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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Tripzzz View Post
    Just because Varian was waiting a long time to declare war doesn't mean Varian didn't care about what had happen to Bolvar though. You are correct the Orcs have nothing to do with Bolvar. That's the point. It's about the forsaken and the wrathgate. Which makes your claim that it's only about the Orcs bogus as hell.
    I've never claimed that Varian didn't care about what happened to Bolvar. The opposite really, that Bolvar's death was the impetus to get him to do what he wanted to do anyway but had restrained himself from, as he states outright in the text. I didn't claim it's entirely about orcs but that it's primarily about orcs and that the text bears it out - the focus and emotional weight Varian puts against Thrall and the orcs is well beyond what Varian does Sylvanas and the undead. Which makes sense when you take into account he doesn't consider them a political actor and was already attacking them prior. Varian needed that shove to act against the orcs, despite all his grievances with them. He needed no such push when it came to the Forsaken.

    To remove his grievances with Thrall and orcs from his call for war when he goes on about green-skinned abominations, given his background both in Orgrimmar and in the first sacking of Stormwind by the Horde to focus on the Forsaken is completely missing the gist of the character. There's a reason Varian and Sylvanas still team up later but Varian is never anything but cold towards Thrall even when they're on the same side - his grievance with one is political, his grievance with another is personal.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-02-13 at 09:53 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I've never claimed that Varian didn't care about what happened to Bolvar. The opposite really, that Bolvar's death was the impetus to get him to do what he wanted to do anyway but had restrained himself from, as he states outright in the text. I didn't claim it's entirely about orcs but that it's primarily about orcs and that the text bears it out - the focus and emotional weight Varian puts against Thrall and the orcs is well beyond what Varian does Sylvanas and the undead. Which makes sense when you take into account he doesn't consider them a political actor and was already attacking them prior. Varian needed that shove to act against the orcs, despite all his grievances with them. He needed no such push when it came to the Forsaken.
    I just find your argument hilarious. Varian was so angry with Thrall and the Orcs, that he decided to attack undercity? Huh? Despite not even knowing Thrall was even there? If he really wanted to focus on the Orcs, why not attack Orgrimmar? Makes no sense. Do you really think Varian wouldn't have declared war if he saw no Orcs?
    Last edited by Tripzzz; 2021-02-13 at 09:56 PM.
    "Father, is it over? I see only darkness before me."

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Tripzzz View Post
    I just find your argument hilarious. Varian was so angry with Thrall and the Orcs, that he decided to attack undercity? Huh? Despite not even knowing Thrall was even there? If he really wanted to focus on the Orcs, why not attack Orgrimmar? Makes no sense. Do you really think Varian wouldn't have declared war if he saw no Orcs?
    You don't need to wonder about it, Varian tells you right out he attacks Undercity while believing Thrall's story so he can retake the city for the Alliance. He is surprised Thrall is there and immediately ditches the tortured bodies he's right next to to instead go after him. He mentions the undead zero times in his attack on Undercity but is very happy to go on about how orcs are the devil.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-02-13 at 10:02 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    You don't need to wonder about it, Varian tells you right out he attacks Undercity while believing Thrall's story so he can retake the city for the Alliance. He is surprised Thrall is there and immediately ditches the tortured bodies he's right next to to instead go after him. He mentions the undead zero times in his attack on Undercity but is very happy to go on about how orcs are the devil.
    So do you think Varian wouldn't have declared war if he didn't see Thrall?
    "Father, is it over? I see only darkness before me."

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Tripzzz View Post
    So do you think Varian wouldn't have declared war if he didn't see Thrall?
    I think Varian didn't feel the need to declare war on the undead because the official policy of Stormwind's church was already to burn undead hearts in ritual pyres and he'd already attacked them in Howling Fjord without the need of a declaration of war.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I think Varian didn't feel the need to declare war on the undead because the official policy of Stormwind's church was already to burn undead hearts in ritual pyres and he'd already attacked them in Howling Fjord without the need of a declaration of war.
    Lol, so Varian didn't need to declare war with the Forsaken because they were basically already at war? You already established Varian wanted to reclaim Lordaeron for the Alliance. Attacking a Horde capital with the intention of conquering it is pretty much already a declaration of war. And he did so without an orc in sight.
    "Father, is it over? I see only darkness before me."

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Tripzzz View Post
    Lol, so Varian didn't need to declare war with the Forsaken because they were basically already at war? You already established Varian wanted to reclaim Lordaeron for the Alliance. Attacking a Horde capital with the intention of conquering it is pretty much already a declaration of war. And he did so without an orc in sight.
    Yes, Varian didn't feel the need to declare war against people he was already attacking and who the state religion had a policy of destroying already. I don't know why you think that's helping your argument. Varian accepted that Thrall wouldn't be in the Undercity and so the Horde's excuses. He attacks this non-Horde city. Yet while thinking there's zero orcs within the city and having met zero orcs up to now, he pivots from the tortured humans he's right next to so he can go on about the evil he's seen in the hearts of orcs. At the time of this:

    King Varian Wrynn says: Look around you, brothers and sisters. Open your eyes! Look at what they have done to our kingdom!
    King Varian Wrynn says: How much longer will we allow these savages free reign in our world?
    King Varian Wrynn says: I have seen the Horde's world. I have been inside their cities. Inside their minds...
    King Varian Wrynn says: I know what evil lies in the hearts of orcs.
    Varian has neither encountered orcs in the city nor has any reason to expect them there. But they still live in his mind rent-free.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Yes, Varian didn't feel the need to declare war against people he was already attacking and who the state religion had a policy of destroying already. I don't know why you think that's helping your argument. Varian accepted that Thrall wouldn't be in the Undercity and so the Horde's excuses. He attacks this non-Horde city. Yet while thinking there's zero orcs within the city and having met zero orcs up to now, he pivots from the tortured humans he's right next to so he can go on about the evil he's seen in the hearts of orcs. At the time of this:



    Varian has seen zero orcs up to this point. But they still live in his mind rent-free.
    Your argument is that he didn't need to declare war on the Forsaken because it was already self evident they were at war through his actions at Howling Fjord and from Stormwind's policies. What's funny to me is how clear hostility towards Horde members(Forsaken) doesn't translate to war against the Horde as a whole. Did the rest of the Horde not care about the Forsaken getting attacked?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Varian has neither encountered orcs in the city nor has any reason to expect them there. But they still live in his mind rent-free.
    This bit is completely wrong.

    King Varian Wrynn says: "Horde. By the looks of the struggle, they are here in force - somewhere."

    He says this before the quotes you provided. Horde = Orcs is a perfectly valid conclusion.
    Last edited by Tripzzz; 2021-02-13 at 10:23 PM.
    "Father, is it over? I see only darkness before me."

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Tripzzz View Post
    Your argument is that he didn't need to declare war on the Forsaken because it was already self evident they were at war through his actions at Howling Fjord and from Stormwind's policies. What's funny to me is how clear hostility towards a Horde members(Forsaken) doesn't translate to war against the Horde as a whole. Did the rest of the Horde no care about the Forsaken getting attacked?
    This really has no relevance on Varian's thoughts on orcs or the war, so I don't really see your point, but yes, my position is that the human-Forsaken conflict was going on separate to anything related to the Kalimdor Horde. I don't see any orc detachments pre-Cataclysm in the entirety of EK except Hammerfall. I can boot up Vanilla and check, but the whole conceit of this situation is that Thrall wasn't bothering to check what Sylvanas was actually up to or what was going on until she came to his throne room crying that the betrayal demon she'd got as her number 2 betrayed her. The Hand of Vengeance and the Warsong Offensive start at opposite sides of the continent and don't intersect until Dragonblight.

    The dude was at best asleep on the wheel when it came to anything in EK and actively sabotaging the orcs in terms of placement and development in Kalimdor, with the exception of the Warsong that he tacitly allowed to skirmish with the night elves so that Durotar didn't run out of lumber.

    This bit is completely wrong.

    King Varian Wrynn says: "Horde. By the looks of the struggle, they are here in force - somewhere."

    He says this before the quotes you provided. Horde = Orcs is a perfectly valid conclusion.
    Fair enough, he has reason to expect orcs are there. They occupy more of his thought process when seeing his people tortured by undead than those undead and he rushes off to go after their leader the second he learns they're there. He spends half a sentence on Sylvanas and the entire rest on Thrall. Draw your own conclusions from there what the guy who lost his home and dad to orcs and was then enslaved by Thrall's advisor in pit fighting cares more about.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-02-13 at 10:31 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post

    Fair enough, he has reason to expect orcs are there. They occupy more of his thought process when seeing his people tortured by undead than those undead and he rushes off to go after their leader the second he learns they're there. He spends half a sentence on Sylvanas and the entire rest on Thrall. Draw your own conclusions from there what the guy who lost his home and dad to orcs and was then enslaved by Thrall's advisor in pit fighting cares more about.
    The fact he even mention Slyvanus shows it's not just about Orcs. I never said or argued which one he cared more for.
    "Father, is it over? I see only darkness before me."

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Tripzzz View Post
    The fact he even mention Slyvanus shows it's not just about Orcs. I never said or argued which one he cared more for.
    That's a good thing then, because that wasn't my point. What I'm getting at is that his primary emotional issue is with orcs and Thrall, for fairly obvious personal reasons and that whether Thrall was there or not, Stormwind would have continued fighting the undead as they were already doing. But his declaration of war vis a vis the Horde was something he'd wanted to do anyway and was chiefly based on his grievances against the orcs. I don't know why we can argue his anti-undead credentials in a quest where he's retaking Lordaeron from the undead only whether that has greater bearing on his choice to wage war on the (Kalimdor) Horde.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    That's a good thing then, because that wasn't my point. What I'm getting at is that his primary emotional issue is with orcs and Thrall, for fairly obvious personal reasons and that whether Thrall was there or not, Stormwind would have continued fighting the undead as they were already doing. But his declaration of war vis a vis the Horde was something he'd wanted to do anyway and was chiefly based on his grievances against the orcs. I don't know why we can argue his anti-undead credentials in a quest where he's retaking Lordaeron from the undead only whether that has greater bearing on his choice to wage war on the (Kalimdor) Horde.
    My problem with your take is that your splitting them up as if they have no relevance to each other. Varian's emotional hatred for the Orcs is probably compounded by the fact the orcs had taken in the undead as allies. Which ultimately resulted in Bolvars death.
    "Father, is it over? I see only darkness before me."

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Tripzzz View Post
    My problem with your take is that your splitting them up as if they have no relevance to each other. Varian's emotional hatred for the Orcs is probably compounded by the fact the orcs had taken in the undead as allies. Which ultimately resulted in Bolvars death.
    The main thing I'm addressing in this thread is the take that Varian acted the way he did because of Thrall's passive permission of Sylvanas' experiments with the Blight that allowed the Wrathgate, so pushing the bulk of Varian's reasoning onto what the Forsaken did rather than his preexisting issues. In reality, Thrall didn't know anything about the Forsaken because he only added them out of realpolitik, but another concession of his - that of gladiatorial slavery to entertain the masses produced Varian. Like I also said in my last reply with Raisei, what I'm illustrating by pushing his comments about Thrall and orcs is that he considered their taking the undead as allies and letting them do what they did as yet another symptom of what was at the core of the orcish character, based on his experiences in the slave pits. A strength of this whole story is that there's plenty of character decisions that were entirely in keeping with who they were that lead to this point.

    tl;dr Varian didn't think Thrall was a negligent accomplice to Sylvanas. To him, based on what he experienced as a child and as a man, the orcs were the perpetrators and Sylvanas the accomplice. Hence Varian never reconciling with Thrall but being able to banter with Sylvanas.
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  14. #194
    Brewmaster Evaddon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Yeah... Bob was evidently aware that the very race that taught magic to humans is unable to pull out even the simplest cantrips when it comes to fighting other wizards. Because MuH human potential or something

    But the thing is that Jaina's murderous rampage at least had actual consequences, since it scuttled the diplomatic talks between Bob and Varian. It is one of the VERY few times (if not the only one) such a thing has happened when it comes to Alliance characters.
    I don't know why you cut out the part where I said "seemingly allied with the Alliance", that's what made any attack on Dalaran dangerous! Silvermoons Magisters and by extension the Sunreavers could've dealt with Dalaran alone but with the Alliance at their side it would've been a declaration of War and Garrosh wouldn't have gave a fuck if the Blood Elves got themselves in trouble he would've sacrificed them and said "this is why we need to end the Alliance"

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post

    tl;dr Varian didn't think Thrall was a negligent accomplice to Sylvanas. To him, based on what he experienced as a child and as a man, the orcs were the perpetrators and Sylvanas the accomplice. Hence Varian never reconciling with Thrall but being able to banter with Sylvanas.
    I agree, he didn't think the Thrall was a negligent accomplice. I don't follow you on the last bit though. When did he banter with her? If you are referring to the Legion cinematic/broken shore, then i would argue against the fact he never reconciled with the orcs/Thrall himself. Varian did let Saurfang retrieve his son's corpse during ICC and let the rebel Horde "off the hook" at the end of SoO. Where Thrall was present and Varian had that speech to horde leaders about "upholding honor" basically forgiving Thrall and the rest since they fought against Garrosh's horde. That's as good a reconciliation as any. He assigns more guilt to the orcs/Thrall soley because they/he held the leadership positions(Warchief) within the Horde that had recruited these undead.
    "Father, is it over? I see only darkness before me."

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by Tripzzz View Post
    I agree, he didn't think the Thrall was a negligent accomplice. I don't follow you on the last bit though. When did he banter with her? If you are referring to the Legion cinematic/broken shore, then i would argue against the fact he never reconciled with the orcs/Thrall himself. Varian did let Saurfang retrieve his son's corpse during ICC and let the rebel Horde "off the hook" at the end of SoO. Where Thrall was present and Varian had that speech to horde leaders about "upholding honor" basically forgiving Thrall and the rest since they fought against Garrosh's horde. That's as good a reconciliation as any. He assigns more guilt to the orcs/Thrall soley because they/he held the leadership positions(Warchief) within the Horde that had recruited these undead.
    I mean the Broken Shore bit yeah, where they're chatting away in casual dialogue. He never gets to that kind of dynamic with Thrall because of the personal animus involved. But your point at the end is completely off-base - Varian does not go on about greenskinned aberrations because the undead were in the Horde he let in - he assigns that blame because every aspect of Varian's personal history and grievances with the Horde come from the orcs. Orcs sacked Stormwind, an orc killed his dad, Thrall's advisor enslaved him and had him fight in an orcish arena for the enjoyment of an orcish crowd. The undead's role only comes in vis a vis Bolvar's death and even then he puts that solely at Thrall's feet as yet another of what is a long line of orcish issues.

    That despite this he recognizes the essential humanity of an orc in Saurfang because he sees him for a father and so lets him pick up Dranosh's body is what makes that a surprising and emotional moment. The remaining two expansions worth of being exposed to critical amounts of Anduin brings him the rest of the way over to letting go of his issues with the orcs in general and Horde in particular, culminating with him deciding to not force a fight at the end of SoO. There is no equivalent arc with the undead - he never has any personal grievance with them, Stormwind remains hostile towards either way and in the few times he interacts with their leader it's amicable.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-02-15 at 10:19 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    Not relevant when the events in question have other lore written concerning them from that time and beyond that never make any mention of any kind of genocide or massacre, only imprisonment... Even when Lorthemar and Jaina and their forces come into confrontation outside the Throne of Thunder no one on either side mentioned any slaughter, only prisoners. If there was really some sort of massacre, someone would have mentioned it during that confrontation, or at some other point down the line, and no one ever does.

    All of the existing lore conforms to the dev's statement of what happened, none of it conforms to yours.
    When we rescued Baine at BFA, we were faced with a sun robber who wants revenge on Jaina for the murders of his friends. Jaina does not deny that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Except none of Jaina's attacks were unprovoked. She only almost wiped out Orgrimmar because she was furious about what Garrosh did to Theramore. And she banished the blood elves from Dalaran because some members of the Sunreavers betrayed Dalaran twice and nothing was done for that, with Aethas even refusing to give up the traitor's name.
    the only sunreaver who betrayed the kirintor was songwave. that he is a traitor wanted by the forces of quelthalas as we see in warcrimes.


    those who stole the bell were the reliquary.

    The developers said that Aethas found Garrosh with the bell and demanded that he return it, but Garrosh threatened to launch an extermination campaign against the Blood Elves.

    in the official page there was a post in which it said that garrosh accused them to ruin the negotiations between lorthemar and Varian.

  18. #198
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Rhlor;53013931]the only sunreaver who betrayed the kirintor was songwave. that he is a traitor wanted by the forces of quelthalas as we see in warcrimes.
    And why was he "wanted by the forces of Quel'thalas"? Consider that both Aethas and Rhonin both vouched for Songweaver, and I doubt Aethas would be completely unaware of what's going on in his homeland.

    those who stole the bell were the reliquary.

    The developers said that Aethas found Garrosh with the bell and demanded that he return it, but Garrosh threatened to launch an extermination campaign against the Blood Elves.

    in the official page there was a post in which it said that garrosh accused them to ruin the negotiations between lorthemar and Varian.
    Yes. But Jaina did not know that at the time. She's not omniscient. For all she knew, this was another instance of the Sunreavers stabbing her in the back.
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  19. #199
    [QUOTE=Ielenia;53014022]
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    the only sunreaver who betrayed the kirintor was songwave. that he is a traitor wanted by the forces of quelthalas as we see in warcrimes.
    And why was he "wanted by the forces of Quel'thalas"? Consider that both Aethas and Rhonin both vouched for Songweaver, and I doubt Aethas would be completely unaware of what's going on in his homeland.


    Yes. But Jaina did not know that at the time. She's not omniscient. For all she knew, this was another instance of the Sunreavers stabbing her in the back.
    songweaver is a garrosh loyalist.

    - - - Updated - - -

    [QUOTE=Ielenia;53014022]
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    the only sunreaver who betrayed the kirintor was songwave. that he is a traitor wanted by the forces of quelthalas as we see in warcrimes.
    And why was he "wanted by the forces of Quel'thalas"? Consider that both Aethas and Rhonin both vouched for Songweaver, and I doubt Aethas would be completely unaware of what's going on in his homeland.


    Yes. But Jaina did not know that at the time. She's not omniscient. For all she knew, this was another instance of the Sunreavers stabbing her in the back.
    songweaver is a garrosh loyalist.

  20. #200
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    I think this is summed up best by the thread title: What Lor'themar should have been done.

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