What Lor'themar should have been done.

[Dire]

This sounds likes some racist stuff right here

No, Lor is not responsible for what those bloodelves did and shouldn't ignore diplomatic options because of it.

[Ielenia]

songweaver is a garrosh loyalist.

So what? When was it revealed that he was a Garrosh loyalist, to the point of shirking the responsibilities of his own group, the Sunreavers, for Garrosh? Again, I'll remind you that Aethas personally vouched for Songweaver, and I doubt Aethas would be ignorant to Songweaver's true loyalties if they were public before the events at Theramore.

[Darth-Piekus]

I see that we are still using that bad excuse that it was just one Sunreaver when the Legion Mage Class Questline pretty much confirmed that it was in fact way more than one not to mention Aethas finally taking responsibility over that and of course there is that questline that it was cut showing Aethas finding the perpetrators but chose not to stop them as he should.

[Soon-TM]

I see that we are still using that bad excuse that it was just one Sunreaver when the Legion Mage Class Questline pretty much confirmed that it was in fact way more than one not to mention Aethas finally taking responsibility over that and of course there is that questline that it was cut showing Aethas finding the perpetrators but chose not to stop them as he should.

Wow, won't you look at that, yet another retcon that whitewashes Alliance's funky stuff. Colour me surprised.

[Rhlor]

So what? When was it revealed that he was a Garrosh loyalist, to the point of shirking the responsibilities of his own group, the Sunreavers, for Garrosh? Again, I'll remind you that Aethas personally vouched for Songweaver, and I doubt Aethas would be ignorant to Songweaver's true loyalties if they were public before the events at Theramore.

he was a garrosh loyalist within the sunreavers, he betrayed the sunreavers. he hated lorthermar and helped garrosh escape. obviously aethas didn't know he was a traitor, that's why they are called traitors.

[Schattenlied]

When we rescued Baine at BFA, we were faced with a sun robber who wants revenge on Jaina for the murders of his friends. Jaina does not deny that.

Some people died, that was never in question, the question is how many. Given that the head of the lore department said there was no massacre, and only the people that violently resisted arrest were killed, one should assume that the "sun robber"'s friends were violently not complying when guards showed up to arrest or evict them, because that fits the established lore.

[Darth-Piekus]

Wow, won't you look at that, yet another retcon that whitewashes Alliance's funky stuff. Colour me surprised.

It's not really a retcon. The quest despite being cut was there. There were various hints also that lead to that. All Blizzard did was complete that uncomplete story.

[Tripzzz]

I mean the Broken Shore bit yeah, where they're chatting away in casual dialogue. He never gets to that kind of dynamic with Thrall because of the personal animus involved. But your point at the end is completely off-base - Varian does not go on about greenskinned aberrations because the undead were in the Horde he let in - he assigns that blame because every aspect of Varian's personal history and grievances with the Horde come from the orcs. Orcs sacked Stormwind, an orc killed his dad, Thrall's advisor enslaved him and had him fight in an orcish arena for the enjoyment of an orcish crowd. The undead's role only comes in vis a vis Bolvar's death and even then he puts that solely at Thrall's feet as yet another of what is a long line of orcish issues.

The last bit is specifically aimed toward the wrathgate. Should have worded it better. Varian going on about orcs being "green aberrations" doesn't mean he assigns no guilt towards the actions of the Forsaken(traitors as they were) during the wrathgate towards the Horde itself. Hence why Varian cites the wrathgate and mentions clear distinction between Putress and the Horde itself but still uses it as justification for not working with the Horde in the Ulduar cinematic, and not simply saying "because orcs...."

[Ielenia]

he was a garrosh loyalist within the sunreavers, he betrayed the sunreavers. he hated lorthermar and helped garrosh escape. obviously aethas didn't know he was a traitor, that's why they are called traitors.

It seems to me that you're not seeing this through Jaina's eyes.

Jaina had her entire home obliterated by a mana bomb. One of her closest friends literally turned into arcane dust right before her eyes. And she was still grieving when, as far as she knew, the Sunreavers "struck again" by stealing the Divine Bell.

[Ardenaso]

to be fair there's a reason why Songweaver doesn't have the courage to even face his fellow Blood Elves to this point

[Super Dickmann]

The last bit is specifically aimed toward the wrathgate. Should have worded it better. Varian going on about orcs being "green aberrations" doesn't mean he assigns no guilt towards the actions of the Forsaken(traitors as they were) during the wrathgate towards the Horde itself. Hence why Varian cites the wrathgate and mentions clear distinction between Putress and the Horde itself but still uses it as justification for not working with the Horde in the Ulduar cinematic, and not simply saying "because orcs...."

I think we're talking past each other since I agree with your take here, but also don't think it's in any way exclusive to what I said. I'm not saying Varian's some kind of undead apologist or didn't blame Putress or that a big part of his issue with Thrall in that moment was that he'd just lost Bolvar who was important to him thanks to the undead Thrall cut loose. Rather that the bulk of his emotional issues and backdrops with the orcs and Thrall in general exist outside of that moment and it's the combination of the Wrathgate and those issues that make this a major turning point. This is when he engages the wider Horde in war. His actions towards the undead on the other hand are the same before and since.

[StationaryHawk]

Yes. But Jaina did not know that at the time. She's not omniscient. For all she knew, this was another instance of the Sunreavers stabbing her in the back.

This is where someone in Jaina's position would be expected to investigate the incident, instead of jumping to conclusions and attacking the residents of her city.

It seems to me that you're not seeing this through Jaina's eyes.

Jaina had her entire home obliterated by a mana bomb. One of her closest friends literally turned into arcane dust right before her eyes. And she was still grieving when, as far as she knew, the Sunreavers "struck again" by stealing the Divine Bell.

And this is where the Council of Six should have reconsidered allowing someone with Jaina's history to lead their "neutral" faction.

[bullseyed]

When was the Sunreavers of the Kirin Tor "his people"? Sure they were from the same race, however, they had splintered from the greater BE race even though they betrayed their pledge of neutrality by aiding the Horde.

If Lor'themar has moved he would just have piled on. At the time the Horde had yet to formally declare war and by him moving he would. Politics, you're simply acting too much on emotion to fathom it.

I find it interesting that you're advocating for "might is right," which is essentially Fascism as it's ruling by the violent suppression of anyone that opposes you whether externally or internally.

In WoW you have two sides... one ruled by a king that seeks to exterminate lesser races. The other is a collective of said lesser races, fighting for survival, and ideally beat back the first faction enough that they don't have to fight for survival anymore.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

In WoW you have two sides... one ruled by a king that seeks to exterminate lesser races. The other is a collective of said lesser races, fighting for survival, and ideally beat back the first faction enough that they don't have to fight for survival anymore.

That’s about as accurate as saying one side are monsters trying to purge the world of all that’s good and the noble defenders of said good trying to stop them.

Neither faction are that one Dimensional.

[MikeBogina]

It seems to me that you're not seeing this through Jaina's eyes.

Jaina had her entire home obliterated by a mana bomb. One of her closest friends literally turned into arcane dust right before her eyes. And she was still grieving when, as far as she knew, the Sunreavers "struck again" by stealing the Divine Bell.

Jaina's not a goldfish right? Her memory can go further back before the bombing of Theramore where she aided the Alliance in it's invasion of Horde lands and used her own city as the Alliance's main base of operations right? Maybe she can also remember getting Dalaran involved in defending it against the Horde which caused them some casualties aswell, resulting in them pulling their support immediately.

Maybe she does have a Goldfish's memory because she then used Dalaran assets to help the Alliance and Darnassus with the Bell, which resulted in a single Sunreaver(who secretly worked for Garrosh) help the Horde by using a portal to Darnassus and nothing more. Which then resulted in the Purge of Dalaran.

[Quaade]

In WoW you have two sides... one ruled by a king that seeks to exterminate lesser races. The other is a collective of said lesser races, fighting for survival, and ideally beat back the first faction enough that they don't have to fight for survival anymore.

No, you have two factions that the players can join. There are multiple factions in the game that players can gain reputation with to improve their standing, some of them the players can improve their standing with regardless of which of the two major factions they belong to.

[MikeBogina]

No, you have two factions that the players can join.

Not to make it extreme like bullseyed did, but you have 2 factions but 3 choices.
1. Horde, you're playing a fantasy game, be a cool race
2. Alliance, you're playing a fantasy game... be a human
3. Alliance, you're playing a fantasy game, be a cool race but still understand you're inferior to humans and lick their boots, and their king is always the leader

I hear there's a 4th choice on it's way, you can be a horde race and still lick human boots and have their king be your leader

[Soon-TM]

I hear there's a 4th choice on it's way, you can be a horde race and still lick human boots and have their king be your leader

That's currently the only option available for us Hordies. Even Forsaken players are getting Anduin's BFF shoved down their throats because undeath is just a skin condition after all

[MikeBogina]

That's currently the only option available for us Hordies. Even Forsaken players are getting Anduin's BFF shoved down their throats because undeath is just a skin condition after all

World of Warcraft: Human and Friends

I said it for years, how BFA was going to end was that Anduin would be the Golden God King and he'd have some kind of fellowship of horde and Alliance races at his side. It's one thing for Alliance to accept that the human will always be center stage but as a horde player I can't accept it.

it''s gonna be something like this, but with Anduin in the center T^T

[Quaade]

Not to make it extreme like bullseyed did, but you have 2 factions but 3 choices.
1. Horde, you're playing a fantasy game, be a cool race
2. Alliance, you're playing a fantasy game... be a human
3. Alliance, you're playing a fantasy game, be a cool race but still understand you're inferior to humans and lick their boots, and their king is always the leader

I hear there's a 4th choice on it's way, you can be a horde race and still lick human boots and have their king be your leader

I know this is intended to be humour and it just shows how incredibly biased you are. A person can only make fun of what they think is okay to be made fun of.