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  1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Maybe if we were back in 2003 but it's 2021. There are so many sources of information that players have. You got class discords, wowhead, a billion youtubers showing you how to do dungeons. You got mythictrap, r.io, and others that provide you with detailed information about routes, mobs of particular interest (aka priority targets), how to handle bosses (i.e. Tricks to make your life easier).

    If a player can't go look up strategies/guides then the problem is with that player.

    Additionally, it's not like Blizzard doesn't put in tools either: you have a dungeon journal, you have 3 dungeon difficulties BEFORE M+ keystones. Sure the mechanics are less relevant (and some are non-existent if you're not on M+0), but you can learn them.
    You literally can get to the end of the game by playing the game fundamentally wrong, without looking up a single resource about it, and get vastly rewarded along the way for it. You don't think Blizzard deserves any blame at all here?

  2. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    I'm sure they do but it's not exclusive to WoW. I witness it in other games. Another MMO I play, we allow newer players to tag along and take drops we do not need, which are tremendous boosts to their power. In a way, they're "skipping progress" but some progress is unnecessary in-between.

    There are plenty who will want to buy their runs on higher keys for sure. There is nothing wrong with that. They're just asking. Worst case scenario, they're told "no". If the key owner agrees, it was mutually beneficial. But as I told someone else, I've never seen someone flat-out demand to be put in a key they were far too low for. Example, someone decked in +7 gear demanding to be let into a 15. I think people exaggerate or make up those stories. When the spotlight is on you, the quickest defense is to get it shined on someone else.
    I see it a lot but granted that isn't proof its wide spread it could be server or even faction based. My point I admit I fumbled a bit is the worst parts of mythic are not really at the start or the end. 0-5 is relaxed and 15+ more or less is just veterans smashing out weekly chest runs. Its the uncomfortable middle ground that the timer really seems to drive people to lash out.

    Personally I would have the system allow you to do any level run in any dungeon you wanted. Yes you run the risk of people picking only the "easy" one for weekly bonuses but overall it would created a system that isn't so heavily burdened with opportunity costs.

  3. #263
    Brewmaster Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otimus View Post
    You literally can get to the end of the game by playing the game fundamentally wrong, without looking up a single resource about it, and get vastly rewarded along the way for it. You don't think Blizzard deserves any blame at all here?
    End of the game =/= mythic raids, high M+ dungeons or high end PvP arena.

    Sure you can stumble along as a LFR/LFD player without having to do any research. But you'll get a ton of shit for it, other players will say "noob player". Can't even do XYZ mechanic in LFR of all places.

    The bottom line exists that in 2021, there ARE resources for players out there. And if they aren't willing to educate themselves, then they are contributing to the toxicity.

    Basically, it's fine to waste your own time. It is your time but don't waste mine because I highly value my own time.
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  4. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    End of the game =/= mythic raids, high M+ dungeons or high end PvP arena.

    Sure you can stumble along as a LFR/LFD player without having to do any research. But you'll get a ton of shit for it, other players will say "noob player". Can't even do XYZ mechanic in LFR of all places.

    The bottom line exists that in 2021, there ARE resources for players out there. And if they aren't willing to educate themselves, then they are contributing to the toxicity.

    Basically, it's fine to waste your own time. It is your time but don't waste mine because I highly value my own time.
    You don't think there's a fundamental problem that the game does absolutely nothing to prepare you for that via gameplay? You think that's good design? I'm not defending people who don't do the work, I'm just saying.... It's very bad design that nothing prepares you for the endgame. It's freaking sloppy and I'd even say it's sort of a bait and switch. The game should introduce challenges you can't do by yourself as you level and you should, like... Be able to play the game right to reach the level cap.

  5. #265
    Old God Freighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otimus View Post
    You don't think there's a fundamental problem that the game does absolutely nothing to prepare you for that via gameplay? You think that's good design? I'm not defending people who don't do the work, I'm just saying.... It's very bad design that nothing prepares you for the endgame. It's freaking sloppy and I'd even say it's sort of a bait and switch. The game should introduce challenges you can't do by yourself as you level and you should, like... Be able to play the game right to reach the level cap.
    I feel the game prepared you for end game by increasingly difficult content as you're lvling and then gearing up. At least if you care to actually learn from your mistakes.

  6. #266
    the real toxic people in M+ are the latin americans that ruin every key they enter. Even the ones with 1k+ iO are absolute dogshit and i can only assume they have paid for carries.

  7. #267
    Had a beast master hunter in a +15. He "forgot" to lust and "forgot" to dps adds on 2nd boss of NW 2 attempts in a row causing a wipe each time. As lead, I asked if ppl wanted to stay and finish it up since we were not gonna time it. Everyone agreed to give it 1 more attempt. Everyone but the hunter who said it wasn't worth his time.

    Try and tell me thats not toxic.

  8. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by Otimus View Post
    You don't think there's a fundamental problem that the game does absolutely nothing to prepare you for that via gameplay? You think that's good design? I'm not defending people who don't do the work, I'm just saying.... It's very bad design that nothing prepares you for the endgame. It's freaking sloppy and I'd even say it's sort of a bait and switch. The game should introduce challenges you can't do by yourself as you level and you should, like... Be able to play the game right to reach the level cap.
    I mean..games in general have an easy mode and wow is no exception... I can play Celeste on Assist mode and FF7 Remake on Classic and make the game a cake walk if I so pleased. Wow is no different and it's not a flaw in game design its catering to a large group of audiences.

  9. #269
    Just went a NW 15+, everything went kinda smooth. The tank pulled 2 unnecessary groups and we arrived with 7 minutes at the endboss. Two guys had a DC shortly after we pulled bc their server just went down. After waiting 2-3 minutes (we all were ready to go by that time) the tank just said "nah, i'll go 14 and time it there" and left. That was the 3rd time today, a french player just fkt up and ragequitted
    Last edited by GreatNameForSmurfingExTee; Today at 12:04 AM. Reason: typo

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    How so?
    Because truth, by its nature is universal.

    Experience, and perspective are highly subjective.

    For better context - I don't disagree with your assessment, but it was an observation, not the conclusion.
    Give a man a bro, he chills for a day. Teach a man to chill, he'll have bros for life.

  11. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    How does a casual person know someone else is competitive? There is no indication. How does somebody know just by my score that I'm not competitive but don't play 23 hours a day like they may? How do they know the person is willfully bad? Did they ask the person? Or are they making an uneducated assumption based on a number and choosing to be judgmental based upon that? If you're someone doing 15s and I return to the game after a long break and have only reached 8, for example. You'll look at that and assume that I don't want to be the best I can? That doesn't sound like a fair assessment.

    Where is this minority that expects to be carried? Is this including the fact that 85% of people who claim they're carrying people are not?

    And my last sentence is truth, based on my experience. Our community gets a bad rap. From the comments I see from us, it's no wonder. We're going around kicking the pigs and mad because they're squealing.
    Someone with 800 rio applying to a 13 or 15 is willfully bad.

    Even someone that returns for a break and want to play the best he can will run the appropriate keys for his skill level and rio. If he has 800 rio, he will try to grind all the 8 then all the 9 keys etc...

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Freighter View Post
    I feel the game prepared you for end game by increasingly difficult content as you're lvling and then gearing up. At least if you care to actually learn from your mistakes.
    I don't think it does this at all. Mistakes aren't punished, they're rewarded, and there is no difficulty curve.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mysterymask View Post
    I mean..games in general have an easy mode and wow is no exception... I can play Celeste on Assist mode and FF7 Remake on Classic and make the game a cake walk if I so pleased. Wow is no different and it's not a flaw in game design its catering to a large group of audiences.
    There aren't difficulty "modes", the game is just extremely easy, and overly forgiving until you hit the brick wall at the end. The endgame has difficulty modes. The rest of the game is different, vastly different.

  13. #273
    If you google the meaning of toxic it has little to nothing to do with what you describe. It seems you are trying to justify the fact that you might be a toxic players because you cant cope with failure, and end up saying/doing stuff you shouldn't.
    Get a premade, promote good attitude towards others, be a decent person!

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Otimus View Post
    There aren't difficulty "modes", the game is just extremely easy, and overly forgiving until you hit the brick wall at the end. The endgame has difficulty modes. The rest of the game is different, vastly different.
    I agree. The problem is that every time Blizzard actually make difficult solo content that people can potentially learn from (e.g. Mage Towers and Horrific visions) a lot of players start throwing hissy fits and complain that they are not able to complete it. A lot of people just don't want to get any better. They simply want all content to be trivialized.

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    I agree. The problem is that every time Blizzard actually make difficult solo content that people can potentially learn from (e.g. Mage Towers and Horrific visions) a lot of players start throwing hissy fits and complain that they are not able to complete it. A lot of people just don't want to get any better. They simply want all content to be trivialized.
    All content is trivialised by gear, the last exception was challenge modes

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by fathom81 View Post
    If you google the meaning of toxic it has little to nothing to do with what you describe. It seems you are trying to justify the fact that you might be a toxic players because you cant cope with failure, and end up saying/doing stuff you shouldn't.
    Get a premade, promote good attitude towards others, be a decent person!
    Or do not play in such ways that would incite others to be toxic, in other words, git gud or play with equally bad players.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by fathom81 View Post
    All content is trivialised by gear, the last exception was challenge modes
    Lots of people whined when the Mage Tower was released because they could not do it in one go.

    What about Thorghast ? Still lots of people crying because they can't do it while it has been severely nerfed.

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