The real toxic people in M+

[Advent]

It’s not exactly like this. At least not healer side. On a side note, yesterday I ran a +10 SoA with these 1200+ ppl carrying a mage with lower rio (it was higher than mine anyways). The mage died horribly a lot of times, not a single phrase in the chat, I died ONCE at Devos (was out of the circle, didn’t even notice it) and the char text was “are you a new player?”. Yes I am a new player and I survived all the previous bosses purely by chance.

We timed it but I was insta kicked after because I was “bad”. Wrong group probably but the higher you get, the worse it is.

- - - Updated - - -


That is partially because ilvl gear progress, at least in S1, is flawed.

As I said some time ago, with enough luck with world bosses you can basically hit ilvl 200 even before setting a single foot in M+. This means that to have some gear upgrades in the dungeon drops, you should have to run at least a +10. It’s just natural that ppl try to avoid lower brackets even with zero experience, since they won’t receive any upgrades for wasting time on sub 10 brackets.

I ran more or less 60 M+ till now and I’m still ilvl 205 with 800 rio, just started to approach the +10 this week, many of my guildies are around 200 and never saw anything past Heroic dungeons, they are asking themselves why they have to waste tons of time in doing dozens of 2-9 M+ that do not give them any useful loot.

This issue will maybe just disappear as soon as S2 pops out, but today is a issue indeed.

I've often considered this ideology when I played, because it might be true. If it is true, I couldn't come up with a reasonable method of fixing it though. Lowering the amount of gear one gets simply causes anyone looking for power upgrades (But aren't interested in doing significantly harder content) will often cap out after about a week, and then at least some of their motivation for engaging with the content (or even the game itself in some cases) is essentially gone. My personal skill level could, for the sake of argument, cap out at around heroic dungeons (queue content). Progression through that avenue is exceedingly fast, and I'm not sure slowing it down would be beneficial to the game as a whole, at this point.

[chiddie]

I've often considered this ideology when I played, because it might be true. If it is true, I couldn't come up with a reasonable method of fixing it though. Lowering the amount of gear one gets simply causes anyone looking for power upgrades (But aren't interested in doing significantly harder content) will often cap out after about a week, and then at least some of their motivation for engaging with the content (or even the game itself in some cases) is essentially gone. My personal skill level could, for the sake of argument, cap out at around heroic dungeons (queue content). Progression through that avenue is exceedingly fast, and I'm not sure slowing it down would be beneficial to the game as a whole, at this point.

The issue usually fixes by itself as long as the seasons go, when S2 will pop-out probably the gap between WQ/covenant loot and M+ loot will start to be higher, so that people won’t think that running anything below a +10 even with zero experience will be a waste of time.

But nowadays it’s really hard to convince people that wasting tons of hours in no loot content is “good” because it’s like this that you learn. I also fear that 9.0.5 won’t change much because in order to get meaningful upgrades over ilvl 200 you need to complete all dungeons at +5 AND grind valor points also. But with zero experience 5-6 won’t be a walk in the park even if you’re 200, unless you’re being carried.

[Advent]

The issue usually fixes by itself as long as the seasons go, when S2 will pop-out probably the gap between WQ/covenant loot and M+ loot will start to be higher, so that people won’t think that running anything below a +10 even with zero experience will be a waste of time.

But nowadays it’s really hard to convince people that wasting tons of hours in no loot content is “good” because it’s like this that you learn. I also fear that 9.0.5 won’t change much because in order to get meaningful upgrades over ilvl 200 you need to complete all dungeons at +5 AND grind valor points also. But with zero experience 5-6 won’t be a walk in the park even if you’re 200, unless you’re being carried.

Maybe. I think you guys might see this issue crop up again (As it tends to) in patch 3, which is usually when world content (And dungeons) scale up again, and people are obtaining loot equivalent to entry-level Mythic+ dungeons.

[chiddie]

Maybe. I think you guys might see this issue crop up again (As it tends to) in patch 3, which is usually when world content (And dungeons) scale up again, and people are obtaining loot equivalent to entry-level Mythic+ dungeons.

It’s not an issue for me, I am slowly grinding my way to 15 and I think I’ll eventually hit them some time before S2 hits, I was only trying to explain why today we are seeing a lot of ppl with ultra low rio (under 400) applying for 10+: they lack the proper experience but they have the appropriate gear level, the latter part not being their fault.

[Advent]

It’s not an issue for me, I am slowly grinding my way to 15 and I think I’ll eventually hit them some time before S2 hits, I was only trying to explain why today we are seeing a lot of ppl with ultra low rio (under 400) applying for 10+: they lack the proper experience but they have the appropriate gear level, the latter part not being their fault.

Sure, I didn't mean you specifically, I mean people who are still playing, as a general community. I just like discussing game mechanics here, that's all.

[ellieg]

It’s not exactly like this. At least not healer side. On a side note, yesterday I ran a +10 SoA with these 1200+ ppl carrying a mage with lower rio (it was higher than mine anyways). The mage died horribly a lot of times, not a single phrase in the chat, I died ONCE at Devos (was out of the circle, didn’t even notice it) and the char text was “are you a new player?”. Yes I am a new player and I survived all the previous bosses purely by chance.

We timed it but I was insta kicked after because I was “bad”. Wrong group probably but the higher you get, the worse it is.

- - - Updated - - -


That is partially because ilvl gear progress, at least in S1, is flawed.

As I said some time ago, with enough luck with world bosses you can basically hit ilvl 200 even before setting a single foot in M+. This means that to have some gear upgrades in the dungeon drops, you should have to run at least a +10. It’s just natural that ppl try to avoid lower brackets even with zero experience, since they won’t receive any upgrades for wasting time on sub 10 brackets.

I ran more or less 60 M+ till now and I’m still ilvl 205 with 800 rio, just started to approach the +10 this week, many of my guildies are around 200 and never saw anything past Heroic dungeons, they are asking themselves why they have to waste tons of time in doing dozens of 2-9 M+ that do not give them any useful loot.

This issue will maybe just disappear as soon as S2 pops out, but today is a issue indeed.

Ppl need to realize that you run the m+ for the great vault reward while building your rio. Except for 1 or 2 slots, no one in the higher m+ is running it for gear drops either. At +15, you'll be at 215+ ilvl already.

[Necromantic]

Who is talking about "insulting people"? Let me repeat one more time:
Competitive players that find it fun to do their best want to play with people with a similar mindset. They don't want to play with people that don't find it fun to be as good as they can be. They actually do their best to avoid the wilfully bad and have no reason to talk to them.

So players that take pride in doing their best naturally seek out players like themselves. A small in-game, but overrepresented here, minority expects those players to carry them and that small minority is doing its best to guilt-shame the players that care to carry them.
A fine example of such guilt-shaming is your last sentence.

How does a casual person know someone else is competitive? There is no indication. How does somebody know just by my score that I'm not competitive but don't play 23 hours a day like they may? How do they know the person is willfully bad? Did they ask the person? Or are they making an uneducated assumption based on a number and choosing to be judgmental based upon that? If you're someone doing 15s and I return to the game after a long break and have only reached 8, for example. You'll look at that and assume that I don't want to be the best I can? That doesn't sound like a fair assessment.

Where is this minority that expects to be carried? Is this including the fact that 85% of people who claim they're carrying people are not?

And my last sentence is truth, based on my experience. Our community gets a bad rap. From the comments I see from us, it's no wonder. We're going around kicking the pigs and mad because they're squealing.

[Asrialol]

Do I understand you correct that you want gear from content that you either are unwilling or unable to do?
This is not how the game works. The game works in such a way that the level of the gear you get is more or less appropriate to the difficulty of the content you do.
And the hardest/most challenging content in WoW is group content: Raids, M+ and arena/RBG.
So if you want that gear then you have to find other people to play with. If you want to play solo or use the automated grouping system then you will get gear appropriate to that difficulty.

And regarding that group content is for the minority then more than 1 million unique characters have tanked 1 or more M+ in SL so far:
https://raider.io/mythic-plus-rankin...MythicLevel=99

If we look at dps then it is more than 3 million unique characters that have timed 1 or more M+ in SL so far.

I haven't been able to find any data on how many characters/guilds that have cleared one or more bosses on heroic.

When I checked a few weeks ago, I believe it was about 0.5% of all players that has killed 1 boss on mythic has also killed Sire.
And if we assume 5 million subs then roughly 5% has killed a boss on heroic.

[Zig Zug]

And my last sentence is truth, based on my experience.

Pretty sure that statement invalid, then.

[Biomega]

How does a casual person know someone else is competitive? There is no indication. How does somebody know just by my score that I'm not competitive but don't play 23 hours a day like they may? How do they know the person is willfully bad? Did they ask the person? Or are they making an uneducated assumption based on a number and choosing to be judgmental based upon that? If you're someone doing 15s and I return to the game after a long break and have only reached 8, for example. You'll look at that and assume that I don't want to be the best I can? That doesn't sound like a fair assessment.

I think you're missing the point behind systems like r.io. It's not about giving a perfect assessment of someone's skill - obviously, as you point out, there are a lot of blind spots in that, and it's only a very rudimentary representation of skill to begin with.

But that's not what r.io is for. It's for giving you a simple way of increasing your CHANCES, on average, of getting better-skilled players. On the whole, people with higher r.io score will be better than people with lower r.io score. Does that mean you'll miss some people whom are really good but don't have high r.io for whatever reason? Absolutely. But you also weed out a lot of people you wouldn't want in your group. That is a tradeoff the system accepts in favor of being simple and easy to use. It sucks for the people who fall through the cracks, no doubt about that; but it's a benefit to a very large number of other people regardless.

It's kind of like, say, school grades - it's an imperfect system that will reduce some very smart people to a singular performance metric that may not be reflective of everyone's actual skill and intelligence; but it's a good enough measure on average to be useful despite that shortcoming.

[Necromantic]

Pretty sure that statement invalid, then.

How so? Basing something off your experience is better than basing off what you heard a guy, who heard a guy say.

I think you're missing the point behind systems like r.io. It's not about giving a perfect assessment of someone's skill - obviously, as you point out, there are a lot of blind spots in that, and it's only a very rudimentary representation of skill to begin with.

But that's not what r.io is for. It's for giving you a simple way of increasing your CHANCES, on average, of getting better-skilled players. On the whole, people with higher r.io score will be better than people with lower r.io score. Does that mean you'll miss some people whom are really good but don't have high r.io for whatever reason? Absolutely. But you also weed out a lot of people you wouldn't want in your group. That is a tradeoff the system accepts in favor of being simple and easy to use. It sucks for the people who fall through the cracks, no doubt about that; but it's a benefit to a very large number of other people regardless.

It's kind of like, say, school grades - it's an imperfect system that will reduce some very smart people to a singular performance metric that may not be reflective of everyone's actual skill and intelligence; but it's a good enough measure on average to be useful despite that shortcoming.

I understand the point of the RIO system. It's to let the community control who does and does not get into your groups by giving them a metric. A flawed metric... but a metric none-the-less. I use it but only because we don't have anything else. And honestly at this point, I think unless Blizzard implemented something official, people wouldn't use anything better if it meant they could not gate others to inflate their egos. And I'm not referring to those who decline someone who is geared for an 8 and applies for a 15.

[Otimus]

Maybe if we were back in 2003 but it's 2021. There are so many sources of information that players have. You got class discords, wowhead, a billion youtubers showing you how to do dungeons. You got mythictrap, r.io, and others that provide you with detailed information about routes, mobs of particular interest (aka priority targets), how to handle bosses (i.e. Tricks to make your life easier).

If a player can't go look up strategies/guides then the problem is with that player.

Additionally, it's not like Blizzard doesn't put in tools either: you have a dungeon journal, you have 3 dungeon difficulties BEFORE M+ keystones. Sure the mechanics are less relevant (and some are non-existent if you're not on M+0), but you can learn them.

You literally can get to the end of the game by playing the game fundamentally wrong, without looking up a single resource about it, and get vastly rewarded along the way for it. You don't think Blizzard deserves any blame at all here?

[Simple Rick]

I'm sure they do but it's not exclusive to WoW. I witness it in other games. Another MMO I play, we allow newer players to tag along and take drops we do not need, which are tremendous boosts to their power. In a way, they're "skipping progress" but some progress is unnecessary in-between.

There are plenty who will want to buy their runs on higher keys for sure. There is nothing wrong with that. They're just asking. Worst case scenario, they're told "no". If the key owner agrees, it was mutually beneficial. But as I told someone else, I've never seen someone flat-out demand to be put in a key they were far too low for. Example, someone decked in +7 gear demanding to be let into a 15. I think people exaggerate or make up those stories. When the spotlight is on you, the quickest defense is to get it shined on someone else.

I see it a lot but granted that isn't proof its wide spread it could be server or even faction based. My point I admit I fumbled a bit is the worst parts of mythic are not really at the start or the end. 0-5 is relaxed and 15+ more or less is just veterans smashing out weekly chest runs. Its the uncomfortable middle ground that the timer really seems to drive people to lash out.

Personally I would have the system allow you to do any level run in any dungeon you wanted. Yes you run the risk of people picking only the "easy" one for weekly bonuses but overall it would created a system that isn't so heavily burdened with opportunity costs.

[Alroxas]

You literally can get to the end of the game by playing the game fundamentally wrong, without looking up a single resource about it, and get vastly rewarded along the way for it. You don't think Blizzard deserves any blame at all here?

End of the game =/= mythic raids, high M+ dungeons or high end PvP arena.

Sure you can stumble along as a LFR/LFD player without having to do any research. But you'll get a ton of shit for it, other players will say "noob player". Can't even do XYZ mechanic in LFR of all places.

The bottom line exists that in 2021, there ARE resources for players out there. And if they aren't willing to educate themselves, then they are contributing to the toxicity.

Basically, it's fine to waste your own time. It is your time but don't waste mine because I highly value my own time.

[Otimus]

End of the game =/= mythic raids, high M+ dungeons or high end PvP arena.

Sure you can stumble along as a LFR/LFD player without having to do any research. But you'll get a ton of shit for it, other players will say "noob player". Can't even do XYZ mechanic in LFR of all places.

The bottom line exists that in 2021, there ARE resources for players out there. And if they aren't willing to educate themselves, then they are contributing to the toxicity.

Basically, it's fine to waste your own time. It is your time but don't waste mine because I highly value my own time.

You don't think there's a fundamental problem that the game does absolutely nothing to prepare you for that via gameplay? You think that's good design? I'm not defending people who don't do the work, I'm just saying.... It's very bad design that nothing prepares you for the endgame. It's freaking sloppy and I'd even say it's sort of a bait and switch. The game should introduce challenges you can't do by yourself as you level and you should, like... Be able to play the game right to reach the level cap.

[Freighter]

You don't think there's a fundamental problem that the game does absolutely nothing to prepare you for that via gameplay? You think that's good design? I'm not defending people who don't do the work, I'm just saying.... It's very bad design that nothing prepares you for the endgame. It's freaking sloppy and I'd even say it's sort of a bait and switch. The game should introduce challenges you can't do by yourself as you level and you should, like... Be able to play the game right to reach the level cap.

I feel the game prepared you for end game by increasingly difficult content as you're lvling and then gearing up. At least if you care to actually learn from your mistakes.

[ZazuuPriest]

the real toxic people in M+ are the latin americans that ruin every key they enter. Even the ones with 1k+ iO are absolute dogshit and i can only assume they have paid for carries.

[ellieg]

Had a beast master hunter in a +15. He "forgot" to lust and "forgot" to dps adds on 2nd boss of NW 2 attempts in a row causing a wipe each time. As lead, I asked if ppl wanted to stay and finish it up since we were not gonna time it. Everyone agreed to give it 1 more attempt. Everyone but the hunter who said it wasn't worth his time.

Try and tell me thats not toxic.

[Mysterymask]

You don't think there's a fundamental problem that the game does absolutely nothing to prepare you for that via gameplay? You think that's good design? I'm not defending people who don't do the work, I'm just saying.... It's very bad design that nothing prepares you for the endgame. It's freaking sloppy and I'd even say it's sort of a bait and switch. The game should introduce challenges you can't do by yourself as you level and you should, like... Be able to play the game right to reach the level cap.

I mean..games in general have an easy mode and wow is no exception... I can play Celeste on Assist mode and FF7 Remake on Classic and make the game a cake walk if I so pleased. Wow is no different and it's not a flaw in game design its catering to a large group of audiences.

[GreatNameForSmurfingExTee]

Just went a NW 15+, everything went kinda smooth. The tank pulled 2 unnecessary groups and we arrived with 7 minutes at the endboss. Two guys had a DC shortly after we pulled bc their server just went down. After waiting 2-3 minutes (we all were ready to go by that time) the tank just said "nah, i'll go 14 and time it there" and left. That was the 3rd time today, a french player just fkt up and ragequitted