The real toxic people in M+

[ellieg]

You either know every mob ability and know what the tank has to do to survive or you just outrange 99% of the abilitys and its hilarious stupid with a mage / druid meta in M+. There is allways a big outcry when melee heavy is even a valid choice for M+, but we are right now back to legions shitshow, just worse, since uncapped AoE is now also a range only thing, so we are way beyond LEGIONs M+ stubity in class balance.

Ya I gotta know what casts to interrupt, gotta know which mobs cleave so when I run out of a mechanic I won't get stomped, then avoid the aoe, and avoid storming or whatever other bullshit affix that week is. Sanguine is fun cause u gotta make sure you are max melee range when they die which isn't hard on ~3 targets but on bigger pulls you gotta stare at every hp bar. And if u mess up and take a tick, you now have grievous lol. Spiteful is another shitty one cause u have 2 secs to see if little red eyes appear above your head after a mob dies. If it does u either gotta stun it instantly or run away and not dps until its gone.

Meanwhile ranged can basically ignore most affixes.

[chiddie]

Pugged a 14 TOP yesterday. The grp was doing fine until we get to the plataforms part.
OMG we had a DK that died almost every pull. Got knoecked back everytime. The key got literally ruined because of him.
Guess who got the loot? the DK of fking course.
I guess I will just need to be a bit more toxic from now on, and be more strict with IO because that's what the game is forcing me to do.

Taking the knockback has not that much to do with rio.

It’s a BAD and meaninglessly punishing mechanic imho because if you can’t avoid it it means death 99 on 100 unless you are perfectly in line with the portal so that you will hit it instead. I don’t even know how it make into live and I hope it will be one of the next things that will be heavily nerfed in ToP.

Some people, like me, are decent healers but have issues with avoiding certain type of stuff. I will probably risk dying to those winds in ToP until the end of SL, there’s not much to do about it.

Other things actually “unavoidable” for me are Ventunax balls or Stradama tentacles, for example.

[chiddie]

death's advance stops him from even being knocked back... wtf...

- - - Updated - - -



only time i died to the knockback was when doing the dungeon the first few times... by now people should avoid it or they have no business being in m+... same with tentacles...

It’s not up to you to decide if ppl have place or not.

I usually tell ppl I will probably die at winds (also Gorechop hooks are quite a pita but I almost learned how to handle them) and usually it’s a no problem since other party members usually also die to other mechanics in there.

[Naville]

Some people, like me, are decent healers but have issues with avoiding certain type of stuff. I will probably risk dying to those winds in ToP until the end of SL, there’s not much to do about it.

Other things actually “unavoidable” for me are Ventunax balls or Stradama tentacles, for example.

I've got a simple advice for you: follow your tank! Put a marker on them, and position the same way. They fail? Nevermind, the pull would have been ruined whatsoever.

Keep in mind that's only for those specific mechanics. Most of the time, standing in front of foes with the tank is a bad idea. And perhaps that's why players don't think about doing it when it's relevant.

[ellieg]

It’s not up to you to decide if ppl have place or not.

I usually tell ppl I will probably die at winds (also Gorechop hooks are quite a pita but I almost learned how to handle them) and usually it’s a no problem since other party members usually also die to other mechanics in there.

What keys are you doing? Cause once you get higher, dying to these avoidable mechanics will cause u to deplete keys and ruin the run. At that point ots blizzard deciding you don't have a place in these runs. They are slow, super visible mechanics

[chiddie]

I've got a simple advice for you: follow your tank! Put a marker on them, and position the same way. They fail? Nevermind, the pull would have been ruined whatsoever.

Keep in mind that's only for those specific mechanics. Most of the time, standing in front of foes with the tank is a bad idea. And perhaps that's why players don't think about doing it when it's relevant.

Gorechop I finally got that either I stop healing and avoid hooks, or I get hooked. If someone dies in those 6-7 seconds... peace, I would have not healed anyways because I would have been hooked.

I now stick with tank during Stradama tentacles phase and it’s getting better.

Pushing whirlwinds in ToP and Ventunax balls I have instead to work on them.

- - - Updated - - -

What keys are you doing? Cause once you get higher, dying to these avoidable mechanics will cause u to deplete keys and ruin the run. At that point ots blizzard deciding you don't have a place in these runs. They are slow, super visible mechanics

I am currently doing 9 and starting 10.

Maybe I’m missing something with the winds in ToP, because to me they are not predictable at all.

Winds spawn but I cannot see any indications on their future directions (such as arrows of the boss on Mists or the hook at Stitchflesh in NW or a big arrow on me or something like that). Maybe there’s a weakaura for that?

[ellieg]

Gorechop I finally got that either I stop healing and avoid hooks, or I get hooked. If someone dies in those 6-7 seconds... peace, I would have not healed anyways because I would have been hooked.

I now stick with tank during Stradama tentacles phase and it’s getting better.

Pushing whirlwinds in ToP and Ventunax balls I have instead to work on them.

- - - Updated - - -


I am currently doing 9 and starting 10.

Maybe I’m missing something with the winds in ToP, because to me they are not predictable at all.

Winds spawn but I cannot see any indications on their future directions (such as arrows of the boss on Mists or the hook at Stitchflesh in NW or a big arrow on me or something like that). Maybe there’s a weakaura for that?

They spawn in front of the big bone caster. After a couple seconds, they will shoot out forward from the caster as of they are pushing it. Hes really tall so just practice keeping an eye on him. He casts it abt every 10 seconds. I can't remember but I think dbm yells at u when its being cast

[Wavebossa]

Only thing that makes M+ toxic is the players that don't know what they are doing.

When running high keys there is little or no chance at failure. Miss a interrupt and it could lead to a wipe depending how the party's health is. Example: Golems in SoA, those bad dudes can kill you.

It's not toxic to expect someone that joins high content to know what spells need to be interrupted, when to use personals.

As a healer I track people's CDs, I'll always heal a person that has there personals on CD over someone who doesn't. Oh you died because you were staying in "fire" but your CD isn't on CD, sorry the other dps who's cd just ran out needs me more.

I don't understand how people are called toxic because they are pushing higher content and expect other people to have a clue what they are doing. Do you plan on raiding without knowing the tactics, it's the same thing.

Alot of truth to this.

Which is why 14s feel easier than 10s when I heal on my disc priest


And no, i'm not being hyperbolic to make a point. I find myself being forced to take Shadow Covenant to emergency spam people standing in bad in 10s. However on a 14-15 with guildies, I know that they are going to do things to keep themselves alive so I can focus more on dps and just keeping them shielded from incoming burst damage.


In fact, I did a 7 on my 2nd Resto sham (trying a new cove) that was the hardest thing I have healed to date this expansion. I think the dps and tank took more Sanguine damage than every other ability combined

[chiddie]

They spawn in front of the big bone caster. After a couple seconds, they will shoot out forward from the caster as of they are pushing it. Hes really tall so just practice keeping an eye on him. He casts it abt every 10 seconds. I can't remember but I think dbm yells at u when its being cast

It’s not that I can’t see when they are casted, I cannot see where they will go that’s why for me it’s a bad designed ability. It could be “good” if it had half the speed (something like first HoA boss black balls speed). Platforms are really tight and usually someone get always pushed. At least the game could take the corpse back to the platform so that the player can be ressed if/when pull ends.

- - - Updated - - -

Alot of truth to this.

Which is why 14s feel easier than 10s when I heal on my disc priest


And no, i'm not being hyperbolic to make a point. I find myself being forced to take Shadow Covenant to emergency spam people standing in bad in 10s. However on a 14-15 with guildies, I know that they are going to do things to keep themselves alive so I can focus more on dps and just keeping them shielded from incoming burst damage.


In fact, I did a 7 on my 2nd Resto sham (trying a new cove) that was the hardest thing I have healed to date this expansion. I think the dps and tank took more Sanguine damage than every other ability combined

Feelbadman, I am a resto shaman in the 8-9-10 bracket and I feel that pain every day XD.

Grievous is even worse XD.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

Since we are sharing personal experiences, I thought I'd share one from this morning which I think is a true example of real toxicity.


Did a +5 Halls of Atonement helping carrying my friend's alternate character. All other players were pugged players including tank, healer, and 3rd damage dealer.


The healer had not done Halls of Atonement once. Not even on normal. They had absolutely no idea of what mechanics to watch out for in trash pulls or boss pulls. He admitted this after the 17th wipe before 2nd boss and after it was made clear through his lack of knowledge of the dungeon. Examples of this include:

- not knowing how to dispell/decurse debuffs off players... not sure if they even saw them, or knew there were things to dispel, but after 50 times of the group telling them to dispel you would think...
- not standing in giant red circle on 1st boss and getting Feared, which he ran into another group and pulled
- not being aware of packs behind fences or a long walls, and just kept moving too far out and face pulling multiple packs
- not knowing to kite the ghost into the pedestal on 3rd boss
- not knowing to avoid the statues on 4th boss


...and these are just some examples. This was the entire dungeon. I spent more time typing out and informing them of what they are doing wrong and how to avoid it. All I was met with back is, "well you all keep fucking dying and making me work harder" and "I know how to tell, you guys keep dying to dumb shit" and things like that. I didn't want him to leave out of anger, even after the other pugs were pointing out what he was doing wrong that was causing deaths (face pulling, not dispelling, etc.) and I finally said: "you can't out heal mistakes that are intended to kill the group. Fix the mistakes *you are* making" to which he just stated he put everybody on ignore.


When we finally killed the boss, even though I was apparently on ignore, I said, "it's not smart nor is it fair to go into a M+ dungeon knowing full and well you have never been here and end ruining it for everybody else" but I guess I wasn't on ignore? He responded and said "hey I did my best" ...and I guess that's a thing.


Doesn't change they knowingly went into a +5 without even doing a normal first, and could not adjust properly. Perhaps they didn't think it would be that bad? Perhaps they honestly though they would just "out heal" or they "out geared" the content? Who knows.


The fact that you willfully go into content and proceed to fail at things that make the group wipe/fail the content is toxic. It's almost on the level of purposely griefing others if you ask me. Refusing to acknowledge your own mistakes while immediately proceeding flaming other people like "stop dying to shit" when the death came from your personal mistakes is even more toxic. It shows not only you don't know what is happening, but you resort to blaming others before even considering your position. That attitude is peak toxicity.


I have a blacklist addon and he was swiftly added. Sucks he was a healer, as this whole thread seems to back-up healers. I have his name if any of you want it, I'll PM it to you.

[chiddie]

Even though you're probably gonna ignore it like you did the others I'll give some help anyways - on stradama the tentacles will never be by the goo add that spawns, and the tentacles that show up have like..3-4ish rotations that they can do. Memorize them and it's smooth sailing, also they hit further than the indicators show and don't stand directly next to the pool cause it can bug and kill you even if you're far away.

Gorechop get something like bigwigs or dbm that will tell you when the chains are coming down. iirc they always alternate walls so just like the sanguine depths second boss just move to the other side of the room and that will give you more time to dodge. The two open slots will always have an add so when you see an hp bar just go to that section of the wall. If your tank doesn't move him before adds die and he does the pull so everyone is slowed that's on them.

second boss in spires is a tank positioning mechanic for the most part so don't really have any suggestions besides asking your tank to know how to place them lol. Semi-circle placement in front of the group has always worked for me.

With all that said, you are exactly the kind of player everyone here is complaining about. All these bosses and adds have extremely telegraphed abilities and yet you blame everyone but yourself for fucking up. The tornado guys literally stand there and channel for several seconds and faces the direction it's going to go, like what more do you need lmao.

What I wanna know is how are you complaining about the tornadoes but not the guys in de other side that do the same thing but only have a tiny purple swirl in front of them to indicate when/where they are gonna cast. Especially since the tornado boys tend to be in small pulls but the swirly bois are only in big pulls with large mobs like the reavers that can block their animations XD

Thank you for the tips.

I don’t remember the part where I blamed others honestly. I do what I can to help the party succeed, sometimes I fail, sometimes others fail, it’s the game. I’m not a pro, I don’t play much, for me it will just be a miracle if I’ll get the +15 achi sometime during the exp cycle.

Ah I didn’t complain about the DoS dudes because I curiously did not notice they spawned tornados until yesterday, when I died to one of them for the first time and was quite surprised indeed. XD

- - - Updated - - -

Since we are sharing personal experiences, I thought I'd share one from this morning which I think is a true example of real toxicity.


Did a +5 Halls of Atonement helping carrying my friend's alternate character. All other players were pugged players including tank, healer, and 3rd damage dealer.


The healer had not done Halls of Atonement once. Not even on normal. They had absolutely no idea of what mechanics to watch out for in trash pulls or boss pulls. He admitted this after the 17th wipe before 2nd boss and after it was made clear through his lack of knowledge of the dungeon. Examples of this include:

- not knowing how to dispell/decurse debuffs off players... not sure if they even saw them, or knew there were things to dispel, but after 50 times of the group telling them to dispel you would think...
- not standing in giant red circle on 1st boss and getting Feared, which he ran into another group and pulled
- not being aware of packs behind fences or a long walls, and just kept moving too far out and face pulling multiple packs
- not knowing to kite the ghost into the pedestal on 3rd boss
- not knowing to avoid the statues on 4th boss


...and these are just some examples. This was the entire dungeon. I spent more time typing out and informing them of what they are doing wrong and how to avoid it. All I was met with back is, "well you all keep fucking dying and making me work harder" and "I know how to tell, you guys keep dying to dumb shit" and things like that. I didn't want him to leave out of anger, even after the other pugs were pointing out what he was doing wrong that was causing deaths (face pulling, not dispelling, etc.) and I finally said: "you can't out heal mistakes that are intended to kill the group. Fix the mistakes *you are* making" to which he just stated he put everybody on ignore.


When we finally killed the boss, even though I was apparently on ignore, I said, "it's not smart nor is it fair to go into a M+ dungeon knowing full and well you have never been here and end ruining it for everybody else" but I guess I wasn't on ignore? He responded and said "hey I did my best" ...and I guess that's a thing.


Doesn't change they knowingly went into a +5 without even doing a normal first, and could not adjust properly. Perhaps they didn't think it would be that bad? Perhaps they honestly though they would just "out heal" or they "out geared" the content? Who knows.


The fact that you willfully go into content and proceed to fail at things that make the group wipe/fail the content is toxic. It's almost on the level of purposely griefing others if you ask me. Refusing to acknowledge your own mistakes while immediately proceeding flaming other people like "stop dying to shit" when the death came from your personal mistakes is even more toxic. It shows not only you don't know what is happening, but you resort to blaming others before even considering your position. That attitude is peak toxicity.


I have a blacklist addon and he was swiftly added. Sucks he was a healer, as this whole thread seems to back-up healers. I have his name if any of you want it, I'll PM it to you.

Not to defend the category, he was of course BAD, but why did you invite him in the beginning?

I mean he couldn’t have had a proper rio of if he had it’s probably because he was carried. I usually look also how many runs did people do in my bracket, people with high rio but few runs are automatically excluded.

[arkanon]

Since we are sharing personal experiences, I thought I'd share one from this morning which I think is a true example of real toxicity.


Did a +5 Halls of Atonement helping carrying my friend's alternate character. All other players were pugged players including tank, healer, and 3rd damage dealer.


The healer had not done Halls of Atonement once. Not even on normal. They had absolutely no idea of what mechanics to watch out for in trash pulls or boss pulls. He admitted this after the 17th wipe before 2nd boss and after it was made clear through his lack of knowledge of the dungeon. Examples of this include:

- not knowing how to dispell/decurse debuffs off players... not sure if they even saw them, or knew there were things to dispel, but after 50 times of the group telling them to dispel you would think...
- not standing in giant red circle on 1st boss and getting Feared, which he ran into another group and pulled
- not being aware of packs behind fences or a long walls, and just kept moving too far out and face pulling multiple packs
- not knowing to kite the ghost into the pedestal on 3rd boss
- not knowing to avoid the statues on 4th boss
.

See this to me is entirely unacceptable. In particular, the 1st and 3rd points - these are not unique to M+, they are "how to play the game" stuff - group content 101. Why that player wouldnt do normal/heroic/+0 before trying a +5 is beyond me, and in my opinion, quite an arrogant thing to do. This sorta shit is absolutely fine if you are running with friends because A) They can guide you through it on discord and B) the wipes are more likely to result in laughter and mocking than frustration and anger.

- - - Updated - - -

Not to defend the category, he was of course BAD, but why did you invite him in the beginning?

I mean he couldn’t have had a proper rio of if he had it’s probably because he was carried. I usually look also how many runs did people do in my bracket, people with high rio but few runs are automatically excluded.

I dont agree with this mindset at all - outside of LFR and normal/heroic dungeons, which in my opinion are intended as a means to learn the content, I think the responsibility lies firmly on the shoulders of those applying.

If you have done a 4, and queue for a 5, thats totally fine, how else would you progress. But queuing for a +5, skipping normal, heroic, Mythic, M+2, +3, and +4 - thats arrogant, and unacceptable.

[chiddie]

See this to me is entirely unacceptable. In particular, the 1st and 3rd points - these are not unique to M+, they are "how to play the game" stuff - group content 101. Why that player wouldnt do normal/heroic/+0 before trying a +5 is beyond me, and in my opinion, quite an arrogant thing to do. This sorta shit is absolutely fine if you are running with friends because A) They can guide you through it on discord and B) the wipes are more likely to result in laughter and mocking than frustration and anger.

- - - Updated - - -



I dont agree with this mindset at all - outside of LFR and normal/heroic dungeons, which in my opinion are intended as a means to learn the content, I think the responsibility lies firmly on the shoulders of those applying.

If you have done a 4, and queue for a 5, thats totally fine, how else would you progress. But queuing for a +5, skipping normal, heroic, Mythic, M+2, +3, and +4 - thats arrogant, and unacceptable.

If you don’t have rio installed, yes, if you have it installed there’s no way someone could get to about 300 rio (all dungeons +4 are roughly 320 points) with less then 10 dungeons done in the below 5 bracket, unless he has been carried.

Also ilvl rewards are so badly tuned that basically you can get to a point where you need to do 7-9 dungeons to get gear upgrades even before setting foot in M+ so it’s not unusual to see applying for 4-6 bracket ppl with zero experience, because doing 1-3 bracket would be a waste of time gear wise.

I’m still in the 7-9 bracket for example with 740 rio because I want to do some more exp before attacking the 10-12 bracket, but I’m 204 ilvl and gear from 7-9 bracket is almost totally useless.

[Nystromia]

All I can say is, if you want toxic M+ players, join Tichondrius and Illidan groups...say no more.

[david0925]

Since we are sharing personal experiences, I thought I'd share one from this morning which I think is a true example of real toxicity.


Did a +5 Halls of Atonement helping carrying my friend's alternate character. All other players were pugged players including tank, healer, and 3rd damage dealer.


The healer had not done Halls of Atonement once. Not even on normal. They had absolutely no idea of what mechanics to watch out for in trash pulls or boss pulls. He admitted this after the 17th wipe before 2nd boss and after it was made clear through his lack of knowledge of the dungeon. Examples of this include:

- not knowing how to dispell/decurse debuffs off players... not sure if they even saw them, or knew there were things to dispel, but after 50 times of the group telling them to dispel you would think...
- not standing in giant red circle on 1st boss and getting Feared, which he ran into another group and pulled
- not being aware of packs behind fences or a long walls, and just kept moving too far out and face pulling multiple packs
- not knowing to kite the ghost into the pedestal on 3rd boss
- not knowing to avoid the statues on 4th boss


...and these are just some examples. This was the entire dungeon. I spent more time typing out and informing them of what they are doing wrong and how to avoid it. All I was met with back is, "well you all keep fucking dying and making me work harder" and "I know how to tell, you guys keep dying to dumb shit" and things like that. I didn't want him to leave out of anger, even after the other pugs were pointing out what he was doing wrong that was causing deaths (face pulling, not dispelling, etc.) and I finally said: "you can't out heal mistakes that are intended to kill the group. Fix the mistakes *you are* making" to which he just stated he put everybody on ignore.


When we finally killed the boss, even though I was apparently on ignore, I said, "it's not smart nor is it fair to go into a M+ dungeon knowing full and well you have never been here and end ruining it for everybody else" but I guess I wasn't on ignore? He responded and said "hey I did my best" ...and I guess that's a thing.


Doesn't change they knowingly went into a +5 without even doing a normal first, and could not adjust properly. Perhaps they didn't think it would be that bad? Perhaps they honestly though they would just "out heal" or they "out geared" the content? Who knows.


The fact that you willfully go into content and proceed to fail at things that make the group wipe/fail the content is toxic. It's almost on the level of purposely griefing others if you ask me. Refusing to acknowledge your own mistakes while immediately proceeding flaming other people like "stop dying to shit" when the death came from your personal mistakes is even more toxic. It shows not only you don't know what is happening, but you resort to blaming others before even considering your position. That attitude is peak toxicity.


I have a blacklist addon and he was swiftly added. Sucks he was a healer, as this whole thread seems to back-up healers. I have his name if any of you want it, I'll PM it to you.

And this is one of those many, many cases where RIO probably would have helped you filtered a little. But we have people going "oh he could have bought it" etc.
Unless a group is specifically labeled as a learning group, I do think going into a dungeon without knowing what you are getting into is irresponsible to the other members.

As far as the general topic goes, toxicity has very little to do with overall abilities and more about attitude. A person can be very good at what he's doing and makes the game unplayable to others, but a person can also be very bad at it and cause the same effect, and people need to really separate toxicity from abilities.

[kattarina]

Sadly there's no good way yet to filter people with arrogant, narcissistic and condescending tendencies. Because I'd rather spend 1 hour on a failed run than waste 1 minute in a group with people like you.

This is my mindset aswell. And, from my experience, these are also ALWAYS the worse guys in the group. Quick to insult and leave and yet struggling to keep with the tanks dps, complaining about "aggroing" fixated mobs, pulling ahead without checking the healers mana or tank's HP. Its always someone elses fault because they don't know enough about mechanics to realise its their own.
Also, being shitty to someone else online acomplishes nothing. Best case scenario they ignore you and nothing changes, except now they will fell shitty. Worse case they talk back and you're typing instead of playing.

[Otimus]

Being awful at a game isn't being toxic. Thinking so shows a distinct lack of understanding of what the word entails in a gaming community. It means a social interaction that is so inherently rude and offensive that it drives you to quit the game.

For the millionth time people really need to be blaming Blizzard for not properly explaining shit to anyone ever. What the fuck do you expect to happen?

[erifwodahs]

Taking the knockback has not that much to do with rio.

It’s a BAD and meaninglessly punishing mechanic imho because if you can’t avoid it it means death 99 on 100 unless you are perfectly in line with the portal so that you will hit it instead. I don’t even know how it make into live and I hope it will be one of the next things that will be heavily nerfed in ToP.

It's massively telegraphed mechanic with plenty of time to react. Getting anything more than a slight chance of survival on it would be lol. Attacks who allow you to prepare for it have to be punishing otherwise what's the point of letting you to avoid it? Boss frontals/beams let you prepare for them too, if you don't you are likely dead or have killed someone else.

Ventunax balls or Stradama tentacles

Tentacles are the same, plenty of time to prepare. I appreciate that as a healer there might be some other distractions, but that is what defines a good healer.
Balls are for the tank to position where they come from and for DPS to push before it gets too much but right positioning and camera angle is the personal responsibility if you want to dodge.

[chiddie]

It's massively telegraphed mechanic with plenty of time to react. Getting anything more than a slight chance of survival on it would be lol. Attacks who allow you to prepare for it have to be punishing otherwise what's the point of letting you to avoid it? Boss frontals/beams let you prepare for them too, if you don't you are likely dead or have killed someone else.



Tentacles are the same, plenty of time to prepare. I appreciate that as a healer there might be some other distractions, but that is what defines a good healer.
Balls are for the tank to position where they come from and for DPS to push before it gets too much but right positioning and camera angle is the personal responsibility if you want to dodge.

Beams and aoe bosses effects are marked: you can see where they will hit before they hit. Pushing winds not. You can see they appeared but you can’t see where they will go. That’s why for me it’s a bad mechanic.

[ellieg]

Being awful at a game isn't being toxic. Thinking so shows a distinct lack of understanding of what the word entails in a gaming community. It means a social interaction that is so inherently rude and offensive that it drives you to quit the game.

For the millionth time people really need to be blaming Blizzard for not properly explaining shit to anyone ever. What the fuck do you expect to happen?

Being awful at the game isn't toxic. Being awful at the game and expecting to be carried through higher keys in pugs is toxic. By the time you are in higher keys, you've gone thru the dungeon on normal, heroic, mythic, 10+ levels of keys. Blizzard does a great job of explaining mechanics by letting u slightly rise in difficulty each time.

Its like lying on your resume to get a job you have no place being in. Then when the business fails, you're like "lol sorry, stop being mean to me"

- - - Updated - - -

Beams and aoe bosses effects are marked: you can see where they will hit before they hit. Pushing winds not. You can see they appeared but you can’t see where they will go. That’s why for me it’s a bad mechanic.

The winds spawn in front of the guy. Look at the 10 foot tall skeleton. See the big black swirling vortex of death in front of him. It only moves directly in front of him. Sidestep so you are no longer directly in front of him.

You CAN see where they will go.