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  1. #181
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    Would you use the kind of example if you were representing the man in court?

    Maybe we should just agree to agree that it was a bad example and leave it at that.




    It is though. You are saying if they had been nicer...they wouldn't have gotten shot.



    Antagonism on both sides.



    And that is victim blaming. That's literally what it means. You aren't arguing that it isn't victim blaming. You are arguing that you feel blaming the victims is justified in this case...but it's still victim blaming. Whatever provocations they may have provided...they didn't put the gun in the shooter's hands.



    We have already established the concept of "re-escalation".
    It's not victim blaming - I'm not going to keep having this same conversation with people. This is a violent escalation where both sides were at fault.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    Again, you aren't making a case that this you aren't victim blaming. The case you are making is that you feel you are justified in doing so.
    It's not victim blaming. Please stop using this phrase incorrectly.

  2. #182
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    "Hey, she came up to me and was super flirty, and even touched my chest. That totally makes the violent ass-raping to death totally her fault, right, because she instigated?"

    That's not a fucking argument, dude. Unless they went and armed themselves with lethal weaponry first, there was no "instigation" that would justify shooting them.
    Different set of circumstances. A woman isn’t asking for it either by the way she is dressed or acts.

    This was a neighbor with prolonged exposure who was insulted threatened and specifically engaged for a confrontation.

    Sorry dude but you’re comparison isn’t going to work.

    This wasn’t a one and done in my opinion the man and his wife who were shot obviously had a serious habit with causing drama.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    Not to the point where lethal force was justified.

    They didn't put the gun in his hand.
    Of course not. But the law isn’t going to protect you from life and in this case it doesn’t matter now right. 3 people are dead over one guys need to start shit and another’s reaction to end it.
    #ANTIFA "Intellect alone is useless in a fight...you can't even break a rule, how can you be expected to break bone" Khan Singh

  3. #183
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Don't downplay the couple's behavior. They were horrific, both on the video and according to witnesses. And they started the violence first, don't forget.
    I'm not downplaying it, I'm saying that how horrific they may have been is basically irrelevant. If they were violent (I watched the video and didn't notice it, but it didn't seem to catch the whole thing and wasn't tracking it and was pretty crappy resolution; I'm not disputing it I just have no frame of reference), then if they'd gotten into a slap-fight or whatever I'd say hit 'em all with disturbing the peace or something.

    But we're talking about the shooting.

    Doesn't matter how horrific they were, they didn't provoke the shooting. That's entirely the shooter's disturbed mind and penchant for murderous violence.

    Actually, that's first degree murder.
    Depends on where you draw the line of premeditation and how long you need to plan it; I was assuming it might've still only fit as second because it's still "heat of the moment", but thinking again going back into your house to get a weapon probably does cross that line.

    IANAL, and I try not to leap to claims of first-degree murder unless it's literally "here's my complex weeks-long plot to kill a guy" clear.

    The couple was violent first, though - does that change your answer at all?
    Again, I don't have a frame of reference on exactly what their level of violence was. Assuming it was just slappy-smacks or similar belligerent brawling, then no. It doesn't change my answer one bit. I frankly do not see why it should. It could provide an excuse to respond in kind, but that's not what happened.

    If this were a story about two neighbours who'd been duking it out fist-to-fist in the street, I'd say they both were to blame. That answer changes when one party bogs off and grabs a gun.

    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    This isn't the same thing. People need to stop equating this to victim blaming in rape cases.
    I'm not sure how it's meaningfully different. Is it that the victim in a rape case didn't commit a lesser crime? So would it be okay to blame a female burglar for being raped by the homeowner when he catches her in the act? Because fuck that, man.

    I get that rape is an emotional kneejerk, but that's sort of the point. If you can clearly see why victim-blaming is horrible in a case of rape, why can't you see that victim-blaming in a case of murder is just as horrible?

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    It's not victim blaming. Please stop using this phrase incorrectly.
    It's the literal definition of the term.

    You are assigning blame to the victims for the crime perpetrated against them.

    Just because you feel you are justified in doing so doesn't change that it is exactly what you are doing.
    Last edited by Evil Midnight Bomber; 2021-02-09 at 03:28 AM.
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  5. #185
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Amadeus View Post
    Different set of circumstances. A woman isn’t asking for it either by the way she is dressed or acts.
    And the two victims here weren't asking to be killed.

    Sure seems comparable.

    This was a neighbor with prolonged exposure who was insulted threatened and specifically engaged for a confrontation.
    "No, man, you don't understand, she'd been flirting with me for months. Of course I had to rape her!"

    Not an argument.

    Sorry dude but you’re comparison isn’t going to work.
    I'm getting a lot of complaints that it's a bad comparison, and not a single explanation as to why other than it makes you question your position.

    Which is kind of the point.

  6. #186
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    It's the literal definition of the term.

    You are assigning blame to the victims for the crime perpetuated against them.

    Just because you feel you are justified in doing so doesn't change that it is exactly what you are doing.
    It's not victim blaming. You keep using that term incorrectly. You want it to be because it fits what you need it to be.

    It's been explained several times in this thread. Victim blaming, as an example, is when a woman who is raped is "blamed" for how she dressed or flirted. That is not this situation. AT ALL.

    Here we have two sides who both used violence that went too far (obviously too far) with dire results. Entirely different.

  7. #187
    The Forgettable Forgettable's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    You didn’t have a point. Being angry doesn’t make someone temporarily insane.
    Wrong. A wise man said this long ago.

    https://psychology-spot.com/anger-temporary-madness/

  8. #188
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    "Hey, she came up to me and was super flirty, and even touched my chest. That totally makes the violent ass-raping to death totally her fault, right, because she instigated?"

    That's not a fucking argument, dude. Unless they went and armed themselves with lethal weaponry first, there was no "instigation" that would justify shooting them.

    Wrong and you happily gleam right past your over stated point that doesn’t apply here right into justification.

    Again I never said he’s justified I’m just not going to take your selected route they were innocent. That also doesn’t mean they should have been killed.

    The guy shoveling the snow instigated this shit. You don’t give a fuck you don’t have to. But you aren’t him neither am I. I don’t know the situation I’m only giving my opinion.

    My opinion is this wasn’t just over snow this was about an asshole neighbor looking to start shit and like so many felt the law and obligating others would keep him safe he was wrong.

    Don’t get me wrong you can go right along not giving a fuck and telling me what the law is and how you feel it should be handled.

    I’m staying with this and many situations like it could be avoided not by kissing someone’s ass but by being decent and not fucking with people because you feel you can.

    But fuck it let’s ignore those social undertakings. I’m sure you waving your finger is going to bring anyone back and it sure as hell isn’t an attitude that serves anyone better.
    #ANTIFA "Intellect alone is useless in a fight...you can't even break a rule, how can you be expected to break bone" Khan Singh

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    It's not victim blaming. You keep using that term incorrectly. You want it to be because it fits what you need it to be.
    Define the term then. You keep on accusing people of using the term incorrectly but you aren't providing a definition.

    It's been explained several times in this thread. Victim blaming, as an example, is when a woman who is raped is "blamed" for how she dressed or flirted. That is not this situation. AT ALL.
    Victim blaming is when you blame the victim of a crime for the actions of the person who committed the crime. The only difference between this and the rape example is you feel that blaming the victim is justified in this case.

    Here we have two sides who both used violence that went too far (obviously too far) with dire results. Entirely different.
    By your own admission, you didn't even know about the initial violence (which still does not justify the use of lethal force) until recently...yet you formed your opinion long before that.

    And we've already established the concept of re-escalation.
    Last edited by Evil Midnight Bomber; 2021-02-09 at 03:36 AM.
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  10. #190
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I'm not downplaying it, I'm saying that how horrific they may have been is basically irrelevant. If they were violent (I watched the video and didn't notice it, but it didn't seem to catch the whole thing and wasn't tracking it and was pretty crappy resolution; I'm not disputing it I just have no frame of reference), then if they'd gotten into a slap-fight or whatever I'd say hit 'em all with disturbing the peace or something.

    But we're talking about the shooting.
    You can't just take the shooting entirely out of context. The details matter and what led up to the shooting matters as well.

    Depends on where you draw the line of premeditation and how long you need to plan it; I was assuming it might've still only fit as second because it's still "heat of the moment", but thinking again going back into your house to get a weapon probably does cross that line.

    IANAL, and I try not to leap to claims of first-degree murder unless it's literally "here's my complex weeks-long plot to kill a guy" clear.
    The going back to get another gun makes it premeditated, hence the first degree.

    Again, I don't have a frame of reference on exactly what their level of violence was. Assuming it was just slappy-smacks or similar belligerent brawling, then no. It doesn't change my answer one bit. I frankly do not see why it should. It could provide an excuse to respond in kind, but that's not what happened.

    If this were a story about two neighbours who'd been duking it out fist-to-fist in the street, I'd say they both were to blame. That answer changes when one party bogs off and grabs a gun.
    The couple acted violent first, and the guy had a gun on him, and eventually shot both. Then went back for another gun. Shout out here - with bold please - if I'm getting the point regarding the shooter already being armed wrong, please. I want that to be clear in this conversation, if that makes sense.

    I'm not sure how it's meaningfully different. Is it that the victim in a rape case didn't commit a lesser crime? So would it be okay to blame a female burglar for being raped by the homeowner when he catches her in the act? Because fuck that, man.
    I get that rape is an emotional kneejerk, but that's sort of the point. If you can clearly see why victim-blaming is horrible in a case of rape, why can't you see that victim-blaming in a case of murder is just as horrible
    This isn't rape. Making analogies to it is entirely wrong, on several levels. Use a bar fight example or something else.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    Define the term then. You keep on accusing people of using the term incorrectly but you aren't providing a definition.

    Victim blaming is when you blame the victim of a crime for the actions of the person who committed the crime.

    By your own admission, you didn't even know about the initial violence (which still does not justify the use of lethal force) until recently...yet you formed your opinion long before that.

    And we've already established the concept of re-escalation.
    We can keep going back and forth - doesn't matter. To be blunt, you're entirely wrong. Victim blaming doesn't come into play here. Period.

    This was a violent situation that escalated on both sides, from a long standing and highly antagonistic feud. Everyone involved is to at blame.

  11. #191
    Pandaren Monk Sugarcube's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post

    We can keep going back and forth - doesn't matter. To be blunt, you're entirely wrong. Victim blaming doesn't come into play here. Period.

    This was a violent situation that escalated on both sides, from a long standing and highly antagonistic feud. Everyone involved is to at blame.
    don't you have laws in the us that penalize people for doing this to their neighbours? the shovelling snow onto their driveway stuff...

  12. #192
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    And the two victims here weren't asking to be killed.

    Sure seems comparable.



    "No, man, you don't understand, she'd been flirting with me for months. Of course I had to rape her!"

    Not an argument.



    I'm getting a lot of complaints that it's a bad comparison, and not a single explanation as to why other than it makes you question your position.

    Which is kind of the point.
    Oh but it is an argument. See because this isn’t a court of law and the stupidity in question left all parties fucking dead.

    I really don’t want to hear your excuse for the shit comparison between this and fucking rape. Because they aren’t at all similar.

    It’s not even a good moral argument which at this point you’re empty.

    People don’t instigate rape and there is no behavior proven to provoke it. Other than one person wants sex and the other doesn’t.


    The victim here instigated the fight period.
    #ANTIFA "Intellect alone is useless in a fight...you can't even break a rule, how can you be expected to break bone" Khan Singh

  13. #193
    Pandaren Monk Sugarcube's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Amadeus View Post
    Oh but it is an argument. See because this isn’t a court of law and the stupidity in question left all parties fucking dead.

    I really don’t want to hear your excuse for the shit comparison between this and fucking rape. Because they aren’t at all similar.

    It’s not even a good moral argument which at this point you’re empty.

    People don’t instigate rape and there is no behavior proven to provoke it. Other than one person wants sex and the other doesn’t.


    The victim here instigated the fight period.
    lol... rape isn't about sex...

  14. #194
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    don't you have laws in the us that penalize people for doing this to their neighbours? the shovelling snow onto their driveway stuff...
    Not sure on this one - maybe harassment? I don't know.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Y
    We can keep going back and forth - doesn't matter. To be blunt, you're entirely wrong. Victim blaming doesn't come into play here. Period.

    This was a violent situation that escalated on both sides, from a long standing and highly antagonistic feud.
    You are blaming the victims of a crime for the actions of them man that committed that crime.

    You haven't established that it isn't Victim Blaming.

    All you have established is that you feel you are justified in blaming the victim.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    We're gonna Godwin so much you might even get tired of Godwinning

  16. #196
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    lol... rape isn't about sex...
    Interesting statement - because you're entirely right. Which is the exact reason the violence of the shooting situation is NOT victim blaming. In a rape case, the rapist was always going to rape, regardless of anything the victim did or didn't do. Which is why blaming the victim in a rape case is victim blaming.

    But in this shooting case, both side were at fault for the escalating behavior.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    You are blaming the victims of a crime for the actions of them man that committed that crime.

    You haven't established that it isn't Victim Blaming.

    All you have established is that you feel you are justified in blaming the victim.
    Ok, let's try a different tact, because we're getting nowhere with yes/no.

    Did the couple do anything at all before being shot? Yes.
    Did they escalate the situation? Yes.

    Those actions are separate from victim blaming. They contributed to the violence. They were partially at fault for creating the situation.

    Think of a bar fight. Did the loser in the fight have no blame?
    Last edited by cubby; 2021-02-09 at 03:46 AM.

  17. #197
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    don't you have laws in the us that penalize people for doing this to their neighbours? the shovelling snow onto their driveway stuff...
    There are millions of things this moron could have done instead of taking two peoples lives including his own.

    I think Cubby is insane with man love for Elon Musk but I don’t think Cubby is suggesting or justifying this lunatics committing murder.

    As to more specific it depends on the city where he lives the ordinances and ultimately proof.

    That can be hard to get and even harder to prosecute. I mean it’s snow which is an act of GOD.

    I think the issue and problem here is the overall frustration that boiled over into this horrific incident.
    #ANTIFA "Intellect alone is useless in a fight...you can't even break a rule, how can you be expected to break bone" Khan Singh

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    You are blaming the victims of a crime for the actions of them man that committed that crime.

    You haven't established that it isn't Victim Blaming.

    All you have established is that you feel you are justified in blaming the victim.
    I don't think he ever said that they are at fault for getting shot. I'm fairly certain 0% of the posts in here say that.

    They are rightfully being blamed for initiating a fight with their neighbor. The fight ended with their deaths. These are the facts of the situation.

  19. #199
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sugarcube View Post
    lol... rape isn't about sex...
    Technically you are correct it’s about power. I didn’t mean to articulate any position otherwise here.
    #ANTIFA "Intellect alone is useless in a fight...you can't even break a rule, how can you be expected to break bone" Khan Singh

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post


    Ok, let's try a different tact.

    Did the couple do nothing at all before being shot?
    I've never claimed they didn't do anything. They were probably very horrible people.

    But nothing they did put a gun in the hands of their murderer. Doing that is on him and no one else.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    I don't think he ever said that they are at fault for getting shot. I'm fairly certain 0% of the posts in here say that.

    They are rightfully being blamed for initiating a fight with their neighbor. The fight ended with their deaths. These are the facts of the situation.
    So, what you are saying is that, in your opinion and in his, they are RIGHTFULLY being Victim Blamed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    We're gonna Godwin so much you might even get tired of Godwinning

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