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  1. #201
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    I've never claimed they didn't do anything. They were probably very horrible people.

    But nothing they did put a gun in the hands of their murderer. Doing that is on him and no one else.
    Bah - I added more in an edit. Sorry.

    The shooting is of course entirely on him. But the situation was contributed to by both. That's why this isn't victim blaming. Those actions are separate from victim blaming. They contributed to the violence. They were partially at fault for creating the situation.

    Think of a bar fight. Did the loser in the fight have no blame?

  2. #202
    Void Lord Doctor Amadeus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    I've never claimed they didn't do anything. They were probably very horrible people.

    But nothing they did put a gun in the hands of their murderer. Doing that is on him and no one else.
    Ah that’s a gray area they did threaten him though. The threat of violence was there 2 vs 1.

    If there wasn’t video I’m sure if the shooter lived that could be argued.
    #ANTIFA "Intellect alone is useless in a fight...you can't even break a rule, how can you be expected to break bone" Khan Singh

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    So, what you are saying is that, in your opinion and in his, they are RIGHTFULLY being Victim Blamed.
    The victims are being blamed for what they did, according to the facts at hand. It is not an opinion.

    This is not Victim Blaming.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Bah - I added more in an edit. Sorry.

    The shooting is of course entirely on him. But the situation was contributed to by both. That's why this isn't victim blaming. Those actions are separate from victim blaming. They contributed to the violence. They were partially at fault for creating the situation.

    Think of a bar fight. Did the loser in the fight have no blame?
    You should have stopped with the bold.

    They did not put the gun in his hands.

    If I win the bar fight and then the guy shoots me in the parking lot afterwards...am i responsible?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    The victims are being blamed for what they did, according to the facts at hand. It is not an opinion.

    This is not Victim Blaming.
    That's literally Victim Blaming.

    You just believe that the facts at hand warrant it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
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  5. #205
    I think some are under the assumption that you can only be a victim-blamer if you assign FULL blame to the victims, or that the belief is that they deserved what they got. I don't think anyone believes the scale of the response was justified, nor that the dead neighbors deserve all of the blame. I think most of us are in agreement there. The part where I disagree is the assessment that they should assume ANY part of responsibility for what happened. Their actions at best warrant a verbal "fuck you" or throwing a shovel-full of snow back on their cars, or something similarly minor. If they received that much I'd say, yeah definitely had it coming. Crossing a line where you repeatedly shoot people goes well beyond any threshold of reasonable response. You don't get to say "well, that person deserved a 'fuck you' so in a small way they deserved bullets." No. Not even a little bit.

    Also, if he threw a tool at the other guy, dick move. Though it's weird it's being used as some sort of "he escalated violence" defense, since the guy REMOVED HIMSELF from the situation... he was safe at that point. Let alone use that as an reason to kill the woman too. I dunno, This whole thing kinda reminds me of a real-life satire of that Looney Tunes scene where Elmer Fudd comes at Bugs Bunny with an axe, so Bugs chases Elmer with a gun, resulting in Elmer chasing Bugs with a cannon, resulting in Bugs chasing Elmer with a tank. Only this time it was snow - > snow scraper -> gun -> rifle.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    That's literally Victim Blaming.

    You just believe that the facts at hand warrant it.
    No. Victim Blaming would be saying they caused themselves to get killed. That is not what's being said. What's being said is that they started the fight that ended with their deaths.

    I believe the facts warrant them being blamed for starting the fight because that's what the facts state, both video evidence and neighbor testimony. Of course - more facts may arise. But currently, that is the narrative.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    If I win the bar fight and then the guy shoots me in the parking lot afterwards...am i responsible?
    Depends on who started the fight. If you started it, then yes.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    No. Victim Blaming would be saying they caused themselves to get killed. That is not what's being said. What's being said is that they started the fight that ended with their deaths.

    I believe the facts warrant them being blamed for starting the fight because that's what the facts state, both video evidence and neighbor testimony.
    Again, all you are saying is that you believe the victims deserve to be blamed. But you are putting the blame of one person's actions on the people victimized by those actions. They did not put a gun in his hands.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
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  9. #209
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    You should have stopped with the bold.

    They did not put the gun in his hands.

    If I win the bar fight and then the guy shoots me in the parking lot afterwards...am i responsible?
    But the loser of the bar fight who gets shot isn't blameless. That's my point. The resulting shooting isn't justified, which is why he would go to jail for the shooting. But the loser of the fight isn't blameless.

    "Victim blaming" isn't a term to be used in every situation. It's for cases like rape. Where the victim is always blameless.

    Edit: also recall that the shooting happened during the bar fight too - the shooter in our case shot the couple, then went back to get another gun.
    Last edited by cubby; 2021-02-09 at 04:16 AM.

  10. #210
    I am not saying that I agree with anything that happened in this video, first of all.

    BUT, if you've ever grown up in a city or town with blatant racism, or any of the sort, you know not to start shit that you can't end. And if you take offense to that statement, you obviously didn't grow up in one of those towns. Once again, I don't agree with ANY of the acts in the video. But, this doesn't mean you can't show someone respect, no matter what you think of them, or the situation. Even if you "HATE" someone, a little sincerity can go a long way.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    But the loser of the bar fight who gets shot isn't blameless. That's my point. The resulting shooting isn't justified, which is why he would go to jail for the shooting. But the loser of the fight isn't blameless.
    The loser of the bar fight isn't blameless for getting involved in a bar fight. But that's where his blame ends.

    He is not to be blamed for the other party going back out to his truck, grabbing a gun, and shooting him dead.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post

    Edit: also recall that the shooting happened during the bar fight too - the shooter in our case shot the couple, then went back to get another gun.
    It wasn't a "bar fight" when he shot them. It was people yelling at each other from across the street.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
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  12. #212
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    The loser of the bar fight isn't blameless for getting involved in a bar fight. But that's where his blame ends.
    He is not to be blamed for the other party going back out to his truck, grabbing a gun, and shooting him dead.[/QUOTE]

    Exactly. That's what I've been trying to bring across here - sorry I hadn't done a better job. And this isn't an "I'm right you're wrong" my point (even though I said that earlier, my apologies for that). This is a "we both understand each other's perspectives better" situation.

    I definitely see where you're coming from - that the couple isn't at all to blame for getting shot - they aren't. Nothing justifies the guy shooting them, even if he hadn't gone back for a second gun (man that still bothers me on so many levels - did he finish them off having already decided to kill himself?). But at the same time, they are responsible for the escalation of the situation. I know I'm drawing a very fine distinction here.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    It wasn't a "bar fight" when he shot them. It was people yelling at each other from across the street.
    The couple acted in violence first, keep that in mind.

    Also, I'm using the "bar fight" as an analogy for the verbal escalation. If that makes any sense.

  13. #213
    Pandaren Monk Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    Victim blaming is when you blame the victim of a crime for the actions of the person who committed the crime. The only difference between this and the rape example is you feel that blaming the victim is justified in this case.
    So, for clarity, Victim Blaming is more than just noting actions that a victim took which may have helped precipitate the event, and typically requires an intentional devaluing of the act. From my understanding, it can be in some ways compared with gaslighting that occurs in abusive relationships, where an individual has situations of abuse against them re-contextualized as being different than they actually were, actively detracting from the perpetrator's actions with the intent of shifting the emphasis onto the victim's. In this circumstance, for Victim Blaming to occur, it would likely have to be a situation where someone is putting the full blame on the couple (such as painting the perpetrator as being the victim), which doesn't seem to be what's occurring; however, I've not been in the thread to see how the argument has developed over the last 8~ pages.. Regardless, I've linked a source from the CRCVC (Canadian Resource Center for Victims of Crime). Below is an excerpt of a document outlining what Victim Blaming. I've selected a few sections that are relevant to the discussion, and would suggest that everyone (looking at you @cubby) takes a little while to look at the document:

    Quote Originally Posted by CRCVC, Victim Blaming
    What is Victim Blaming?
    Victim blaming is a devaluing act that occurs when the victim(s) of a crime or an accident is held responsible — in whole or in part — for the crimes that have been
    committed against them
    . This blame can appear in the form of negative social responses from legal, medical, and mental health professionals, as well as from the media and immediate family members and other acquaintances.

    ...

    Why Do People Blame Victims?
    There are a number of reasons why people choose to blame victims for the crimes that have happened to them. These reasons stem from misconceptions about victims, perpetrators, and the nature of violent acts. Victims are sometimes wrongfully portrayed as passive individuals who seek out and submit to the violence they endure. Offenders are seen as hapless individuals who are compelled to act violently by forces they cannot control. The most popular reasons for blaming victims include belief in a just world, attribution error, and invulnerability theory:

    ...

    Attribution Error:
    Attribution error occurs when individuals overemphasize personal characteristics and devalue environmental characteristics when judging others, resulting in victim blaming. People who make this error view the individual victim as partially responsible for what happened to them and ignore situational causes. So-called “internal failings” take precedent over situational contributors in judgement of the subject. On the contrary, these people may have the propensity to attribute their own failures to environmental attributes, and their own successes to personal attributes.

    ...

    Violent Crimes in which Victims are Blamed

    ...

    Homicide
    ...
    Further, victims of homicide are often undervalued because of the apparent or real blame that is attributed to them. Friends and family may question the victim’s lifestyle, wondering how they knew the murderer. They might make comments, such as “he was in the wrong place at the wrong time,” when this is simply not true. Questioning the innocence of the victim is very hurtful to surviving family members.
    - Source
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    H

    The couple acted in violence first, keep that in mind.
    The "act of violence" was a thrown snow scraper. And that allegedly happened before the video starts. We've already gone over the concept of "re-escalation" several times now. And you had already made up your mind about blame long before you even knew about the snow scraper. That's someone using new evidence to retroactively justify a conclusion he had already made.

    Also, I'm using the "bar fight" as an analogy for the verbal escalation. If that makes any sense.
    Again, it's just a bad example. Yelling obscenities to each other across a street doesn't equate with two guys throwing hands. And two guys throwing hands doesn't make the winner responsible for getting shot by the loser after the fight is over.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
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  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I see the first few posts in the thread there are saying that it's such a dumb thing and this is why you shouldn't aggravate people.

    And that's horse shit.
    I think you're misunderstanding those first (at least the very first one I read) posts about "this is why you don't." Yes, it's horseshit. However, that's reality. People are insane and what will ultimately cause someone to go ham and go for murder is unknown. Should people have absolutely nothing to fear from other humans, especially when it's something petty and dumb? Yes. Do I fucking trust that enough to constantly bicker with people I don't know or do what these people did? HELL. No. That's a fucking idiot's position to rely and expect people to be civil/not crazy/whatever.

    It's not these people giving the man a pass for his actions. It's people acknowledging the reality that humans are dangerous and capable of doing extraordinarily dumb, harmful, petty shit.

  16. #216
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    So, for clarity, Victim Blaming is more than just noting actions that a victim took which may have helped precipitate the event, and typically requires an intentional devaluing of the act. From my understanding, it can be in some ways compared with gaslighting that occurs in abusive relationships, where an individual has situations of abuse against them re-contextualized as being different than they actually were, actively detracting from the perpetrator's actions with the intent of shifting the emphasis onto the victim's. In this circumstance, for Victim Blaming to occur, it would likely have to be a situation where someone is putting the full blame on the couple (such as painting the perpetrator as being the victim), which doesn't seem to be what's occurring; however, I've not been in the thread to see how the argument has developed over the last 8~ pages.. Regardless, I've linked a source from the CRCVC (Canadian Resource Center for Victims of Crime). Below is an excerpt of a document outlining what Victim Blaming. I've selected a few sections that are relevant to the discussion, and would suggest that everyone (looking at you @cubby) takes a little while to look at the document:


    - Source
    I really appreciate what you're saying here - especially a little metaphorical break from the back and forth. I'm reading the document covering violent crimes, and I'm more confident than ever we are not victim blaming. I'm not questioning the couple's lifestyle choices. I'm not questioning any choices the couple made outside the actual encounter.

    Again - nothing justified the shooting, but the couple escalated the confrontation, the escalation, and the violence. At every turn they turned up the volume, so to speak.

    The document source is great, too - thank you for that. In most cases victim blaming deals with racial issues. The most obvious is something like a white person shooting a black person, and then everyone questioning the black person's lifestyle/choices/location/etc. That along with rape are where most victim blaming situations arise.

    This was a bar fight that got dramatically out of hand. I don't know if the people involved are rich/poor/black/white - and in this case it's irrelevant.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    The "act of violence" was a thrown snow scraper. And that allegedly happened before the video starts. We've already gone over the concept of "re-escalation" several times now. And you had already made up your mind about blame long before you even knew about the snow scraper. That's someone using new evidence to retroactively justify a conclusion he had already made.
    We haven't even remotely covered re-escalation in our conversations - and we won't be doing it. I've tried my best to explain this to you, even reached across for common ground. But that apparently isn't good enough. We can stop here with an agree to disagree.

    (except)

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    Again, it's just a bad example. Yelling obscenities to each other across a street doesn't equate with two guys throwing hands. And two guys throwing hands doesn't make the winner responsible for getting shot by the loser after the fight is over.
    It's actually a perfect example. You just don't like it because it ruins your whole narrative.

    Victim blaming isn't happening here. A violent incident went too far, and both parties were involved in the violence and the escalation. Period.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    I really appreciate what you're saying here - especially a little metaphorical break from the back and forth. I'm reading the document covering violent crimes, and I'm more confident than ever we are not victim blaming. I'm not questioning the couple's lifestyle choices. I'm not questioning any choices the couple made outside the actual encounter.
    You have been doing just that. You've referenced the "antagonistic history" many times.

    Again - nothing justified the shooting, but the couple escalated the confrontation, the escalation, and the violence. At every turn they turned up the volume, so to speak.
    Nothing justified the shooting. Just stop there. Anything you say after that point is Victim Blaming. You've just been arguing that it's okay to blame the victims.

    This was a bar fight that got dramatically out of hand. I don't know if the people involved are rich/poor/black/white - and in this case it's irrelevant.
    No, it wasn't.

    It was people yelling at each other from across the street...with apparently a snow scraper being thrown at some point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
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  18. #218
    Shit happens when you push a guy. Keep pushing, and he goes over the edge.

  19. #219
    The Undying cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Shit happens when you push a guy. Keep pushing, and he goes over the edge.
    Exactly. The pushee is at fault, but the pusher takes some of the responsibility.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post

    It's actually a perfect example. You just don't like it because it ruins your whole narrative.
    It's actually a shitty example. You just need it to be good because your argument hinges on it.

    A bar fight is two guys in an equal level of involvement. Even if you lose you can expect to get out of the fight alive.

    This was not an equal level of involvement.

    One guy called the other guy a pussy. The other guy pulled out a gun and shot him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    We're gonna Godwin so much you might even get tired of Godwinning

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