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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Zuben View Post
    For whatever reason both Horde and Alliance forgot they have gnomish/goblin bomb arsenal at their disposal and acted like the manabomb was unique in its destructiveness. Which is silly of Blizzard considering the power of conventional explosives wasn't theoretical, but demonstrated in Cataclysm.
    It is unique though. Regular explosives are nothing compared to a nuke. And garrosh did not wait. He did not make a formal declaration of war. He just ordered a zeppelin over and dropped a nuke. This one attack was the most extreme use of weaponry of the entire war, something you usually to at the end of a war.

    It's like Pearl Harbor, but with nukes.

  2. #122
    Legendary! Zuben's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    It is unique though. Regular explosives are nothing compared to a nuke. And garrosh did not wait. He did not make a formal declaration of war. He just ordered a zeppelin over and dropped a nuke. This one attack was the most extreme use of weaponry of the entire war, something you usually to at the end of a war.

    It's like Pearl Harbor, but with nukes.
    Theramore wasn't Pearl Harbor because the war had been ongoing for quite some time; you can see it all over Cata-revamped Kalimdor, especially Southern Barrens, Stonetalon Mountains and Ashenvale.

    The bomb used in Stonetalon Mountains on a druidic town completely obliterated it like a miniature nuke. Theramore was certainly bigger than such a town, but that means you just increase the payload. Considering the hoops they had to jump to get their hands on the focusing iris I would think using what they already had would've been easier. Or at least used elsewhere.
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  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Zuben View Post
    Theramore wasn't Pearl Harbor because the war had been ongoing for quite some time; you can see it all over Cata-revamped Kalimdor, especially Southern Barrens, Stonetalon Mountains and Ashenvale.
    Maybe that's just my memory failing me, because we worked with Thrall the entire expansion. Could have sworn Horde and Alliance had a Truce at the end of Cata.

    The bomb used in Stonetalon Mountains on a druidic town completely obliterated it like a miniature nuke. Theramore was certainly bigger than such a town, but that means you just increase the payload. Considering the hoops they had to jump to get their hands on the focusing iris I would think using what they already had would've been easier. Or at least used elsewhere.
    That's the crux though: You can't just increase the load of a zeppelin. For the same devastation one mana bomb could achive, you would have needed thousands of zeppelins to drop those bombs, which would make a stealth mission like this impossible. And even that might not have been enough, since there is a limit to the destructability of conventional explosives, even if you use more.
    Last edited by LordVargK; 2021-02-09 at 12:46 PM.

  4. #124
    Legendary! Zuben's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    Maybe that's just my memory failing me, because we worked with Thrall the entire expansion. Could have sworn Horde and Alliance had a Truce at the end of Cata.
    Thrall was working with both sides from the start of Cataclysm, while Garrosh-led Horde most definitely was at war with the Alliance. And if there was a truce to focus on Deathwing a bit, it's by no means the same as armistice. War was put on hold to deal with a big angry dragon and his cronies. Once dealt with there's still an enemy stronghold and troops next to your lands. The troops stationed in Barrens and Ashenvale probably didn't go anywhere, just ordered to stay still for a bit. Garrosh certainly wanted the war to continue, but be that as it may Theramore was still a legit military target they used a new effective weapon on for massive damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    That's the crux though: You can't just increase the load of a zeppelin. For the same devastation one mana bomb could achive, you would have needed thousands of zeppelins to drop those bombs, which would make a stealth mission like this impossible. And even that might not have been enough, since there is a limit to the destructability of conventional explosives, even if you use more.
    I think a few zeps of conventional payloads would do the trick rather than a thousand, but for the sake of argument lets surmise conventional explosives don't cut it. Then that refutes Daemos's point I replied to. More towns weren't blown up because Horde only had the one manabomb, used for maximum effectiveness.
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  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Zuben View Post
    Thrall was working with both sides from the start of Cataclysm, while Garrosh-led Horde most definitely was at war with the Alliance. And if there was a truce to focus on Deathwing a bit, it's by no means the same as armistice. War was put on hold to deal with a big angry dragon and his cronies. Once dealt with there's still an enemy stronghold and troops next to your lands. The troops stationed in Barrens and Ashenvale probably didn't go anywhere, just ordered to stay still for a bit. Garrosh certainly wanted the war to continue, but be that as it may Theramore was still a legit military target they used a new effective weapon on for massive damage.
    Yeah, maybe that last part wasn't portrayed in the game very well. It was working together against DW and then bam, manabomb on Theramore. While it might made sense in the lore, in the players perception it comes off as more drastic, because we were not used to the faction war anymore, since most of it took part in the leveling zones, that you ignored as a full level character. No patch of Cataclysm focussed on the faction war, 4.1 even had troll emissaries arrive at SW.

  6. #126
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    Lorthemar shouldn't have been wishy-washy, always trying to have his cake and eat it too.
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  7. #127
    The Kirin Tor is neutral instead of helping everyone. They allow for the Alliance and the Horde to have an independent presence in the city, kinda like extended embassies. Try going into an embassy in your own country without having a prior engagement. It's exactly the same.

    This comment is just an indication of how little you know about politics, sovereignty, and think that you know everything based on knowing a little. That's the basis of the Dunning Kruger effect. You're too incompetent on the subject to know how incompetent you are on it.

  8. #128
    Legendary! Zuben's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordVargK View Post
    Yeah, maybe that last part wasn't portrayed in the game very well. It was working together against DW and then bam, manabomb on Theramore. While it might made sense in the lore, in the players perception it comes off as more drastic, because we were not used to the faction war anymore, since most of it took part in the leveling zones, that you ignored as a full level character. No patch of Cataclysm focussed on the faction war, 4.1 even had troll emissaries arrive at SW.
    Remember that those emissaries were sent by Vol'jin, who recognized a threat Garrosh didn't. He was getting fed up with Garrosh even at the beginning stages of Cataclysm as witnessed in Echo Isles. At the entrance to Zul'Aman where Halduron and Vereesa had gathered to take on the Amani menace Lor'themar sent a messenger to give them shit for co-operating without sanction from the top, which they promptly ignored.

    As for high lvl war, Vash'jir, Twilight Highlands and Tol Barad had Horde and Alliance at each others' throats (disregarding the Gnome genocide quest in Uldum) among other stuff. Patch content not so much, it largely focused on our common enemies at the time. The leveling zones took place at the same time, post-Wrath, so we lore-geeks were definitely in on the war. I never read Tides of War, but that book probably went into the timeline leading to Theramore's bombing in more detail.

    In any case it was clear Deathwing took center stage for us champions and the war was more behind the scenes until it became the prime focus in MoP. As much as I didn't care about Twilight's Hammer and monkrobe-Thrall I think it was better paced that way than how BFA handled it. N'Zoth felt like Sylvanas's distraction. Had they made the Blood War more behind the scenes like in Cataclysm we'd have gotten a proper send-off for the last Old God.
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  9. #129
    The Insane Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zuben View Post
    For whatever reason both Horde and Alliance forgot they have gnomish/goblin bomb arsenal at their disposal and acted like the manabomb was unique in its destructiveness. Which is silly of Blizzard considering the power of conventional explosives wasn't theoretical, but demonstrated in Cataclysm.

    Be that as it may, something had to be done about Theramore, because it well and truly was a stronghold pouring enemy troops and gear into Horde's lands. Garrosh's plan was to wait for enemy troops and generals to rally into the city, then take them all out with one blow. While biding their time civilians were allowed to evacuate*, rendering the city ripe for military action.

    *Though they were captured on the sea and sent to Orgrimmar to be abused. That was some of the darkest imagery in WoW imo.

    The mana Bomb was absolutely unique in its destructiveness that’s the whole reason they stole the focus iris from the blue dragons not only was it way more powerful then any thing before it but has things like portal dampeners in it.

    But ya I agree something would have to be done about theramore fielding troops but wiping such a large population centre off the map is still far larger of a move then any thing else that took place in the classic-mop war Mabye, only topped by sylvanas burning the tree.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by KOUNTERPARTS View Post
    Also wasn't that massacre retaliation for something?
    Yes, for aiding a known mass murder and warcriminal in aquiring a new weapon of mass destruction after he used the last one to flatten a city.

    But I wouldn't expect Gazrug to acknowledge this detail. His threads follow a pretty simple and very common structure on this forum. Basically when he says he wants "Justice" what he means is the complete annihilation of the Alliance for the heinous crime of not just killing themselves when the Orcs set foot on Azeroth and letting them have the planet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grazrug View Post
    During MoP the Sunreavers got killed and jailed by an angry Jaina. What Lor'themar should have been doing is to gather an attack force and free the Sunreavers out of their situation. That would have shown him to be a great leader. Instead he appeased the alliance and did nothing to aid his people. Which makes him to be an awful leader. Rommath and all true sin'dorei should work to overthrow his regime and give the blood elves something better. Someone who doesn't work in alliance's interests first and the ones of his people last. Down with Lor'themar and his injust government!
    It boils down to: "I want the Horde to be all warmongers. Someone that does not immediatedly seek bloody vengeance for something done to the Horde is not a good leader."

    I mean by this point I do expect you to be willfully blind to all circumstances that led to what happened in Dalaran and explaining it is just pointless. You will never accept that the Horde followed a madman and helping him in any way was wrong just as it was wrong to support the omnicidal zombie last expansion.

    Would just add the point that not even the Legion could not breach Dalaran's defenses or were beaten back, what chance do you see Lor'themar and some Blood Elves having?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Perhaps he is a better leader than you think. Perhaps he was aware of certain things like what I just mentioned above. Perhaps he is also aware that this entire thing happened because Jaina, the currently leader of the Kirin Tor, was betrayed twice by Sunreaver blood elves. First during the siege of Theramore, and then by using Dalaran to steal the Divine Bell out of Darnassus.
    Actually it is 3 times. The third happens during the Mage Class Quests in Legion, but Khadgar makes you shut up about it.

  11. #131
    Legendary! Zuben's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    The mana Bomb was absolutely unique in its destructiveness that’s the whole reason they stole the focus iris from the blue dragons not only was it way more powerful then any thing before it but has things like portal dampeners in it.

    But ya I agree something would have to be done about theramore fielding troops but wiping such a large population centre off the map is still far larger of a move then any thing else that took place in the classic-mop war Mabye, only topped by sylvanas burning the tree.
    They could've tried sieging it with some sort of portal dampeners to prevent the defenders from getting supplies, but it would've taken a lot of time and resources from the Horde during a world-wide war. With this one event they removed it from the map and restored Southern Barrens to complete Horde control. We can debate its ethics till the end of time, but there's very little to be commended about war in general. Since only buildings and enemy forces were destroyed I can appreciate how effective and beneficial this was for Horde's war effort. Had they not kidnapped the civilians for later abuse I would even call it clean. True Horde was really messed up.
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  12. #132
    I can't imagine the salt if Jaina did drown Orgrimmar and went on a killing rampage like the other timeline Jaina.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    I can't imagine the salt if Jaina did drown Orgrimmar and went on a killing rampage like the other timeline Jaina.
    If you want an ocean of salt raze thunderbluff or Silvermoon.

  14. #134
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grazrug View Post
    The Sunreavers did nothing. It was a Garrosh loyalist who put the portal to Dalaran. Stop lying.
    Have to add in on this banned account's comment - the loyalist was a Sunreaver.
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  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    If you want an ocean of salt raze thunderbluff or Silvermoon.
    More than salt orcs or forsaken? I doubt it?

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    More than salt orcs or forsaken? I doubt it?
    Some of the greatest outrage to this day is the purge of Dalaran and Taurajo, orcs and forsaken being butchered does not genaerally get the same amount of outrage.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Some of the greatest outrage to this day is the purge of Dalaran and Taurajo, orcs and forsaken being butchered does not genaerally get the same amount of outrage.
    That's because Taurajo is one of the few things to happen to the Horde by the Alliance that's played for pathos. Dalaran is because 90% of the Horde is blood elves. In terms of story damage, end of TBC is worse for blood elves, all of Mists is an extended orc massacre that's only gone on since then and I'm pretty sure my posts about Forsaken could fill a full length novel at this point.

    On-topic: Bob got more upset about Garrosh sending people into a dangerous area than about Jaina feeding them to sharks. He also sent you on the quest where you help her kill Sunreavers to free Baine, which is probably the most tone deaf bit of Horde writing in BFA short of the Derek business and that's saying something.
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  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    That's because Taurajo is one of the few things to happen to the Horde by the Alliance that's played for pathos. Dalaran is because 90% of the Horde is blood elves. In terms of story damage, end of TBC is worse for blood elves, all of Mists is an extended orc massacre that's only gone on since then and I'm pretty sure my posts about Forsaken could fill a full length novel at this point.
    Yes but the general guy/gal is more concerned with the pretty ones and the gentle giants, while the orcs/forsaken do get covered by some, simply not to the same degree, unless you bring in what shall not be named. I mean just look at the number of pages this has gotten, despite having been discussed to death and beyond.

  19. #139
    Oh it's this thread again.

    "Horde should kill every last Alliance!" foaming at the mouth, ignoring that CANNOT happen.
    "Blue statements aren't canon because sometimes they make mistakes!" justifying headcanon.
    "There was no evidence against the Sunreavers" completely ignoring the entire questline that says there was. I'm not going to go through and provide WoWhead links and quotes again, too much trouble when people are blatantly dishonest.

    Alliance punches Horde. Hordies demand extermination and smoking craters.
    Horde massacres Alliance. Alliance fans only want equal hits, or at least some consequences. Instead, those fans get lectures about being better.

    The whole situation is absurd.
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    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
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  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post

    Alliance punches Horde. Hordies demand extermination and smoking craters.
    Horde massacres Alliance. Alliance fans only want equal hits, or at least some consequences. Instead, those fans get lectures about being better.

    The whole situation is absurd.
    Horde and Alliance supporters are basically the same, I have seen enough Alliance posters demanding the extermination of the Horde and vice versa.

    This situation isn't absurd it is normal and has existed for ages and will continue to do so.

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