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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Exactly. The pushee is at fault, but the pusher takes some of the responsibility.
    *nods
    Not going get any further here.
    Sone people have tunnel vision and can't see anything but what they want.

    Three people dead...enuff said.

  2. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    *nods
    Not going get any further here.
    Sone people have tunnel vision and can't see anything but what they want.

    Three people dead...enuff said.
    Agreed. A lot of people made great analogies and points though - wish they could have gotten through the tunnels.

  3. #223
    He really took it personally getting called a pussy. Its the last words he mutters to the guy as he guns him down with the rifle.

    Dude was cold as Ice once he decided what he was gonna do
    Suri Cruise and Katie Holmes are SP's.

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Agreed. A lot of people made great analogies and points though - wish they could have gotten through the tunnels.
    "wish they could have gotten through the tunnels"...says the man who is stuck in a tunnel himself.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by RobertoCarlos View Post
    He really took it personally getting called a pussy. Its the last words he mutters to the guy as he guns him down with the rifle.

    Dude was cold as Ice once he decided what he was gonna do
    I think he yells something like "You should have kept your fucking mouth shut" as he shoots the wife with it too.

    Couldn't make out the exact words at the end because the gunshot covers it up...but it was something along those lines.

    Also, when he comes out the second time it looks like he was pointing his gun at the bystanders that were trying to help.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    We're gonna Godwin so much you might even get tired of Godwinning

  5. #225
    Watching the video, I found it incredible how they were still talking shit even while being shot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Everything Nice View Post
    Even black people who don't LOOK like thugs, are still most definitely thugs.

  6. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bryntrollian View Post
    Watching the video, I found it incredible how they were still talking shit even while being shot.
    The whole thing is just insane. But yeah, that part is an extra level of nuts. Topped off by the guy going back for a second gun.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    "Hey, she came up to me and was super flirty, and even touched my chest. That totally makes the violent ass-raping to death totally her fault, right, because she instigated?"

    That's not a fucking argument, dude. Unless they went and armed themselves with lethal weaponry first, there was no "instigation" that would justify shooting them.
    It's pretty disingenuous to simply gloss over the difference between doing something innocuous like flirting or wearing certain type of clothing vs actively instigating confrontation or fomenting an apparently long-running feud. No one is saying that being rude should result in summary execution. From a legal standpoint the crime here is murder and I'm sure we can all agree that the victims didn't do anything that warranted them being killed. However, we're not making an argument in a court of law here and there's plenty more to this picture than just focusing in on the shooting.

    Being a dick to your neighbor isn't excusable regardless of whether it results in murder, and getting killed doesn't absolve someone of any wrongs they committed prior to that. Again, NO ONE is saying that what the couple did JUSTIFIED the shooting. You're conflating a big picture view of the events with legal culpability. There's also nothing wrong with using this as an example for why being civil with people you come in contact with is a good thing. In this case there seems to have been a very clear pattern of incivility that eventually spiraled way out of control.

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    It's pretty disingenuous to simply gloss over the difference between doing something innocuous like flirting or wearing certain type of clothing vs actively instigating confrontation or fomenting an apparently long-running feud. No one is saying that being rude should result in summary execution. From a legal standpoint the crime here is murder and I'm sure we can all agree that the victims didn't do anything that warranted them being killed. However, we're not making an argument in a court of law here and there's plenty more to this picture than just focusing in on the shooting.

    Being a dick to your neighbor isn't excusable regardless of whether it results in murder, and getting killed doesn't absolve someone of any wrongs they committed prior to that. Again, NO ONE is saying that what the couple did JUSTIFIED the shooting. You're conflating a big picture view of the events with legal culpability. There's also nothing wrong with using this as an example for why being civil with people you come in contact with is a good thing. In this case there seems to have been a very clear pattern of incivility that eventually spiraled way out of control.
    "Be nice to your neighbor or he'll fucking kill you," is a stupid lesson to teach. There are plenty of other reasons to reach for which don't implicitly support the reasoning of "I'll kill this guy and his wife for calling me a pussy." Living in a world where we're all being nice to each other because we're scared shitless of getting shot would be stupid. Be nice to your neighbors because it makes your life and theirs more pleasant, even if you have a conflict there's no need to be shitty.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaktar View Post
    "Be nice to your neighbor or he'll fucking kill you," is a stupid lesson to teach. There are plenty of other reasons to reach for which don't implicitly support the reasoning of "I'll kill this guy and his wife for calling me a pussy." Living in a world where we're all being nice to each other because we're scared shitless of getting shot would be stupid. Be nice to your neighbors because it makes your life and theirs more pleasant, even if you have a conflict there's no need to be shitty.
    Don't be stupid, there's no support for that, implicit of otherwise. Just like Endus you're conflating recognition of the circumstances with justification for the outcome. I was very clear that there's no condoning the escalation to violence. Are you going to sit there with a straight face and say that the verbal altercation had absolutely NOTHING AT ALL to do with the subsequent shooting?

    Yeah, there are plenty of good wholesome reasons why one should be nice to their neighbors. No one is saying fear of being killed is the best or only reason to be civil. If there's any lesson to be learned it's that escalation can spiral out of control. I'd be saying the same thing if this confrontation had ended in arson, assault, or just a continuation of their stupid snow shoveling feud.

  10. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Don't be stupid, there's no support for that, implicit of otherwise. Just like Endus you're conflating recognition of the circumstances with justification for the outcome. I was very clear that there's no condoning the escalation to violence. Are you going to sit there with a straight face and say that the verbal altercation had absolutely NOTHING AT ALL to do with the subsequent shooting?

    Yeah, there are plenty of good wholesome reasons why one should be nice to their neighbors. No one is saying fear of being killed is the best or only reason to be civil. If there's any lesson to be learned it's that escalation can spiral out of control. I'd be saying the same thing if this confrontation had ended in arson, assault, or just a continuation of their stupid snow shoveling feud.
    The thing is, the outcome is kinda important. The couple that got shot were clearly kinda terrible people themselves, and frankly if he had socked them in the face then walked off, 'They asked for it' would be something that a lot more people would agree with. However nothing they did, not the snow or the mean words, in any way even slightly excuses an execution. And that's kinda the thing. "They were asking for it" is a justification for a reasonable, proportional, response. Once the response crosses that line, bringing up the fact that they were awful people themselves just doesn't matter anymore.

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Don't be stupid, there's no support for that, implicit of otherwise. Just like Endus you're conflating recognition of the circumstances with justification for the outcome. I was very clear that there's no condoning the escalation to violence. Are you going to sit there with a straight face and say that the verbal altercation had absolutely NOTHING AT ALL to do with the subsequent shooting?

    Yeah, there are plenty of good wholesome reasons why one should be nice to their neighbors. No one is saying fear of being killed is the best or only reason to be civil. If there's any lesson to be learned it's that escalation can spiral out of control. I'd be saying the same thing if this confrontation had ended in arson, assault, or just a continuation of their stupid snow shoveling feud.
    What you're missing is that there are many circumstances which led to the shooting. If they hadn't left their home that day they would have been safe. Should the lesson be: don't go outside? No, you're choosing to fixate on one which immediately preceded the shooting, whose relevance you lack enough data to properly contextualize, which fits into a story you seem to like: guy was an asshole so he got shot. "See what happens," you sneer. The reality is you don't know why this happened, and a number of things could have changed in the scenario to make it end better. A better one to focus on would be: if the shooter had gone inside and taken a deep breath, let go of his anger, he wouldn't have come out and killed two people, then himself.

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynarii View Post
    The thing is, the outcome is kinda important. The couple that got shot were clearly kinda terrible people themselves, and frankly if he had socked them in the face then walked off, 'They asked for it' would be something that a lot more people would agree with. However nothing they did, not the snow or the mean words, in any way even slightly excuses an execution. And that's kinda the thing. "They were asking for it" is a justification for a reasonable, proportional, response. Once the response crosses that line, bringing up the fact that they were awful people themselves just doesn't matter anymore.
    Those people would be wrong in that case as well. Escalation isn't justified regardless of where it ends.

    Again, NO ONE IS EXCUSING THE MURDER. No one is saying "they were asking for it". That's the last time I'm going to say it because if it hasn't sunk in by now then we can just chalk it up to you (and others) projecting the argument you want to have where it doesn't exist.

    We're not talking about some sociopath that offed his kindly neighbors. If the situation had gone from verbal taunts, to physical assault, to theft, to destruction of property, to rape, and THEN to murder would you be making the same argument? That nothing that came before the murder matters in any way? It's all just different degrees of escalation.

    What's your endgame here? To pretend that there were no events leading up to the murder? Or that the negative actions of one party are no longer negative because they're dead?

  13. #233
    This was not a good man that was pushed to the limit by bad neighbours. This was a fucking time bomb just waiting to go off. If it wasn't this couple with their snow shoveling...it would have been something else eventually. Could have been a bad day at the office, a rude waiter at a restaurant, or a woman that refused his advances, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Midnight Bomber View Post
    We're gonna Godwin so much you might even get tired of Godwinning

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaktar View Post
    ...story you seem to like: guy was an asshole so he got shot. "See what happens," you sneer..
    Fuck off, dude. At no point did I say that being an asshole should lead to being shot. You seem hellbent on arguing a point that I'm not even trying to make, so maybe you'd be better served finding someone else in this thread to project your straw men onto.

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Fuck off, dude. At no point did I say that being an asshole should lead to being shot. You seem hellbent on arguing a point that I'm not even trying to make, so maybe you'd be better served finding someone else in this thread to project your straw men onto.
    So why fixate on that link in the chain of causation which led to three people being dead? That's the part I'm missing. Why not focus on the guy who actually committed a crime?

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Yep, and I'm on page 7. I don't even remember what the OP looked like lol.
    For the record, keeping gun control discussion in its own megathread is pretty much a standing rule.

    You have been around long enough to know that.

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by Flarelaine View Post
    For the record, keeping gun control discussion in its own megathread is pretty much a standing rule.

    You have been around long enough to know that.
    Guess you ought to move this thread then, don't you. Huh, if only it wasn't contextually sensible and we already had stopped talking about it like 5 pages ago...
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  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaktar View Post
    So why fixate on that link in the chain of causation which led to three people being dead? That's the part I'm missing. Why not focus on the guy who actually committed a crime?
    I'm not fixated on either one. I'm just not dismissing the events that came before the shooting began. Even the video itself has more context than "man kills man and woman". Better question is why focus solely on the murderer when there is clearly a bigger picture here?

    If you'd like we can just agree that the guy appears to have been a stone cold psychopath to have gunned down people in such a brutal and methodical manner. If you don't care about any events leading up to the murder, that's fine. I'm not going to make you care. However, I think it's important to recognize those events and possibly explore what could have changed the outcome without ignoring ANY of the wrongs that led up to the incident.
    Last edited by Adamas102; 2021-02-09 at 08:38 AM.

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    I'm not fixated on either one. I'm just not dismissing the events that came before the shooting began. Even the video itself has more context than "man kills man and woman". Better question is why focus solely on the murderer?
    Because focusing on the couple reinforces the idea that the killer's actions were valid whether you intend to or not.

  20. #240
    So because they died we should deny their role in the situation? Not buying that.

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