SL Ret Stat weights revisited. Were we wrong?

[Skulldancer]

Good morning,

Upon getting back into the game it bothered me heavy that everyone has told me that there isn't a preferred stat for us anymore. Almost if the developers just didn't put much thought into the Retribution spec anymore.

I felt that there IS a stat priority that we should aim for and I've been observing certain top geared Rets for some time now. One is a server acquaintance that I speak to on a regular basis for opinions and view points of our dps and gearing.

So I took it upon myself to do some analyzing and my findings are what I felt has always been true.

Below I will link 4 top tier rets that have access to all current end content as of today. I will include myself as the 5th Ret for an "average" reference point.

[Skulldancer - US - Stormrage](https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ch...ge/skulldancer) ***All "PVE" centric gear***

[Мйдзор - EU - Howling Fjord](https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...B7%D0%BE%D1%80) ***Top tier PVE raid gear w/ 1 or 2 "PVP" pieces ***

[Enlighten - US - Stormrage](https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ch...rage/Enlighten) ***Perfect blend of "PVE" and "PVP" gear***

[Hojnojutsu - US - Sargeras](https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ch...ras/Hojnojutsu) ***Pure "PVP" gear***

[Tdchopa - EU - Ravencrest](https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...ncrest/Tdchopa) ***Pure "PVP" gear***

Below are the dps sims I ran for all. I used a long 10 minute time duration with no buffs, potions, and or affects other than what comes from trinket usage. The 10 minute sim is to give everything a fair to properly see variances. Also the Rets use different talents to show contrast to SEE if talents really come into factor.

*** Also Мйдзор has changed gear to PVP. Raidbots saves the gear that was worn at the time of simulation so you will get a perfect idea of gearing and stats ****

The other Rets are in the gear they have always been including myself

[Skulldancer's DPS Sim](https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...SuZUR5s6euDaVL)

[Мйдзор's DPS Sim](https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...xqQdgxQvXz9bbd)

[Tdchopa's DPS Sim](https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...nNDnASdnH4L3mY)

[HOJNOJUTSU's DPS Sim](https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...8LmEHhcAyQFbYQ)

[Enlighten's DPS Sim](https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...rhAo88h6JbSgGA)

Now the two Rets TdChopa and Hojnojutsu both have a crazy amount of verse 33% and 34% at around 1,300 verse.

Мйдзор who is almost entirely PVE raid geared is sitting at a huge amount of Mastery at 549 gear mastery plus the default baseline of 12.8% Mastery ungeared. for a Reference my Mastery is 31.6% at just 412 gear mastery. This will put Мйдзор at about 40%

Enlighten has a perfect blend of PVP/Verse heavy and PVE gear. They sit at 497 mastery (36%) and 845 verse (21%)

Why is all of this important? Look at the sim numbers....

There is NO WAY I should be only 200 dps behind Hojnojutsu and TdChopa with my gear ilvl being 215 and theres being 227+... The strength increase and better weapon alone should place them WAY higher than me.

Мйдзор and Enlighten both parse at around 3920 dps amost a full 700 dps ahead of the other rets sitting at 1,300 verse or 33%.

To get that high verse you will HAVE to take away from other stats that is viable for PVE dps.

PVP you just need to have "enough" baseline damage to burst big and dps down your opponent. While PVE you need as much DPS enhancers and multipliers to DPS a boss down with various mechanics and ofter an enrage timer.


My conclusion is that I believe I found a soft cap in one of our stats and that's Versatility. Up until about 800 verse does it help with our baseline dps until you start to hinder other stats and pretty much block your dps potential. I'm pretty much dpsing at the same pace as other rets at 12 ilvl's more than me. The difference is that My mastery, crit and haste is more by a decent margin.

Verse has its great points. Taking damage feels better when you're at a higher versatility number which would make you more valuable to your raid and or mythic plus team. But too much verse would take away from overall dps which can contribute to one of the many reasons why your raid or group isn't progressing in content no matter raid or mythic plus. Not all stats are equal.

[Gromthak]

They're using pvp trinkets, you're not. Mystery solved

[Gloriandus]

Many are doing PvP for more gear due to the reduced drop rate on other content.

[Skulldancer]

They're using pvp trinkets, you're not. Mystery solved

How is that "Mystery solved? Those trinkets give a wild amount of a certain stat like crit and or haste and the proc for over 100 Str. The burst from that alone is crazy.

Besides I included a Ret with the perfect blend of PVP and PVE gear with PVP trinkets and they are still out pacing the pure verse Rets at the same ilvl. I addressed all possibilities. No "mystery solved"

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Many are doing PvP for more gear due to the reduced drop rate on other content.

That is understandable but why cut your overall dps down? I posted sims to prove.

[Subrias]

Also, stat weights are pointless.

not entirely. they matter on accessories and items that are the same ilvl still. I just got a 207 ring that said it was an 11% upgrade compared t my 213 ring and it simmed about 15 dps higher because of breakpoints i assume. but for the most part yes, ilvl > all so stat weights are very low in priority most of the time.

[Skulldancer]

The two Rets you claim are barely ahead of you are using the PvP trinkets with only flat strength and no procs. That in and of itself destroys your entire point.

Also, stat weights are pointless.

STR is our MAIN source of DPS out side of weapon damage. Plus I included a ret that is using BOTH a "PVP" trink and a PVE trink and there dps is almost 700 points more.

Plus a decent number of rets clearing 10/10 mythic are running PVP trinks and sim WAY higher than me...... They also don't run over 1,300 verse....

Its clear you didnt make even a 25% effort to read. Have a nice day.

[Pawpurr]

STR is our MAIN source of DPS out side of weapon damage. Plus I included a ret that is using BOTH a "PVP" trink and a PVE trink and there dps is almost 700 points more.

Plus a decent number of rets clearing 10/10 mythic are running PVP trinks and sim WAY higher than me...... They also don't run over 1,300 verse....

Its clear you didnt make even a 25% effort to read. Have a nice day.

lmfao are you trying to say those 3000 dps sims of guys in pvp gear/specs/talents are clearing 10/10m?

People gave you the answer, these sims have them with PVP gear and talents and leggos. It's thousands of DPS difference.

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...ARcBYNu9Zw8Ccc

[Skulldancer]

lmfao are you trying to say those 3000 dps sims of guys in pvp gear/specs/talents are clearing 10/10m?

People gave you the answer, these sims have them with PVP gear and talents and leggos. It's thousands of DPS difference.

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...ARcBYNu9Zw8Ccc

Its clear that you didn't read my post. Very Clear. I will now only reply to people who know how to read things in completion.

3 of the 5 listed Rets are atleast 4/10 mythic with 1 being 7/10 and the other being 10/10. But THATS not whats important.

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Oh yeah. Legendaries are a big factor too. I'm a bit surprised you didn't factor those in....Just says a lot. The two Rets way ahead are both using Mad Paragon where Tdchopa and the other are using Final Verdict which isn't a dps gain and the second has Sephuz which isn't either.

I purposly included those to show that legendaries may ONLY have a small additional dps increase WHICH AGAIN will state that why am I almost even dps with Rets that are a full 12 ilvls ahead of me?

Also if the gear and trinkets didn't have "Sinful" or any "PVP" indication they will be just gear with verse on it. Plain and simple. Versatility isn't a "PVP" only stat, BUT too much of it in PVE scenarios can be a waste. Case in point my wrist right now have verse but they aren't "PVP" JUST because it doesn't say "PVP"

If a legendary brought over 700 dps point increase then they will ALSO use it in PVP BECAUSE of the insane dps increase WHICH is obviously not the case!

[Kuntantee]

Also, stat weights are pointless.

Why is that?

[Skulldancer]

Why is that?

I really want to see their response

[LedZeppelin]

the full pvp gear rets do much less dps because when they pvp they have the 40% bonus from the pvp trinket set which makes vers so much more valuable. 40% bonus is huge. If PVP sims where a think they would do so much more damage. ignoring the dr at 30%, the more you have of 1 stat, the better the others become.

[Aurosh]

Why is that?

Stat weights have to be taken careful because some stats sim weird results because of break points. They aren't pointless though.

Plots are way more reliable. And doing some plots with "normalized stats", i ended up seeing 3 stats at nearly exakt same level and haste slightly ahead. This just shows that all stats are close and you should target more haste than any other stat for pure st. Versatilty is better for survival and pvp, mastery is better for aoe. So i'd say everything is fine.

Theorycrafters saying you gotta pick "whatever is the highest item level" are absolutely right. There's no reason to stack one stack to very high levels.

Stat weights are useful to see if you lack one stat. So if you have e.g. 800 haste and 200 vers, you actually want to lose some haste and gain some vers. If you have 400 haste and 400 vers, you'd try to get more haste and lose some vers.

If you have e.g. 650 haste and 550 of each other stat, it's literally pointless what you pick and just do whatever you like to.



On a side note: it is very obvious, that pvp oriented players will gem versatility. Getting 800 vers in pve isn't very useful for your raids, but it works just fine and you can be better in pvp. On another note, players who pvp for pve gear, will try to maximize haste in gems. Both don't matter that much in PvE, but vers really matters in PVP.

[Kuntantee]

Because item level is king. Duh?

Yes, but what if two items have the same item level, then what? Also, the way you understand item level (primary stats) being "the king" is through stat weights.

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Stat weights have to be taken careful because some stats sim weird results because of break points. They aren't pointless though.

Plots are way more reliable. And doing some plots with "normalized stats", i ended up seeing 3 stats at nearly exakt same level and haste slightly ahead. This just shows that all stats are close and you should target more haste than any other stat for pure st. Versatilty is better for survival and pvp, mastery is better for aoe. So i'd say everything is fine.

Theorycrafters saying you gotta pick "whatever is the highest item level" are absolutely right. There's no reason to stack one stack to very high levels.

Stat weights are useful to see if you lack one stat. So if you have e.g. 800 haste and 200 vers, you actually want to lose some haste and gain some vers. If you have 400 haste and 400 vers, you'd try to get more haste and lose some vers.

If you have e.g. 650 haste and 550 of each other stat, it's literally pointless what you pick and just do whatever you like to.



On a side note: it is very obvious, that pvp oriented players will gem versatility. Getting 800 vers in pve isn't very useful for your raids, but it works just fine and you can be better in pvp. On another note, players who pvp for pve gear, will try to maximize haste in gems. Both don't matter that much in PvE, but vers really matters in PVP.

Agility/Int/Strength are a stats.

[Skulldancer]

the full pvp gear rets do much less dps because when they pvp they have the 40% bonus from the pvp trinket set which makes vers so much more valuable. 40% bonus is huge. If PVP sims where a think they would do so much more damage. ignoring the dr at 30%, the more you have of 1 stat, the better the others become.

This is why I provided a Ret (Enlighten) who I also linked DPS sims who also have the same trinkets that had a 700 point dps increase at roughly the same ilvl. This proves that trinkets are at the most a SMALL factor. If you took time to read you will see I addressed everything that a person can possible argue.

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You are a truly unremarkable individual. This thread is a testament to that. You compare people in certain pieces to others with different talents, legendaries and even soulbinds and try to present them as some kind of research. It's lazy and boring. The only real negative of using full PvP vs PvE gear would be your lack of Haste since it's all primarily Vers.

I'll just use Droptimizer with your own character to prove a point.

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...xhzMSh51aBMM5C

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...LU8rmgZeE2mVCP

Strange. They're not too far off based on the ilvl and % upgrades and that can be attributed to lack of Haste and the way HP generation functions.

What in the entire F$^& are you talking about? What I am saying is that VERSATILITY, while good, HAS A CAP, that after that CAP is reached, ITS NOT VALUED and takes AWAY from other stats which will LOWER your DPS potential.

You linked DROPTIMIZER stuff trying to prove that I'm wrong when in FACT you PROVED my point.... The gear may sim LOWER for what verse gear because verse up to a CERTAIN POINT is good. ONCE THAT POINT IS REACHED its not VIABLE in PVE. So THANK YOU for trying to prove me wrong!

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His sim format is very dumb. 10 mins, heavy movement. Very weird shit.

The sim is to illustrate a raiding environment with mechanics. The 10 minute sim time illustrates pure dps going through enough cycles to show pure baseline dps factoring in trinket procs and cool downs.

If you call this weird then it CLEARLY shows that you're a selfish playing trying to stat pad and potentially wiping the raid by just staying on boss, not moving out of danger, etc.

Because item level is king. Duh?

If "item level is king" Why am I almost neck and neck with people a full 12 item levels ahead? Its because they stashed almost their entire stat allocation to versatility which has a cap at around 810 versatility.

I will assume that haste has a cap at around 4.1 seconds for crusader strike but I'm researching that one further.

[quez]

I'm sorry but there's way to many variables and assumptions to make any meaningful analysis based on that data set.

What you're getting is the difference between stat distributions. Instead of looking up a handful of players you could instead look at stat plots that compare these differences with everything else equal, such as this one: https://bloodmallet.com/chart/paladi...stingpatchwerk

According to this plot there's a ~400(~7%) dps difference between the worst possible stat distribution and the best one, hence "item level is king" is a reasonable rule.

The reason why stat weights are useless is because they change every time you equip a new item. In certain scenarios due to various break points your stat weights could tell you that item B is an upgrade over item A, but after equipping item B and running another sim it might tell you to equip item A again. That's why most theorycrafters recommend using raidbots Top Gear which makes stat weights obsolete.

[Soisoisoi]

Why don't you just do the simple thing of a DPS plot point?

https://bloodmallet.com/chart/paladi...stingpatchwerk

Sorted.

[Gromthak]

Its clear that you didn't read my post. Very Clear. I will now only reply to people who know how to read things in completion.

3 of the 5 listed Rets are atleast 4/10 mythic with 1 being 7/10 and the other being 10/10. But THATS not whats important.

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I purposly included those to show that legendaries may ONLY have a small additional dps increase WHICH AGAIN will state that why am I almost even dps with Rets that are a full 12 ilvls ahead of me?

Also if the gear and trinkets didn't have "Sinful" or any "PVP" indication they will be just gear with verse on it. Plain and simple. Versatility isn't a "PVP" only stat, BUT too much of it in PVE scenarios can be a waste. Case in point my wrist right now have verse but they aren't "PVP" JUST because it doesn't say "PVP"

If a legendary brought over 700 dps point increase then they will ALSO use it in PVP BECAUSE of the insane dps increase WHICH is obviously not the case!

Dude you can't compare people in their pve set to people in their pvp set. You don't even seem to understand the difference between legendaries pve and pvp legendaries. These people are logging out in their best pvp gear set with pvp trinkets/talents/conduits/legendaries and vice versa with people in their best pve gear. They're just wearing what is best for their situation. That one guy isnt wearing a perfect blend of anything, he's just wearing what performs/sims best for him.

Using the best legendaries for pve and trinkets with actual dmg/stat procs make a HUGE difference. Did you even look at what they do? Sephuz legendary doesnt give you any dps increase in a sim and the final verdict one isn't good for pve either. Your own trinket proc does like 200 dps vs the people using a pvp medallion/healthboost with no dmg/stat proc.

You just keep digging away at something that doesn't exist. All your evidence is flawed, stop deluding yourself. Comparing people geared for pve vs geared for pvp in your theory just shows you have no clue what you're talking about.

[Skulldancer]

Dude you can't compare people in their pve set to people in their pvp set. You don't even seem to understand the difference between legendaries pve and pvp legendaries. These people are logging out in their best pvp gear set with pvp trinkets/talents/conduits/legendaries and vice versa with people in their best pve gear. They're just wearing what is best for their situation. That one guy isnt wearing a perfect blend of anything, he's just wearing what performs/sims best for him.

Using the best legendaries for pve and trinkets with actual dmg/stat procs make a HUGE difference. Did you even look at what they do? Sephuz legendary doesnt give you any dps increase in a sim and the final verdict one isn't good for pve either. Your own trinket proc does like 200 dps vs the people using a pvp medallion/healthboost with no dmg/stat proc.

You just keep digging away at something that doesn't exist. All your evidence is flawed, stop deluding yourself. Comparing people geared for pve vs geared for pvp in your theory just shows you have no clue what you're talking about.

This is why I gave a variety of different scenarios with all having one thing in common which is ilvl.

If you look at the top 20 parsed Rets you will see A LOT of PVP trinkets. Warcraft logs does a good job at snapshotting what trinkets they used AT the time of kill. not what they are currently wearing.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/ra...tion&boss=2398 <<< heres data plain as day.

Trinkets really don't influence the big picture. You may "feel" it does but clearly data shows that it doesn't.

The sephuz equipt ret with 33% Verse and the other ret with final verdict WHICH from your point of view should be much more dps because in fact it is a dps legendary, both Rets are 3.5k dps. BOTH. They are BOTH 12 whole item levels than me which would me a great amount more str which should translate to way more dps but it realy doesn't. The amount of Verse that takes away from other stats is the factor!

Because item level is king. Duh?

Apparently not

[Gromthak]

This is why I gave a variety of different scenarios with all having one thing in common which is ilvl.

If you look at the top 20 parsed Rets you will see A LOT of PVP trinkets. Warcraft logs does a good job at snapshotting what trinkets they used AT the time of kill. not what they are currently wearing.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/ra...tion&boss=2398 <<< heres data plain as day.

Trinkets really don't influence the big picture. You may "feel" it does but clearly data shows that it doesn't.

The sephuz equipt ret with 33% Verse and the other ret with final verdict WHICH from your point of view should be much more dps because in fact it is a dps legendary, both Rets are 3.5k dps. BOTH. They are BOTH 12 whole item levels than me which would me a great amount more str which should translate to way more dps but it realy doesn't. The amount of Verse that takes away from other stats is the factor!


Apparently not

Multiple people have pointed out that the comments regarding the pvp trinkets are about the medallion and battlemaster trinkets. Both of which only give a static amount of strength and no throughput at all via proc or on use. Noone uses those on warcraftlogs. We're not talking about the badges or insignias, pvp trinkets with str on use/proc. Losing out on the dmg from a second trinket effect is a huge deal. Sim your char wearing a pvp medallion vs one of your trinkets, oh you know what here I did it for you:

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...ZT9ZGkndfdinYr

Yes you lose 113 dps if you used a pvp medallion trinket. Fact not feeling.

And regarding sephuz and final verdict. Maybe if you bothered to properly read what I wrote before, you would know I meant they were both trash for pve. They are only good in pvp. You're comparing the mad paragon legendary, which is the best pve one by far, to two trash tier legendaries for pve. So lets sim your char with one of those leggos and a medallion:

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...mbUifN3YD7StB7

Oh look at that, you lost 280 dps in both cases.

That is really all there is to it, apples and oranges. You're comparing chars geared/specced intended for pvp content with chars geared/specced intended for pve content. You're reading too much into the versa stacking and completely ignoring the main factors of the dps differences.

Please for all that is holy try to comprehend what multiple people have tried to explain to you before you reply.

[SnorePod]

My conclusion is that I believe I found a soft cap in one of our stats and that's Versatility. Up until about 800 verse does it help with our baseline dps until you start to hinder other stats and pretty much block your dps potential. I'm pretty much dpsing at the same pace as other rets at 12 ilvl's more than me. The difference is that My mastery, crit and haste is more by a decent margin.

You have discovered nothing and besides what everyone else has said the biggest reason this whole post is useless is your sims are just trash; first off 10 minute heavy movement fight?? Nothing like that even exists in the game, second simming with 0 buffs basically makes any "discover" useless, because no one is raiding with 0 buffs.
Using my own pally as a reference both 10 minute heavy movement and 0 raid buffs decreased the value of versatility by a decent chunk. So all you did was run sims that decreased the value of versatility then claimed that versatility isnt that good.