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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    Since we are sharing personal experiences, I thought I'd share one from this morning which I think is a true example of real toxicity.


    Did a +5 Halls of Atonement helping carrying my friend's alternate character. All other players were pugged players including tank, healer, and 3rd damage dealer.


    The healer had not done Halls of Atonement once. Not even on normal. They had absolutely no idea of what mechanics to watch out for in trash pulls or boss pulls. He admitted this after the 17th wipe before 2nd boss and after it was made clear through his lack of knowledge of the dungeon. Examples of this include:

    - not knowing how to dispell/decurse debuffs off players... not sure if they even saw them, or knew there were things to dispel, but after 50 times of the group telling them to dispel you would think...
    - not standing in giant red circle on 1st boss and getting Feared, which he ran into another group and pulled
    - not being aware of packs behind fences or a long walls, and just kept moving too far out and face pulling multiple packs
    - not knowing to kite the ghost into the pedestal on 3rd boss
    - not knowing to avoid the statues on 4th boss
    .
    See this to me is entirely unacceptable. In particular, the 1st and 3rd points - these are not unique to M+, they are "how to play the game" stuff - group content 101. Why that player wouldnt do normal/heroic/+0 before trying a +5 is beyond me, and in my opinion, quite an arrogant thing to do. This sorta shit is absolutely fine if you are running with friends because A) They can guide you through it on discord and B) the wipes are more likely to result in laughter and mocking than frustration and anger.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post

    Not to defend the category, he was of course BAD, but why did you invite him in the beginning?

    I mean he couldn’t have had a proper rio of if he had it’s probably because he was carried. I usually look also how many runs did people do in my bracket, people with high rio but few runs are automatically excluded.
    I dont agree with this mindset at all - outside of LFR and normal/heroic dungeons, which in my opinion are intended as a means to learn the content, I think the responsibility lies firmly on the shoulders of those applying.

    If you have done a 4, and queue for a 5, thats totally fine, how else would you progress. But queuing for a +5, skipping normal, heroic, Mythic, M+2, +3, and +4 - thats arrogant, and unacceptable.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    See this to me is entirely unacceptable. In particular, the 1st and 3rd points - these are not unique to M+, they are "how to play the game" stuff - group content 101. Why that player wouldnt do normal/heroic/+0 before trying a +5 is beyond me, and in my opinion, quite an arrogant thing to do. This sorta shit is absolutely fine if you are running with friends because A) They can guide you through it on discord and B) the wipes are more likely to result in laughter and mocking than frustration and anger.

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    I dont agree with this mindset at all - outside of LFR and normal/heroic dungeons, which in my opinion are intended as a means to learn the content, I think the responsibility lies firmly on the shoulders of those applying.

    If you have done a 4, and queue for a 5, thats totally fine, how else would you progress. But queuing for a +5, skipping normal, heroic, Mythic, M+2, +3, and +4 - thats arrogant, and unacceptable.
    If you don’t have rio installed, yes, if you have it installed there’s no way someone could get to about 300 rio (all dungeons +4 are roughly 320 points) with less then 10 dungeons done in the below 5 bracket, unless he has been carried.

    Also ilvl rewards are so badly tuned that basically you can get to a point where you need to do 7-9 dungeons to get gear upgrades even before setting foot in M+ so it’s not unusual to see applying for 4-6 bracket ppl with zero experience, because doing 1-3 bracket would be a waste of time gear wise.

    I’m still in the 7-9 bracket for example with 740 rio because I want to do some more exp before attacking the 10-12 bracket, but I’m 204 ilvl and gear from 7-9 bracket is almost totally useless.

  3. #203
    All I can say is, if you want toxic M+ players, join Tichondrius and Illidan groups...say no more.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    Since we are sharing personal experiences, I thought I'd share one from this morning which I think is a true example of real toxicity.


    Did a +5 Halls of Atonement helping carrying my friend's alternate character. All other players were pugged players including tank, healer, and 3rd damage dealer.


    The healer had not done Halls of Atonement once. Not even on normal. They had absolutely no idea of what mechanics to watch out for in trash pulls or boss pulls. He admitted this after the 17th wipe before 2nd boss and after it was made clear through his lack of knowledge of the dungeon. Examples of this include:

    - not knowing how to dispell/decurse debuffs off players... not sure if they even saw them, or knew there were things to dispel, but after 50 times of the group telling them to dispel you would think...
    - not standing in giant red circle on 1st boss and getting Feared, which he ran into another group and pulled
    - not being aware of packs behind fences or a long walls, and just kept moving too far out and face pulling multiple packs
    - not knowing to kite the ghost into the pedestal on 3rd boss
    - not knowing to avoid the statues on 4th boss


    ...and these are just some examples. This was the entire dungeon. I spent more time typing out and informing them of what they are doing wrong and how to avoid it. All I was met with back is, "well you all keep fucking dying and making me work harder" and "I know how to tell, you guys keep dying to dumb shit" and things like that. I didn't want him to leave out of anger, even after the other pugs were pointing out what he was doing wrong that was causing deaths (face pulling, not dispelling, etc.) and I finally said: "you can't out heal mistakes that are intended to kill the group. Fix the mistakes *you are* making" to which he just stated he put everybody on ignore.


    When we finally killed the boss, even though I was apparently on ignore, I said, "it's not smart nor is it fair to go into a M+ dungeon knowing full and well you have never been here and end ruining it for everybody else" but I guess I wasn't on ignore? He responded and said "hey I did my best" ...and I guess that's a thing.


    Doesn't change they knowingly went into a +5 without even doing a normal first, and could not adjust properly. Perhaps they didn't think it would be that bad? Perhaps they honestly though they would just "out heal" or they "out geared" the content? Who knows.


    The fact that you willfully go into content and proceed to fail at things that make the group wipe/fail the content is toxic. It's almost on the level of purposely griefing others if you ask me. Refusing to acknowledge your own mistakes while immediately proceeding flaming other people like "stop dying to shit" when the death came from your personal mistakes is even more toxic. It shows not only you don't know what is happening, but you resort to blaming others before even considering your position. That attitude is peak toxicity.


    I have a blacklist addon and he was swiftly added. Sucks he was a healer, as this whole thread seems to back-up healers. I have his name if any of you want it, I'll PM it to you.
    And this is one of those many, many cases where RIO probably would have helped you filtered a little. But we have people going "oh he could have bought it" etc.
    Unless a group is specifically labeled as a learning group, I do think going into a dungeon without knowing what you are getting into is irresponsible to the other members.

    As far as the general topic goes, toxicity has very little to do with overall abilities and more about attitude. A person can be very good at what he's doing and makes the game unplayable to others, but a person can also be very bad at it and cause the same effect, and people need to really separate toxicity from abilities.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolvarg View Post

    Sadly there's no good way yet to filter people with arrogant, narcissistic and condescending tendencies. Because I'd rather spend 1 hour on a failed run than waste 1 minute in a group with people like you.
    This is my mindset aswell. And, from my experience, these are also ALWAYS the worse guys in the group. Quick to insult and leave and yet struggling to keep with the tanks dps, complaining about "aggroing" fixated mobs, pulling ahead without checking the healers mana or tank's HP. Its always someone elses fault because they don't know enough about mechanics to realise its their own.
    Also, being shitty to someone else online acomplishes nothing. Best case scenario they ignore you and nothing changes, except now they will fell shitty. Worse case they talk back and you're typing instead of playing.

  6. #206
    Being awful at a game isn't being toxic. Thinking so shows a distinct lack of understanding of what the word entails in a gaming community. It means a social interaction that is so inherently rude and offensive that it drives you to quit the game.

    For the millionth time people really need to be blaming Blizzard for not properly explaining shit to anyone ever. What the fuck do you expect to happen?
    Last edited by Otimus; 2021-02-23 at 12:50 PM.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Taking the knockback has not that much to do with rio.

    It’s a BAD and meaninglessly punishing mechanic imho because if you can’t avoid it it means death 99 on 100 unless you are perfectly in line with the portal so that you will hit it instead. I don’t even know how it make into live and I hope it will be one of the next things that will be heavily nerfed in ToP.
    It's massively telegraphed mechanic with plenty of time to react. Getting anything more than a slight chance of survival on it would be lol. Attacks who allow you to prepare for it have to be punishing otherwise what's the point of letting you to avoid it? Boss frontals/beams let you prepare for them too, if you don't you are likely dead or have killed someone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Ventunax balls or Stradama tentacles
    Tentacles are the same, plenty of time to prepare. I appreciate that as a healer there might be some other distractions, but that is what defines a good healer.
    Balls are for the tank to position where they come from and for DPS to push before it gets too much but right positioning and camera angle is the personal responsibility if you want to dodge.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    It's massively telegraphed mechanic with plenty of time to react. Getting anything more than a slight chance of survival on it would be lol. Attacks who allow you to prepare for it have to be punishing otherwise what's the point of letting you to avoid it? Boss frontals/beams let you prepare for them too, if you don't you are likely dead or have killed someone else.



    Tentacles are the same, plenty of time to prepare. I appreciate that as a healer there might be some other distractions, but that is what defines a good healer.
    Balls are for the tank to position where they come from and for DPS to push before it gets too much but right positioning and camera angle is the personal responsibility if you want to dodge.
    Beams and aoe bosses effects are marked: you can see where they will hit before they hit. Pushing winds not. You can see they appeared but you can’t see where they will go. That’s why for me it’s a bad mechanic.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Otimus View Post
    Being awful at a game isn't being toxic. Thinking so shows a distinct lack of understanding of what the word entails in a gaming community. It means a social interaction that is so inherently rude and offensive that it drives you to quit the game.

    For the millionth time people really need to be blaming Blizzard for not properly explaining shit to anyone ever. What the fuck do you expect to happen?
    Being awful at the game isn't toxic. Being awful at the game and expecting to be carried through higher keys in pugs is toxic. By the time you are in higher keys, you've gone thru the dungeon on normal, heroic, mythic, 10+ levels of keys. Blizzard does a great job of explaining mechanics by letting u slightly rise in difficulty each time.

    Its like lying on your resume to get a job you have no place being in. Then when the business fails, you're like "lol sorry, stop being mean to me"

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Beams and aoe bosses effects are marked: you can see where they will hit before they hit. Pushing winds not. You can see they appeared but you can’t see where they will go. That’s why for me it’s a bad mechanic.
    The winds spawn in front of the guy. Look at the 10 foot tall skeleton. See the big black swirling vortex of death in front of him. It only moves directly in front of him. Sidestep so you are no longer directly in front of him.

    You CAN see where they will go.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Beams and aoe bosses effects are marked: you can see where they will hit before they hit. Pushing winds not. You can see they appeared but you can’t see where they will go. That’s why for me it’s a bad mechanic.
    Sidestep the pushing wind. They will go straight in front on the mob once they are fired. They are just not telegraphed.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Being awful at the game isn't toxic. Being awful at the game and expecting to be carried through higher keys in pugs is toxic. By the time you are in higher keys, you've gone thru the dungeon on normal, heroic, mythic, 10+ levels of keys. Blizzard does a great job of explaining mechanics by letting u slightly rise in difficulty each time.

    Its like lying on your resume to get a job you have no place being in. Then when the business fails, you're like "lol sorry, stop being mean to me"

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    The winds spawn in front of the guy. Look at the 10 foot tall skeleton. See the big black swirling vortex of death in front of him. It only moves directly in front of him. Sidestep so you are no longer directly in front of him.

    You CAN see where they will go.
    I'd argue that being able to even attempt to do something you're extremely ill equipped to even really seriously participate in is a massive error in game design, and if you're a player who actively knows this and still do it, that may be stupid, but I really don't think these people exist. there's a massive amount of ignorance to the audience in the game due to Blizzard literally not explaining much of the game past mere basics, like... How to move. it feels like a game from the early 90s that wants to be a game from the late 2000s pretty often imho. (I think it's mostly Blizzard is just too cheap and lazy to properly integrate tutorials, proper ones, along the way, when they can just rely on people boosting to the next expansion with no idea what to do, getting frustrated, unsubbing, and waiting for the next person to do the same)

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Blizzard does a great job of explaining mechanics by letting u slightly rise in difficulty each time.
    To be fair, there are some very subtle mechanics that most players will never know about unless they read about them in a guide. They will just die and think what happened. And even though I think that people should read guides, I still agree that Blizzard could do a better job of making people aware of certain mechanics in game.

    Toxicity in dungeons often happens when people think they know what's going on but they really don't.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Healzerbot View Post
    Only thing that makes M+ toxic is the players that don't know what they are doing.

    When running high keys there is little or no chance at failure. Miss a interrupt and it could lead to a wipe depending how the party's health is. Example: Golems in SoA, those bad dudes can kill you.

    It's not toxic to expect someone that joins high content to know what spells need to be interrupted, when to use personals.

    As a healer I track people's CDs, I'll always heal a person that has there personals on CD over someone who doesn't. Oh you died because you were staying in "fire" but your CD isn't on CD, sorry the other dps who's cd just ran out needs me more.

    I don't understand how people are called toxic because they are pushing higher content and expect other people to have a clue what they are doing. Do you plan on raiding without knowing the tactics, it's the same thing.
    This. Yes. Thank you.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    To be fair, there are some very subtle mechanics that most players will never know about unless they read about them in a guide. They will just die and think what happened. And even though I think that people should read guides, I still agree that Blizzard could do a better job of making people aware of certain mechanics in game.

    Toxicity in dungeons often happens when people think they know what's going on but they really don't.
    I get that, but after +10, you shldve gone thru it on tyrannical and fortified where these mechanics are amplified. Everytime I get blown up and I'm like wtf is that, I hit the recap button and learn what the ability is named. Then on packs with similar mobs, I look for that being casted.

    I'm not sure how blizz could help players anymore without making them take a test where every single ability is spelled out. How would blizz teach players better?

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    I get that, but after +10, you shldve gone thru it on tyrannical and fortified where these mechanics are amplified. Everytime I get blown up and I'm like wtf is that, I hit the recap button and learn what the ability is named. Then on packs with similar mobs, I look for that being casted.

    I'm not sure how blizz could help players anymore without making them take a test where every single ability is spelled out. How would blizz teach players better?
    Last paragraph could be a “dungeon training mode” I proposed some time ago, being totally ignored.

    I would just love to wipe at Gorechop or Stradama until I perfectly manage hooks and tentacles (for example) without having to do it “live” risking to ruin runs.

    I understand that many have not this issue but we are not all the same and we have different learning curves. Bosses that are a joke for someone can be difficult for someone else and viceversa.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    I get that, but after +10, you shldve gone thru it on tyrannical and fortified where these mechanics are amplified. Everytime I get blown up and I'm like wtf is that, I hit the recap button and learn what the ability is named. Then on packs with similar mobs, I look for that being casted.

    I'm not sure how blizz could help players anymore without making them take a test where every single ability is spelled out. How would blizz teach players better?
    Personally I think they should make more very challenging solo tutorial content like the Mage Towers where players could experience dungeon-like mechanics and be solely responsible for dealing with them correctly. This way if they fail it would be their fault alone and they couldn't rely on other players to carry them. Content like this would force players to be much more aware of mechanics and learn if they wanted to progress it.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    Beams and aoe bosses effects are marked: you can see where they will hit before they hit. Pushing winds not. You can see they appeared but you can’t see where they will go. That’s why for me it’s a bad mechanic.
    How can't you see it? it there is a mob and there is a tornado, you draw a straight line from mob face to the tornado and that's where it goes.

    Ventunax balls are rotating in very predictable pattern. Tanks and melee actually stand on the source and dodge it. It's only hard during second intermission when you have 4 sources just because of sheer amount of them, not because you can't see it. Ofc. it depends on the tank. I would even call a good mechanic because you can avoid it if you are skilled. Someting like Muezalas dot or ToP last boss shadow+physical cleave just kills you without any chance to survive no matter how skilled you are.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by erifwodahs View Post
    How can't you see it? it there is a mob and there is a tornado, you draw a straight line from mob face to the tornado and that's where it goes.

    Ventunax balls are rotating in very predictable pattern. Tanks and melee actually stand on the source and dodge it. It's only hard during second intermission when you have 4 sources just because of sheer amount of them, not because you can't see it. Ofc. it depends on the tank. I would even call a good mechanic because you can avoid it if you are skilled. Someting like Muezalas dot or ToP last boss shadow+physical cleave just kills you without any chance to survive no matter how skilled you are.
    I usually don’t watch mobs “faces”, I’m too busy healing and avoiding bad things on the ground. Now that you made me notice this, I will surely give a look next times.

    Ventunax balls are a different story, when they start spawning from different positions at the same time it becomes hard, also because basically I can’t heal while moving except from during nature’s swiftness that has a limited duration. For me is by far the toughest boss in SoA, all the others have more predictable and avoidable mechanics. I have clearly issues with “things coming to me at high speed” (see also Stradama tentacles or Gorechop hooks I mentioned before or Sanguine Depths last boss lazers).

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    For me is by far the toughest boss in SoA, all the others have more predictable and avoidable mechanics
    It is one of the harder bosses in SL.
    Tank is dictating where the orbs are coming from - if he drops the spots in 4 different random locations - good luck.
    My advice is put two spots one on another and then directly opposite side of the room and do the same so melee has easier time dodging during active phase and when recharge starts they only have to dodge balls from two directions.. OR tank in the middle all the times if you have 4 ranged players in the group so there will be lots of balls but only one direction to watch out for.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Healzerbot View Post
    It's not toxic to expect someone that joins high content to know what spells need to be interrupted, when to use personals.
    No it isn't. However, when people get called derogatory words for gay people for making a mistake, that's toxic, I don't care who you are. Doing crap like that is never justified and only reinforces the already negative stigma that the RIO community has.

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