The real toxic people in M+

[Kaver]

It's toxic to make mistakes while in a PUG now?

It depends WHY you are making mistakes. Learning is fine. Everyone does it. But if you make mistakes in a +15 key based on you having no idea what's going on then it's not good.

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Erupting Darkness is a 4s cast, then beams in front of him, damaging and knocking back players. It should have been dodged completely. Now I get that melee (in the heat of battle) might not have seen it, but this is a ranged Hunter who could have easily sidestepped away.

Talk about a lack a context.. jesus..

I know how the mechanic works dude. You don't have to explain. We were talking about why the hunter didn't receive a heal for 12 seconds. I explained that he probably was at full health most of the time. Then you butt in with some completely irrelevant explanation of how Erupting Darkness works... read the context before you post.

[tehealadin]

It depends WHY you are making mistakes. Learning is fine. Everyone does it. But if you make mistakes in a +15 key based on you having no idea what's going on then it's not good.

Agreed, you do the learning on lower keys. If going into a +15, you need to know what you are doing, expecting others to pick up the slack is unfair to the group.

[Advent]

Agreed, you do the learning on lower keys. If going into a +15, you need to know what you are doing, expecting others to pick up the slack is unfair to the group.

I find that never quite worked for me. What could easily be cheesed in lower keys suddenly couldn't in higher keys. Strategies and affixes were often handled very differently in higher keys as well, and I'd discover that what worked in a +7, +8, or +9 suddenly didn't work at +10 (For example). There appeared to be multiple breakpoints, such that one couldn't easily discern what would work, and where/when. This was during BfA, and I have no idea if they ever addressed this. The idea that learning happens in lower keys was only true some of the time, for dungeons that didn't change much. And you could forget asking questions, because nobody wanted to hear that at all, even at the lower keys.

[tehealadin]

I find that never quite worked for me. What could easily be cheesed in lower keys suddenly couldn't in higher keys. Strategies and affixes were often handled very differently in higher keys as well, and I'd discover that what worked in a +7, +8, or +9 suddenly didn't work at +10 (For example). There appeared to be multiple breakpoints, such that one couldn't easily discern what would work, and where/when. This was during BfA, and I have no idea if they ever addressed this. The idea that learning happens in lower keys was only true some of the time, for dungeons that didn't change much. And you could forget asking questions, because nobody wanted to hear that at all, even at the lower keys.

I meant more for basic core mechanics and layout, I appreciate that above a certain point, lower keys aren't a good reference for certain tactics. However now and again you get people who get hit with things and it is like "how did you not know that happened?!".

I agree that asking questions, well at best you were rolling the dice. I personally prefer if someone didn't know and asks, so I can help and we can hopefully avoid any issues, though a significant chunk of people react in a very hostile way to that.

[Loveliest]

In general, toxic is when someone causes someone to feel really bad on purpose and this being the only purpose. It is usually done either for no reason (sociopathic in nature) or as an act of vengeance against someone who "wronged them" (though usually not on purpose, not with any malicious intention and not done specifically against the toxic player).

That aside, you have a lot of subjective details there. For example "not know what they're doing" is subjective. There is no universal "this is how it's done".
For example, I was in a leveling dungeon (a normal, not an M+) and the tank was bitching about someone using the orb in necrotic wake to interrupt the adds on the second boss instead of using it to pull the whole room at the third boss. Then the tank proceeded to pull the whole room and wipes the group to make a point of why "This is why you don't use the orb there, you who used the orb wrong are just a bad player". This is toxic - it had no place, no point and the result was vengeful and idiotic because the tank could not adapt to someone doing something differently.
And this is where toxicity usually comes from. A good player will adapt and make things work. A "good" player will only know how to do things "as they should be done" and insult everyone and anyone for something going wrong. It will always be somebody else's fault - the tank for doing a shit route, a bloodlusting at the wrong time, the healer not dispelling something, someone asspulling and so on. They will most likely never be able to adapt themselves and just keep pugging until stars align and they are faced with a group that "knows what they are doing" (playing exactly as they expect them to). This, funnily enough, makes for people think they are good because they timed their 17s or somesuch after failing 25 times each, making them even more toxic in the process and also, most likely, the target of somebody else's toxicity.

So all in all, sure, loads of ppl have low dps, make mistakes, don't know the fights, but this never justifies insults. People who are not able to adapt and who only blame others are just as bad as the clueless ones - they will most likely fuck up your keys just as much.

[Advent]

I meant more for basic core mechanics and layout, I appreciate that above a certain point, lower keys aren't a good reference for certain tactics. However now and again you get people who get hit with things and it is like "how did you not know that happened?!".

I agree that asking questions, well at best you were rolling the dice. I personally prefer if someone didn't know and asks, so I can help and we can hopefully avoid any issues, though a significant chunk of people react in a very hostile way to that.

Basic knowledge of mechanics isn't a huge ask. But keep in mind that lower-end dungeons occasionally had mechanics you could flat out ignore, only to suddenly be unable to survive in the next tier above it. Happened to me in BfA, and this guy went OFF. Who knew I had to do the mechanic that way? In the lower keys, I never had to. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[T-34]

Doing this is inconsiderate, but not toxic. We dont need to paint every poor decision as malicious, some people just aren't very good and manage to get by without learning things until its too late.

We don't need to paint every uttering as malicious, some people use the language in a different way...
See, I can also play your game.

[Kolvarg]

Do you plan on raiding without knowing the tactics, it's the same thing.

Yes. It's a game, not a job. It's supposed to be fun.

For you, fun might be to spend hours doing "homework" learning tactics, best routes, and overall maximizing your chance of timing a key to the tiniest detail. For many, fun comes from learning as you go, and adapting to the situation.

No one's saying it's toxic to expect someone to meet certain standards - perhaps unrealistic, but not toxic. What's toxic is when it turns to berating people, giving up on runs, etc, as soon as you deem them to not meet your standards.

Toxicity is in how players interact with each other. Being "bad" at the game is not toxic.


If you care about taking it very seriously and having the best chance of success, I recommend running M+ with the same group of people instead of resorting to randoms. The nature of random groups, even with screening such as r.io and the likes, is that the majority of candidates will likely not match your expectations exactly. And if you do go with randoms, at least make your expectations and standards clear, instead of expecting people to just be inherently up to them.

[T-34]

Toxicity is in how players interact with each other. Being "bad" at the game is not toxic.

No, true toxicity is when you waste other people's time by being wilfully bad.
Refusing to prepare is to be wilfully bad.
Expecting other people to teach you = the desire to be carried is deeply toxic.

Time you can never get back, words you can just ignore.
And rational people never waste words on the wilfully bad because they know that it is a waste of time as they wilfully bad will spend all their energy on justifying their toxicity instead of bettering themselves.

[Kaver]

I find that never quite worked for me. What could easily be cheesed in lower keys suddenly couldn't in higher keys. Strategies and affixes were often handled very differently in higher keys as well, and I'd discover that what worked in a +7, +8, or +9 suddenly didn't work at +10 (For example). There appeared to be multiple breakpoints, such that one couldn't easily discern what would work, and where/when. This was during BfA, and I have no idea if they ever addressed this. The idea that learning happens in lower keys was only true some of the time, for dungeons that didn't change much. And you could forget asking questions, because nobody wanted to hear that at all, even at the lower keys.

But what I'm talking about is not having very specific knowledge about each mechanic on different levels. It's simply about having a basic knowledge of the general mechanics. You would be surprised how many players have no idea what dungeon trash does on a very basic level because they never looked in a guide.

It's the same with mythic raid bosses for example. Do you expect people to one-shot bosses? No of course not. People are going to fail a lot and that's fine. But you expect the raiders to have a basic knowledge of what the boss mechanics do from what they could see in a guide. But some people don't even have the most basic knowledge.

[Charge me Doctor]

Agreed, you do the learning on lower keys. If going into a +15, you need to know what you are doing, expecting others to pick up the slack is unfair to the group.

it never works this way for any type on content. higher keys provide you with a different challenge that requires a different approach. it doesn't work for the same reason, as learning raid fights from LFR and going to normal doesn't work

[Deneios]

This is a good point, there are breakpoints. Someone signing up for 2/3 should know the basic dungeon. Signing up for 4 is learning for 5-6. Signing up for a 7 is learning for 8-9. Signing up for 10 is learning for 11+. As a tank, I'm just breaking into 10+ because I don't like pugging and haven't had a group good enough to do higher keys on. Now I have a group to do them with. I am trying to get into as many of their 10/11 keys as I can so i can learn the paths better and the timing of pridefuls. My goal is to get into the higher keys, but not until I've got the paths down for 10/11 (sometimes they insist I come along anyways).

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You know, this does seem to be the case. I've seen 2 people leave keys (mostly run guild groups) and both were healers (I'm a tank).

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I mean, it seems like they're both wrong. Almost 12 seconds with no heals? Was the paladin TRYING to punish the hunter? But also, the hunter needs to recognize they were standing in stuff.

If the paladin CHOSE not to heal the hunter, yes, that's toxic to me. He should have healed him and asked him not to stand in stuff. If he was just busy, then I get it. The hunter's response is clearly toxic.

If you have a pala healer you stand close to him. They are absolutely useless if you are more than 15 yards away from them and behind.

[erifwodahs]

Basic knowledge of mechanics isn't a huge ask. But keep in mind that lower-end dungeons occasionally had mechanics you could flat out ignore, only to suddenly be unable to survive in the next tier above it. Happened to me in BfA, and this guy went OFF. Who knew I had to do the mechanic that way? In the lower keys, I never had to. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

That has happened to me, but it took literally one time to learn

[WernerCD]

Only thing that makes M+ toxic is the players that don't know what they are doing.

When running high keys there is little or no chance at failure. Miss a interrupt and it could lead to a wipe depending how the party's health is. Example: Golems in SoA, those bad dudes can kill you.

It's not toxic to expect someone that joins high content to know what spells need to be interrupted, when to use personals.

As a healer I track people's CDs, I'll always heal a person that has there personals on CD over someone who doesn't. Oh you died because you were staying in "fire" but your CD isn't on CD, sorry the other dps who's cd just ran out needs me more.

I don't understand how people are called toxic because they are pushing higher content and expect other people to have a clue what they are doing. Do you plan on raiding without knowing the tactics, it's the same thing.

Wanting others to know what's going on isn't toxic... being an a**h**e because they don't is toxic.

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... because they know that it is a waste of time as the wilfully bad will spend all their energy on justifying their toxicity instead of bettering themselves.

I love how the irony is lost on so many toxic people in this thread justifying being toxic to other people for "reasons".

[chiddie]

it never works this way for any type on content. higher keys provide you with a different challenge that requires a different approach. it doesn't work for the same reason, as learning raid fights from LFR and going to normal doesn't work

Also, making a mistake does not necessarily mean I don’t know what do, it could be that I know what to do but I simply fail some specific mechanics for “reasons”.

For example, despite perfectly knowing what to do and how, I still have serious issues dodging certain mechanics, such as Ventunax black fireballs or Stradama tentacles or Gorechop hooks or Stitchflesh grip. And people with me are always astonished because up to those painpoints my healing and survivability are usually flawless.

People make mistakes, there’s nothing wrong with it, it’s just “human”.

[Fitsu]

Only thing that makes M+ toxic is the players that don't know what they are doing.

When running high keys there is little or no chance at failure. Miss a interrupt and it could lead to a wipe depending how the party's health is. Example: Golems in SoA, those bad dudes can kill you.

It's not toxic to expect someone that joins high content to know what spells need to be interrupted, when to use personals.

As a healer I track people's CDs, I'll always heal a person that has there personals on CD over someone who doesn't. Oh you died because you were staying in "fire" but your CD isn't on CD, sorry the other dps who's cd just ran out needs me more.

I don't understand how people are called toxic because they are pushing higher content and expect other people to have a clue what they are doing. Do you plan on raiding without knowing the tactics, it's the same thing.

The elitists that are toxic though are the ones that act like there the best at the game and can do no wrong. I find this more in tanks than anyone, you'll get a PUG tank who'll pull 6 packs and die then blame the healer with the "these are the pulls the top groups do". Yeah cool, but i'm not the best healer in the world, your not the best tank in the world and we're not pushing for rank 1, so chill on the pulls and we'll still time this. They ofcourse ignore this, do the same pull 3 more times, flame and leave.

Also, while I agree you shouldn't join content your not prepared for just throwing insults and stuff at people isn't acceptable behaviour. If I'm in a group and the people clearly just have no idea what there doing and wont listen to advise I just leave. To me that's a perfectly reasonable reaction, no reason to give people shit.

[intenz]

This "toxic" word gets broadened more and more every day by you delicate snowflakes. Lmao. You fail a run because someone missed an interrupt? No you failed because your group is shit and delusional about it. Even the people pushing past +20 are making multiple mistakes per run. If your run is on such a knife edge that one mistake causes you to miss timing it then the key is too hard for your group YOU INCLUDED.

In my experience toxicity in WoW comes from a disconnect between a player's perceived skill level and their actual skill level, and this is true in both PvE and PvP. I've played in LFG with 1800 players who THINK they are glad-level because they got a title in 2009 and this impacts their ability to self-analyse and learn. Similarly I've done keys with people who think they should be doing +20s so if a +15 key is going badly it can't ever be their fault. And honestly usually it's the tank with this attitude. I can recall several tanks having shitty attitudes and being uber tryhards even in lower keys, whereas I've seen some insane dps and healer players with completely chill attitude and no entitlement.

[Aurora]

Refusing to prepare is to be wilfully bad.
Expecting other people to teach you = the desire to be carried is deeply toxic.

Time you can never get back, words you can just ignore.
And rational people never waste words on the wilfully bad because they know that it is a waste of time as they wilfully bad will spend all their energy on justifying their toxicity instead of bettering themselves.

This is the toxic mindset in a nutshell really.

In all likelihood players believe themselves prepared for the content they're signing up to. Sometimes they realise they weren't as prepared as they thought or the comp/affixes throw up new challenges they haven't seen before.

Choosing to interpret that as being "willfully bad", looking to be carried or intentionally wasting people's time is your own distorted fantasy land where random strangers are attempting to cause you harm through a video game. It's not reality at all. Trying to then justify abusing them with "words you can just ignore" is a very poor indication of you as a person.

[Garybear]

Blizz refuses to do anything about curbing the toxic community unfortunately. It is just about as bad as league of legends at this point.

[Kolvarg]

No, true toxicity is when you waste other people's time by being wilfully bad.
Refusing to prepare is to be wilfully bad.
Expecting other people to teach you = the desire to be carried is deeply toxic.

Time you can never get back, words you can just ignore.
And rational people never waste words on the wilfully bad because they know that it is a waste of time as they wilfully bad will spend all their energy on justifying their toxicity instead of bettering themselves.

If you're worried about wasting time, you shouldn't even have WoW installed

What exactly does "toxic" mean to you? Is anything you don't like or approve "toxic"?

If you don't want to play with "wilfully bad players", you are the one responsible for finding people who you don't consider to be that way. You are a single person among millions of players, just be a bit humble and realize your views and opinions are your own and not some universal truth that everyone else must adhere to.

As I've said, the toxicity is in how the players interact with one another. You being offended that a "bad player" is "wasting your time" is your personal issue. You belittling and insulting other players for not matching your standards is the definition of toxicity we're talking about.