The real toxic people in M+

[Zig Zug]

How so?

Because truth, by its nature is universal.

Experience, and perspective are highly subjective.

For better context - I don't disagree with your assessment, but it was an observation, not the conclusion.

[Specialka]

How does a casual person know someone else is competitive? There is no indication. How does somebody know just by my score that I'm not competitive but don't play 23 hours a day like they may? How do they know the person is willfully bad? Did they ask the person? Or are they making an uneducated assumption based on a number and choosing to be judgmental based upon that? If you're someone doing 15s and I return to the game after a long break and have only reached 8, for example. You'll look at that and assume that I don't want to be the best I can? That doesn't sound like a fair assessment.

Where is this minority that expects to be carried? Is this including the fact that 85% of people who claim they're carrying people are not?

And my last sentence is truth, based on my experience. Our community gets a bad rap. From the comments I see from us, it's no wonder. We're going around kicking the pigs and mad because they're squealing.

Someone with 800 rio applying to a 13 or 15 is willfully bad.

Even someone that returns for a break and want to play the best he can will run the appropriate keys for his skill level and rio. If he has 800 rio, he will try to grind all the 8 then all the 9 keys etc...

[Otimus]

I feel the game prepared you for end game by increasingly difficult content as you're lvling and then gearing up. At least if you care to actually learn from your mistakes.

I don't think it does this at all. Mistakes aren't punished, they're rewarded, and there is no difficulty curve.

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I mean..games in general have an easy mode and wow is no exception... I can play Celeste on Assist mode and FF7 Remake on Classic and make the game a cake walk if I so pleased. Wow is no different and it's not a flaw in game design its catering to a large group of audiences.

There aren't difficulty "modes", the game is just extremely easy, and overly forgiving until you hit the brick wall at the end. The endgame has difficulty modes. The rest of the game is different, vastly different.

[fathom81]

If you google the meaning of toxic it has little to nothing to do with what you describe. It seems you are trying to justify the fact that you might be a toxic players because you cant cope with failure, and end up saying/doing stuff you shouldn't.
Get a premade, promote good attitude towards others, be a decent person!

[Kaver]

There aren't difficulty "modes", the game is just extremely easy, and overly forgiving until you hit the brick wall at the end. The endgame has difficulty modes. The rest of the game is different, vastly different.

I agree. The problem is that every time Blizzard actually make difficult solo content that people can potentially learn from (e.g. Mage Towers and Horrific visions) a lot of players start throwing hissy fits and complain that they are not able to complete it. A lot of people just don't want to get any better. They simply want all content to be trivialized.

[fathom81]

I agree. The problem is that every time Blizzard actually make difficult solo content that people can potentially learn from (e.g. Mage Towers and Horrific visions) a lot of players start throwing hissy fits and complain that they are not able to complete it. A lot of people just don't want to get any better. They simply want all content to be trivialized.

All content is trivialised by gear, the last exception was challenge modes

[Specialka]

If you google the meaning of toxic it has little to nothing to do with what you describe. It seems you are trying to justify the fact that you might be a toxic players because you cant cope with failure, and end up saying/doing stuff you shouldn't.
Get a premade, promote good attitude towards others, be a decent person!

Or do not play in such ways that would incite others to be toxic, in other words, git gud or play with equally bad players.

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All content is trivialised by gear, the last exception was challenge modes

Lots of people whined when the Mage Tower was released because they could not do it in one go.

What about Thorghast ? Still lots of people crying because they can't do it while it has been severely nerfed.

[T-34]

I understand the point of the RIO system. It's to let the community control who does and does not get into your groups by giving them a metric. A flawed metric... but a metric none-the-less

Ahh, here we have another of the arguments often seen used by the wilfully bad - the "I am being gatekept by the evil elitists".
And when you ask the wilfully bad who stops them from making their own groups and invite people like themselves and push their keys high up, because those people who are "gatekept" are of course able to do the most difficult content, then they can never answer why they just don't make their own groups and ignore the "evil elitists".

There is no community, there are players of different skill, experience and attitude. And nobody is neither obliged by Blizzard, and should most certainly not feel morally obliged, to play with anyone that makes their in-game experience insufferable.

[Adhemar]

Someone with 800 rio applying to a 13 or 15 is willfully bad.

Even someone that returns for a break and want to play the best he can will run the appropriate keys for his skill level and rio. If he has 800 rio, he will try to grind all the 8 then all the 9 keys etc...

This is a braindead comment. To get to 800 r.io, you'd have to have already completed all 8 dungeons on a 10 key in time. Or, more likely, you've probably already done some higher keys and just have a few keys pulling your score down.

My alt has timed 14s with a sub-900 r.io score. Another alt has timed 11s with a sub-300 r.io score.

[ellieg]

Ahh, here we have another of the arguments often seen used by the wilfully bad - the "I am being gatekept by the evil elitists".
And when you ask the wilfully bad who stops them from making their own groups and invite people like themselves and push their keys high up, because those people who are "gatekept" are of course able to do the most difficult content, then they can never answer why they just don't make their own groups and ignore the "evil elitists".

There is no community, there are players of different skill, experience and attitude. And nobody is neither obliged by Blizzard, and should most certainly not feel morally obliged, to play with anyone that makes their in-game experience insufferable.

The answer is always make your own group. But they almost never do. If they do, its for a +8 and they invited randoms and it happened to work. Or they tried a few higher keys with no to low rio and no brez or no lust and it didn't work out and now they understand those dirty dirty gatekeepers

[Specialka]

This is a braindead comment. To get to 800 r.io, you'd have to have already completed all 8 dungeons on a 10 key in time. Or, more likely, you've probably already done some higher keys and just have a few keys pulling your score down.

My alt has timed 14s with a sub-900 r.io score. Another alt has timed 11s with a sub-300 r.io score.

Looks like you are smart enough to figure what I meant. I did not check in game if 800 rio was all time at 8 or 10. The point is: get all your keys to 10, after you have done all at 9 then proceed to get them to 11. And do not try to burn the steps if it is your first character to reach that rio.

[Nohara]

Someone with 800 rio applying to a 13 or 15 is willfully bad.

Even someone that returns for a break and want to play the best he can will run the appropriate keys for his skill level and rio. If he has 800 rio, he will try to grind all the 8 then all the 9 keys etc...

Because everyone does all dungeons.. Especially on alts, people tend to skip the long and often frustrating ones. That doesn’t mean they suck if they only have a sub 200 rio score but do complete the same dungeon every week on +14/+15. The score itself doesn’t say dick.

[Adhemar]

Looks like you are smart enough to figure what I meant. I did not check in game if 800 rio was all time at 8 or 10. The point is: get all your keys to 10, after you have done all at 9 then proceed to get them to 11. And do not try to burn the steps if it is your first character to reach that rio.

Still worthless advice. If you spend time grinding out every dungeon to 5 before you do a 6 or a 7, you're really just wasting time. And frankly, some dungeons (Mists, Halls) are far easier than others (SD) with 3 levels of difference, so good luck getting invited to a SD +10 if the best run you've done on any dungeon is a 10.

I led a group to KSM but until I had 1.3k r.io it was nearly impossible to get an invite to 15s on my disc priest (actually a meta class, but not the resto shaman everyone in LFG thinks is meta). Resto shaman 12 item levels lower with 400 r.io got easy invites to 10s, though (and healed them just fine).

There are plenty of bads who think r.io is holding them back when it isn't, but there are just as many of you who think r.io actually matters when it doesn't.

The entire LFG system is cancerous garbage that breeds elitism on one had and laziness on the other and then people are somehow surprised when mixing those elements turns the whole thing into a toxic brew.

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Because everyone does all dungeons.. Especially on alts, people tend to skip the long and often frustrating ones. That doesn’t mean they suck if they only have a sub 200 rio score but do complete the same dungeon every week on +14/+15. The score itself doesn’t say dick.

Indeed. I will probably never do a high SD key on any of my alts. Why bother? I'll farm easy 14s for the 226 vault loot and forget about that worthless over-tuned dungeon.

[Draknalor186]

Toxic is not the same as bad.

People who are demanding to be invited even tho they are bad and expect others to make up for your lack of knowledge and skill is toxic tho.

[T-34]

The entire LFG system is cancerous garbage that breeds elitism on one had and laziness on the other and then people are somehow surprised when mixing those elements turns the whole thing into a toxic brew.

Well, as long as the "elitists" and the "lazy" play separately then all will be fine.
My own anecdotal experience tells me that I have to filter people rigidly in order to find other "elitists"/people that are competitive and give a damn to play with and then I always have nice, efficient and friendly runs.
If I fail in my due diligence and accidentality get in to a group with "lazy"/wilfully bad players then it quite often turns out to be a horrible, toxic run.

So my advice to those that have bad experiences with the LFG-tool is to be even more diligent in your filtering.

[Specialka]

Because everyone does all dungeons.. Especially on alts, people tend to skip the long and often frustrating ones. That doesn’t mean they suck if they only have a sub 200 rio score but do complete the same dungeon every week on +14/+15. The score itself doesn’t say dick.

So you do not use the Rio feature that allows you to show that you have a main with a higher rio score than your alt ?

I think the discussion here is about the main, not the alt one.

[Adhemar]

Well, as long as the "elitists" and the "lazy" play separately then all will be fine.
My own anecdotal experience tells me that I have to filter people rigidly in order to find other "elitists"/people that are competitive and give a damn to play with and then I always have nice, efficient and friendly runs.
If I fail in my due diligence and accidentality get in to a group with "lazy"/wilfully bad players then it quite often turns out to be a horrible, toxic run.

So my advice to those that have bad experiences with the LFG-tool is to be even more diligent in your filtering.

Yeah ... runs stacked with 1.3-1.6k r.io players never turn toxic when someone fucks up (or when someone thinks someone else fucked up, even when they didn't). And elitists with high r.io scores never bail on keys. Sure, buddy.

[Specialka]

Still worthless advice. If you spend time grinding out every dungeon to 5 before you do a 6 or a 7, you're really just wasting time. And frankly, some dungeons (Mists, Halls) are far easier than others (SD) with 3 levels of difference, so good luck getting invited to a SD +10 if the best run you've done on any dungeon is a 10.

I led a group to KSM but until I had 1.3k r.io it was nearly impossible to get an invite to 15s on my disc priest (actually a meta class, but not the resto shaman everyone in LFG thinks is meta). Resto shaman 12 item levels lower with 400 r.io got easy invites to 10s, though (and healed them just fine).

There are plenty of bads who think r.io is holding them back when it isn't, but there are just as many of you who think r.io actually matters when it doesn't.

The entire LFG system is cancerous garbage that breeds elitism on one had and laziness on the other and then people are somehow surprised when mixing those elements turns the whole thing into a toxic brew.

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Indeed. I will probably never do a high SD key on any of my alts. Why bother? I'll farm easy 14s for the 226 vault loot and forget about that worthless over-tuned dungeon.

That what I did and I am at 1450 rio currently without playing too much.

If you do all the 9 before applying to a 10, you raise your chance of getting picked, simple as that.

[Adhemar]

So you do not use the Rio feature that allows you to show that you have a main with a higher rio score than your alt ?

I think the discussion here is about the main, not the alt one.

You have to log in to raider.io and share your profile with them to do that, and many people don't, including myself.

[Specialka]

You have to log in to raider.io and share your profile with them to do that, and many people don't, including myself.

Too bad for you then, but that is on you, not the system or the other players.

I would prefer to invite an alt with 300 rio with a main with 1k + rather than a 800 main rio to a +10 or +12.