinket discussion is out the door.

[capri sunset]

Finally someone with reading comprehension! When you say "this will happen with any stat" do you feel this way about Mastery being mastery is the force second to str that increases or Holy dmg? I was theorizing being crit is just increasing the CHANCE of increased damage that it's not guaranteed, that we should be focusing on Mastery/Haste>>>> Haste/Verse>>>>Mastery/Verse>>>Crit/haste>>>crit/mastery>>>crit/verse.

Yeah, mastery is the same because it can be boiled down to increasing your damage by x%, which multiplies with your other stats. Similarly, the randomness of crit isn't relevant because on average having 5% crit is a 5% damage increase, which is another multiplier. The exceptions come with either blizzard messing up the amount of % you get for a stat, or more usually a gameplay mechanic. For ret haste is the wonky one here because it's the one interacting with our rotation by reducing some of our cooldowns, so it retains some of its value when you stack it like when you get an extra hammer of wrath during wings, and other stats don't have any of that going on. Even still, you can see in the bloodmallet plot linked earlier that stacking haste doesn't suffer as much as stacking the other three stats, but it's still worse than leaning slightly into haste with a moderate balance of your other stats.

The reason why I say its a cap on certain things is for instance Versatility. This ret that I mentioned originally https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...B7%D0%BE%D1%80 is now currently geared in almost full raid gear with a few pieces of verse centric gear and is at 642 verse (16%) and 612 mastery (41%) at ilvl 229 and parsed 3,9k dps raw no buff, food, potions, flask. The other rets at roughly the same ilvl but have about half the mastery but DOUBLE the verse at over 1,3k verse at 33-34% are only doing 150-200 dps more than me and they are a whole 12 ilvl's higher. That shouldn't be being they have that much more STR than me. The other ret who has about 20% verse or about 790 to 800 verse points also parsed around 3.9k and has 497 mastery points to be at 36%

The reason why I state that verse has a cap at about 700-750 is that the rets who are over 1,300 verse points at ilvl 228 actually DECREASED in dps. This also states that ilvl ISNT king. Also the ret https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ch...rage/Enlighten use two "PVP" trinkets and still parsed 3.9k so the trinket discussion is out the door.

Well, yeah, ilvl isn't king. All pvp gear having vers on it is blizzard's way of keeping pve gear useful in a world of buyable pvp gear, because anyone with a full set of it will know their dps isn't very high. You still can't pin down a number to never go beyond for any stat because it's everchanging.

[Tyris Flare]

Why are you worried about stat weights in a world where top gear sims exist? It's not like you can just pick the loot you want anyway, you have to go with what drops

(or pvp)

[Gromthak]

So, ignoring everything else that has been said because a lot of people are missing the point, I do want to purely focus on your conclusion.

Noone is missing the point he's trying to make, his conclusion is just so flawed it's not worth arguing over until he makes adjustments and provides sound data. You can't sim pve oriented chars vs pvp oriented chars and call that proof of a theory. It completely invalidates his data.

Also the ret https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ch...rage/Enlighten use two "PVP" trinkets and still parsed 3.9k so the trinket discussion is out the door.

Just fucking wow dude, talk about lack of reading comprehension. You're completely missing the point about the trinket discussion and gearing for pvp in general.

These are the trinkets Enlighten is wearing, they are throughput trinkets that are also good in pve.

A pvp medallion trinket like Tdchopa is wearing in his bottom slot IS NOT a throughput trinket and is straight up garbage for pve since it lacks a stat proc.

And as I've previously shown in simming your own character, swapping out one of your trinkets for a medallion, the dps loss for using one is HUGE.

Noone is disputing going all in on versa is bad for your pve dps. We're just arguing your logic is flawed in your comparisons. I feel like you're just trolling at this point. How is anyone to take anything you say serious if you completely ignore everything that doesn't agree with your reasoning.

[Kehego]

confirmation bias: the thread

mans went out and decided to manipulate sims (10 min heavy movement lmao) to get results

[Indil]

What the fuck did I just read, that's not how you compare sims, lol

[Faesroll]

i just want to be part of this thread

[Skulldancer]

Yeah, mastery is the same because it can be boiled down to increasing your damage by x%, which multiplies with your other stats. Similarly, the randomness of crit isn't relevant because on average having 5% crit is a 5% damage increase, which is another multiplier. The exceptions come with either blizzard messing up the amount of % you get for a stat, or more usually a gameplay mechanic. For ret haste is the wonky one here because it's the one interacting with our rotation by reducing some of our cooldowns, so it retains some of its value when you stack it like when you get an extra hammer of wrath during wings, and other stats don't have any of that going on. Even still, you can see in the bloodmallet plot linked earlier that stacking haste doesn't suffer as much as stacking the other three stats, but it's still worse than leaning slightly into haste with a moderate balance of your other stats.

Well, yeah, ilvl isn't king. All pvp gear having vers on it is blizzard's way of keeping pve gear useful in a world of buyable pvp gear, because anyone with a full set of it will know their dps isn't very high. You still can't pin down a number to never go beyond for any stat because it's everchanging.

Yes I do try to have a balance of stats because I believed that will effectively make you hit like a 2 ton truck more so. The only reason why I undervalued crit for the most part is in fact its a chance out of 100 that it will crit like if ur 20% thats 2 out of 10 attacks or "strikes" it'll crit, our baseline dps sucks compared to other classes so we need as much "for sure" damage producing stats that we can provide. BUT I completely understand that everything makes everything work....

Every stat has its benefits. I'm trying to investigate if one of the 4 stats have diminished use after a certain threshold. When I hear other players with other specs whine about not getting a certain piece of loot because "(insert stat here) isn't good for my class/spec" I'm wondering WHY isn't it like that for ret? We have never been the leader of ANY dps class/spec in ANY expansion (came close at the end of Wrath) while other specs and classes have had their shine. I'm trying to find some kind of way to get us passed that hump.....

[Stickiler]

Every stat has its benefits. I'm trying to investigate if one of the 4 stats have diminished use after a certain threshold.

Literally all stats work this way, because their value depends on how much of other stats you have.

When I hear other players with other specs whine about not getting a certain piece of loot because "(insert stat here) isn't good for my class/spec"

They don't understand how stats, stat weights and gear work, and are just parroting garbage they've heard other people say.

We have never been the leader of ANY dps class/spec in ANY expansion (came close at the end of Wrath) while other specs and classes have had their shine.

That's just how balancing in a constantly-changing game works.

I'm trying to find some kind of way to get us passed that hump.....

You're just flat-out not going to find it. The only thing humans can do better than a top gear sim is the spec rotation, but the rotations in simcraft are built by people much smarter and better at the spec than you or me.

[Skulldancer]

Literally all stats work this way because their value depends on how much of other stats you have.


They don't understand how stats, stat weights, and gear work, and are just parroting garbage they've heard other people say.
.

What I think I did find after analyzing 2 rets who are roughly the same ballpark Str with the same covenant and talents.

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ch...alganis/Danbtw

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...akthul/Kreedzy

and I ran DPS and they are virtually the same

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...pxdf6kbLS1FTqb

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...Fr5ASEFsVCUv2W



What I noticed is that Both run Fairly high Crit and Mastery but the difference is the verse. Danbtw runs 11% Verse with 12% haste. Kreedzy runs 24% haste (double) and only 5 verse (half). Both have virtually the exact same DPS.

My I conclusion is that I think that Versatility is worth double the amount per point than haste...... that the overall benefits of verse is grossly overlooked and that we should reconsider Versatility in priority.

Of course having a balance is always great, but upping your durability while having no loss in dps (with an almost guaranteed gain) will always weigh out in our favor.

[Phookah]

Imagine still simming stat weights in 2021.

Use top gear sims
Equip what it tells you to equip
???
Profit

[Stickiler]

My I conclusion is that I think that Versatility is worth double the amount per point than haste...... that the overall benefits of verse is grossly overlooked and that we should reconsider Versatility in priority.

The issue is that even with all the work you've done, your conclusion is wrong. Vers isn't worth double per point, because even
in a situation where Haste and Vers are grossly imbalanced(Like in Kreedzy's case in your post), Vers is only worth 1.24 dps per point vs Haste at 1.01 per point.

Which comes back to the point everyone has been telling you, Stat Weights are fucking worthless, you shouldn't be using them, and you should just use the Top Gear sim instead to compare any new item you get, because it sims the dps of every possible permutation of the gear you select, and tells you which gives the highest dps.

upping your durability while having no loss in dps (with an almost guaranteed gain)

Don't forget that Vers only gives half effect for damage reduction, so going from 5% vers to 11%, like in the two characters you posted, you only gain 3% damage reduction, which is basically nothing, and worthless to try and focus on.