What Lor'themar should have been done.

[TheFirstOnes]

I would say Anduin is a bit of a limp-wristed pussy when it comes to actually applying diplomatic pressure, but he's not quite terrible at diplomacy. If he were more forceful, he'd be pretty good at what he does. It's all about speaking softly and carrying a big stick - think of FDR, who both pushed for war when necessary but played it cool and carefully until then, not trying to provoke anyone when unnecessary and knowing when to get involved. I think he does seem a lot more assertive now, and it was fun to finally see the golden child get to be a little snarky and irreverent with Sylvanas in Shadowlands as opposed to sitting around acting the hyper-cereal pacifist through all of BFA.

Since I can't see him becoming a warmonger, most likely he'd end up as a pretty good leader by the time he comes back if he's a little more willing to make expedient decisions. Would also make a fun parallel to Varian's story - while Varian had to learn to stop being a hotheaded jackass, Anduin has to learn that peace requires assertiveness.

Eh, you also have to remember that Anduin's still 19. Throughout Classic all the way to BFA, he went from 10 to 18, and SL takes place a year after that. Hard to make a kid like him assertive tbh, especially considering he was never much of a fighter prior to his father's death. The dude has a lot of room to grow, and I'd argue he's become a lot more assertive since Legion. Give this man an expansion or two, and he'll likely end up as the perfect leader of the Alliance.

[mickybrighteyes]

"the bold is the core of my main argument. Devs have spouted off some interesting notions on public forums and or in interviews and those words don't always conform with the story thus far." This makes me wish we got a Chronicle: Part 4 tbh. So that we could know the true version of these events.

it'd be nice but some of these events have other far reaching issues that i don't feel people would really bother taking notice of. For example, Jaina acting as the head of the council and ignoring the council's existence while stripping a council seat was almost ignored for years

[ohwell]

would Varian talk to Jiana on be half of the blood elfs and try and sort things out? of course he would as he was already trying to win them over.

If you expect for him to march into dal and demand there release then that's obviously not gonna happen as it would be a stupid hot headed thing to do and Varian had been moving away from that.


why are we pretending that Jaina Escalated the war? Thereamore was literally nuked there is no further escalation beyond that.

At the time of the bell the blood elf's have little to no support within the horde to the point that there thinking of leaving and joining the faction the horde is at full scale war with. rather Jiana says she was a very big poopy head or not is meaningless when the alterative is making your self a target when you know you have no back up.

Theramore was a staging ground for attacks on Durotar and the Barrens, that wasn't escalation, but rather a strike back against the escalation. That's like saying there's a man murdering people and by arresting him it's escalation and warrants him further murder.

[Mehrunes]

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...avers/c7fbrdo/

There was no massacre... People who, in essence, violently resisted arrest, were the only ones who were killed... Jaina walking around Dalaran killing people at random during the scenario was unintended, and is not canon.

This is a blatant misrepresentation of what Kosak said there. Kosak was explicitly talking about Jaina and the player alone. Which says nothing about Silver Covenant and the reinforcements from Stormwind that constituted the bulk of the purging forces. And it just so happens we outright see the Silver Covenant acting like dirtbags on the Horde side of the questline

[TheFirstOnes]

I'd say this was rather assertive of Anduin tbh. The guy only grew from here.

[ohwell]

I'm not at all defending Jaina's actions. Don't try to twist what I'm saying here. My point is that Lor'themar attacking back would only cause more tensions, and quite possibly a downright war. And, during that time, a full on faction war would NOT have been a needed factor...

- - - Updated - - -

"This isn't just some dude. This is Dave kossak." This is just dumb.

He's also the guy that said Azeroth's Titan was a dude and was dead, and that the titan's remnants resided within the players. He literally apologized to everyone a couple of hours later on his misinformation.

- - - Updated - - -

Being a dev doesn't automatically make you definitive authority, if their own, canonical source material that's not retconned whatsoever contradicts what they claim.

Metzen had done more harm to the lore in his tenure spouting off with lies at Blizzcon etc just so he can look cool. He had severe self esteem issues that he felt this need to try to talk down to people about lore while being completely wrong and people said his statements were canon.

For example he was asked something akin to why the world wasn't destroyed when we killed Yogg and Cthun and he goes "HAVE YOU SEEN THE CATACLYSM" and people kept using that as some sort of connection to their death when LITERALLY in game it's fully explained by the world pillar being broken and having literally nothing to do with either old god or their death.

[Le Conceptuel]

Eh, you also have to remember that Anduin's still 19. Throughout Classic all the way to BFA, he went from 10 to 18, and SL takes place a year after that. Hard to make a kid like him assertive tbh, especially considering he was never much of a fighter prior to his father's death. The dude has a lot of room to grow, and I'd argue he's become a lot more assertive since Legion. Give this man an expansion or two, and he'll likely end up as the perfect leader of the Alliance.

It's an unfortunate flaw with monarchy - if it were operating under sensible politics, Turalyon probably would try to extend military authority over him at some point, or the merchants and priests would probably start putting pressure on him to try to apply a constitutional monarchy.

In honesty, I think that would be a pretty good way of accelerating his character development. Maybe he could realize that he isn't fully well-rounded as a leader, and try to institute early democratization or extend military powers to allow him to focus on diplomacy and management with competent advisors. He definitely seems reasonable enough to understand the importance of competent advisors and cooperation with his own government.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Because Jaina usurped control of the council of dalaran, broke their neutrality, and forced the capture and killing of her own citizens to demonstrate her loyalty to the alliance.

Oh and she did all this with no investigation beyond tracking the movements of one artifact rather than confirm who was all involved.

edit:

purge of dalaran storyline brought open war to Dalaran by order of Jaina Proudmoore.

Jaina didn't usurp any thing she was made a member/leader of the council by Dal it self she didn't just storm in and take its place.

she also didn't bring Dalaran into the horde/alliance war Dal is active of the island of thunder to help stop the thunderking but that's it they don't start fielding troops or any thing until garrosh goes nuts.

as to the capture/killing of sun reavers that had nothing to do with any demonstration of loyalty to the alliance.

[Le Conceptuel]

Jaina didn't usurp any thing she was made a member/leader of the council by Dal it self she didn't just storm in and take its place.

she also didn't bring Dalaran into the horde/alliance war Dal is active of the island of thunder to help stop the thunderking but that's it they don't start fielding troops or any thing until garrosh goes nuts.

as to the capture/killing of sun reavers that had nothing to do with any demonstration of loyalty to the alliance.

It was actually Rhonin that appointed her directly, I believe.

[mickybrighteyes]

It's an unfortunate flaw with monarchy - if it were operating under sensible politics, Turalyon probably would try to extend military authority over him at some point, or the merchants and priests would probably start putting pressure on him to try to apply a constitutional monarchy.

In honesty, I think that would be a pretty good way of accelerating his character development. Maybe he could realize that he isn't fully well-rounded as a leader, and try to institute early democratization or extend military powers to allow him to focus on diplomacy and management with competent advisors. He definitely seems reasonable enough to understand the importance of competent advisors and cooperation with his own government.

honestly, someone should have tried usurping control at some point given how Anduin wasn't getting showcased as a more competent/strong leader. I would have picked Genn or Rogers as the instigators if I had to use the existing cast. Human centered people who've been wronged by the opposing faction and still carried dislike for some reason... But genn seems to have resolved his hate with a few side conversations and Rogers hasn't been seen since Stormheim.

[Le Conceptuel]

honestly, someone should have tried usurping control at some point given how Anduin wasn't getting showcased as a more competent/strong leader. I would have picked Genn or Rogers as the instigators if I had to use the existing cast. Human centered people who've been wronged by the opposing faction and still carried dislike for some reason... But genn seems to have resolved his hate with a few side conversations and Rogers hasn't been seen since Stormheim.

I wouldn't say "usurped". I think putting political pressure on him would be best. It would allow him to make some tougher decisions on his end rather than react endlessly - he could showcase his competence through that while also diversifying the leadership of the Alliance.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Theramore was a staging ground for attacks on Durotar and the Barrens, that wasn't escalation, but rather a strike back against the escalation. That's like saying there's a man murdering people and by arresting him it's escalation and warrants him further murder.

Do you not know what escalation means? Nuking whole city's is bigger then any other act of war during cata rather it was a valid target or not (it was) doesn't mean that destroying it wasn't an escalation of the war.

[mickybrighteyes]

Jaina didn't usurp any thing she was made a member/leader of the council by Dal it self she didn't just storm in and take its place.

She was on the council and maybhave been leading it. That did not give her the authority to lock down the city, mobilize a military force on it AND strip/remove another council member WITHOUT consulting the rest of the council.

she also didn't bring Dalaran into the horde/alliance war Dal is active of the island of thunder to help stop the thunderking but that's it they don't start fielding troops or any thing until garrosh goes nuts.

I think the blood shed caused by letting the SC go to town on the Sun reavers... and the resultant blood shed is the "open war" that was brought to Dalaran.

as to the capture/killing of sun reavers that had nothing to do with any demonstration of loyalty to the alliance.

And yet that was how she purged Daralan for the alliance.

- - - Updated - - -

I wouldn't say "usurped". I think putting political pressure on him would be best. It would allow him to make some tougher decisions on his end rather than react endlessly - he could showcase his competence through that while also diversifying the leadership of the Alliance.

I'd say usurped because I'd want Anduin removed for a time so he could have a proper hero's journey similar to Varian's where he comes to understand how a ruler should act and return later.

- - - Updated - - -

It was actually Rhonin that appointed her directly, I believe.

Rhonin appointed her, but her position was still as a council member, even as she was it's head. That doesn't mean she could utterly ignore the council to her own ends.

[VladlTutushkin]

i love how alliance soldiers killing shopkeepers (a.k.a. unarmed civilians) in their own shops and feeding sunreavers to sharks was retconed to "harassing"...
Jaina led ethnic purge instead of trying to find out who is actualy guilty, retconing that is slap in the face of lore fans... but nothing unusual, everything alliance does is forgoten or retconed or justified with some weak ass apology...

even though i would hate if they made redemption arc for Sylvanas, i would sooo love to see all alliance apologist and hypocrites trying to figure out how to twist reality so they can still be mad at something that was done for greater good...

Yeah, stay mad about that...

[Mehrunes]

I'm not at all defending Jaina's actions. Don't try to twist what I'm saying here. My point is that Lor'themar attacking back would only cause more tensions, and quite possibly a downright war. And, during that time, a full on faction war would NOT have been a needed factor...

...the factions were already at full-scale war by that time. Lor'themar attacking Jaina back wouldn't have changed anything in this regard.

would Varian talk to Jiana on be half of the blood elfs and try and sort things out? of course he would as he was already trying to win them over.

Given the fact that Stormwind forces aided Jaina in the purge (which the Horde knew about as you kill them in the Horde questline), why would Varian bother with such a futile endeavor? The moment he aided her he lost any good-will Blood Elves may have had towards him.

why are we pretending that Jaina Escalated the war? Thereamore was literally nuked there is no further escalation beyond that.

Except Horde nuking Theramore was a response to Jaina escalating the war, with Jaina's forces from Northwatch breaking the post-WotLK ceasefire when they attacked the Barrens.

At the time of the bell the blood elf's have little to no support within the horde to the point that there thinking of leaving and joining the faction the horde is at full scale war with. rather Jiana says she was a very big poopy head or not is meaningless when the alterative is making your self a target when you know you have no back up.

They still had the Forsaken. Even though Lor'themar was giving Sylvanas the cold shoulder at the time, she wouldn't just let the Alliance gain a massive foothold on the very continent she spent 4.0 kicking the Alliance out of. And given how for the most part she sat out the war after that, it's not like she was too busy to do so. Besides, even if it was just Blood Elves alone, the Alliance was stretched thin because Varian was an inexperienced idiot. Now, given his idiocy he likely would have sent forces to Quel'Thalas anyway, but it's not like it'd be some existential threat for the Blood Elves.

[Le Conceptuel]

- - - Updated - - -



I'd say usurped because I'd want Anduin removed for a time so he could have a proper hero's journey similar to Varian's where he comes to understand how a ruler should act and return later.

- - - Updated - - -



Rhonin appointed her, but her position was still as a council member, even as she was it's head. That doesn't mean she could utterly ignore the council to her own ends.

I do have trouble recalling much of the plot of that expansion - it would depend on if she had a valid justification for the crackdown according to the council. Did they vote on it?

As for the usurpation, it probably wouldn't do much to improve Anduin's rulership skills. A leader isn't just supposed to act in a certain way, but also supposed to have certain skills. What Anduin seems to be maturing into is someone who knows how to speak softly and carry a big stick, which would be accelerated by the extension of military powers or pressure from the House of Nobles if they want to instate a constitution to Stormwind. Playing politics is a quick way to teach someone how the game works and how to not fuck up.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

She was on the council and maybhave been leading it. That did not give her the authority to lock down the city, mobilize a military force on it AND strip/remove another council member WITHOUT consulting the rest of the council.

An abuse of power sure but it's not usurping the council they could have very well have ousted her right after if they wanted to.

I

think the blood shed caused by letting the SC go to town on the Sun reavers... and the resultant blood shed is the "open war" that was brought to Dalaran.

ya, no. that's not even close to open war.

And yet that was how she purged Daralan for the alliance.

She really didn't as the alliance not only had no idea what she was doing but didn't support it when they found out. She purged Dalaran for her self and the kirin tor.

[Mehrunes]

Jaina didn't usurp any thing she was made a member/leader of the council by Dal it self she didn't just storm in and take its place.

she also didn't bring Dalaran into the horde/alliance war Dal is active of the island of thunder to help stop the thunderking but that's it they don't start fielding troops or any thing until garrosh goes nuts.

as to the capture/killing of sun reavers that had nothing to do with any demonstration of loyalty to the alliance.

She cleansed Horde forces in Dalaran... With her being the one to point out that Sunreavers are still Horde members in her chat with Anduin. Saying that she didn't bring Dalaran into the faction war makes no sense. Especially since she didn't just target Lei Shen's forces on the Isle of Thunder, but the Horde as well. Then there's the part where she actively aided Darnassus against the Horde even before the Purge. Also, by Jaina's own account the whole thing is what she assumed Varian wanted and she delivered him the news of the Purge together with the news that Dalaran now belongs to the Alliance.

[Le Conceptuel]

Rommath and all true sin'dorei should work to overthrow his regime and give the blood elves something better.

Rommath is also far more cautious and pragmatic than Lor'Themar. Most likely, a Rommath regime would result in more entrenchment and less intervention during things like the Siege of Dalaran. He's a very political person.

[Mehrunes]

It was actually Rhonin that appointed her directly, I believe.

Rhonin was already disenchanted by that time. The Kirin Tor made Jaina their leader after Rhonin's death because Kalec found some prophecy of Krasus and they decided it described Jaina.