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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaktar View Post
    Because focusing on the couple reinforces the idea that the killer's actions were valid whether you intend to or not.
    Sorry, but if you think mentioning the couple and the events leading up to the shooting even suggests (much less reinforces) the idea that the murder was valid then that's on you. It's not an argument that anyone here is making so it's pure projection on your part, especially when it has been said time and time again that nothing validates the shooter.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Sorry, but if you think mentioning the couple and the events leading up to the shooting even suggests (much less reinforces) the idea that the murder was valid then that's on you. It's not an argument that anyone here is making so it's pure projection on your part, especially when it has been said time and time again that nothing validates the shooter.
    Naw it's not about mentioning, it's about a fixation - it comes up repeatedly. I described it as a link in the chain of causation - I'm not even arguing the point that it plays a role. I'm just questioning why so many of you are so adamant in bringing it up when it's ultimately just that - one of many factors. Not a particularly relevant one given that even you agree that what happened is not justified by that particular link. I'm more interested to understand how he got to the point where an extremely minor scuffle pushed him over the edge.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAmbient View Post
    So because they died we should deny their role in the situation? Not buying that.
    No one is asking that a parade be thrown in their honour.

    People being cunts doesn't mean they are responsible for the actions of a madman.
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  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaktar View Post
    Naw it's not about mentioning, it's about a fixation - it comes up repeatedly. I described it as a link in the chain of causation - I'm not even arguing the point that it plays a role. I'm just questioning why so many of you are so adamant in bringing it up when it's ultimately just that - one of many factors. Not a particularly relevant one given that even you agree that what happened is not justified by that particular link. I'm more interested to understand how he got to the point where an extremely minor scuffle pushed him over the edge.
    Well, I can’t exactly speak for everyone else, but you singled out my post (which began more as a condemnation against Endus equating flirting to engaging in an altercation).

    Maybe you expect too much from forum posts. None of us are going to write dissertations detailing every angle of this incident, so why make such a fuss about people using their few sentences to talk about the actions of the couple? It’s relevant discussion given the events of the video and subsequent news stories.

  5. #245
    "Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

    The guy was absolutely wrong to resort to murder to stop their antagonizing and bullying. That being said, beyond this being a senseless act of violence, I dont actually feel all broken up for the shooting victims, they were victims of both the shooter and their own poor behavior.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Well, I can’t exactly speak for everyone else, but you singled out my post (which began more as a condemnation against Endus equating flirting to engaging in an altercation).

    Maybe you expect too much from forum posts. None of us are going to write dissertations detailing every angle of this incident, so why make such a fuss about people using their few sentences to talk about the actions of the couple? It’s relevant discussion given the events of the video and subsequent news stories.
    There's also the specific shape of your arguments. You wrote:

    There's also nothing wrong with using this as an example for why being civil with people you come in contact with is a good thing. In this case there seems to have been a very clear pattern of incivility that eventually spiraled way out of control.
    The idea that there is a pattern of incivility that spiraled out of control is just one possible narrative of events, and patterns of incivility occur often without murder. Murder suggests something more serious is going on than mere incivility, so why select that narrative? In my opinion it's unhealthy for society and not that realistic in the first place - the shooter's mental health is probably a better place to look. The argument is becoming circular at this point, there are just a few fundamental points we differ on, so I'll let it go.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaktar View Post
    The idea that there is a pattern of incivility that spiraled out of control is just one possible narrative of events, and patterns of incivility occur often without murder. Murder suggests something more serious is going on than mere incivility, so why select that narrative? In my opinion it's unhealthy for society and not that realistic in the first place - the shooter's mental health is probably a better place to look. The argument is becoming circular at this point, there are just a few fundamental points we differ on, so I'll let it go.
    Of course incivility doesn’t always lead to murder, which is why I specified “in this case”. We don’t know exactly what was going through the killer’s head, but we DO know that there was an altercation (it’s clear as day in the video). If the reports can be trusted, we also see that this was part of a pattern.

    I also didn’t say that this is the only reason one should be kind to their neighbor, but based on the context that we’ve been given we can make an educated assumption that this particular incident revolved around that pattern of incivility.

    Maybe the couple could have been the kindest folks on earth and their neighbor still snapped and killed them on that very same day. However, that’s not how events panned out.

    Maybe it’s the line of work that I’m in, but every incident (even when no one is at fault) can be seen as a learning incident. Determining “what could have been done better” isn’t about doling out blame.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAmbient View Post
    So because they died we should deny their role in the situation? Not buying that.
    Nobody is denying their role. We're denying your premise that that is noteworthy. Did their actions affect the timeline and causation? Yeah, sure. Nobody is going to dispute that. What Endus and other people are disputing is a) the responsibility shared and b) the idea of some posters here that it is entirely normal to spend more time discussing what the victim did wrong than focusing on the shooter.

    Or, in terms you will understand, let me flip the table and ask you: "So, because they cussed at him, should we deny the role of the shooter in that situation?" Some here do not give the impression they are aware of the dramatic imbalance of "responsibility" in this situatio. Like... it's monumental differences in "how much did it attribute to the result of them being dead." A judge with proper training wouldn't even listen to that argument to determine guilt, I think.

    Here's the kicker that you lot don't get. Just because Endus says it's irrelevant to the case of shooting doesn't mean that legally it's not acknowledged. It would have played a role in determining the punishment. The shooter might have gotten some understanding on the level that you guys wish (it's still fucking miniscule, mind you... he shot them dead for cussing, even 10 years of cussing won't make any sensible person go "Oh yeah, he was totally justified!"). But it'll contribute to the subjective fact finding side of it. In his favour or not, who knows. Some might take it and argue that he planned this weeks ahead, given some evidence...

    ANYWAY, the point I'm making is that Endus is merely talking about responsibility and guilt. Not about "how much guilt", which is a later step in most criminal trials.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    "Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." - Robert E. Howard

    The guy was absolutely wrong to resort to murder to stop their antagonizing and bullying. That being said, beyond this being a senseless act of violence, I dont actually feel all broken up for the shooting victims, they were victims of both the shooter and their own poor behavior.
    And this is the correct phrasing for the situation without victim blaming.
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  9. #249
    You can't accept their role in the situation whilst also arguing that it's not worth mentioning. It's all part of the same story. In terms of which element of the story has been discussed the most, there's never really much to say in response to the actions of a murderer other than to remark on the obvious awfulness of what they did. But this particular story is slightly more unique owing to the ridiculously trivial nature of the row (an argument about shovelling snow), the couple's goading of an armed man, and the fact it was all caught on tape.

    "In terms you will understand"... really? Try to be less condescending. I can't speak for others but I'm well aware of the balance of responsibility here. People are simply remarking on the actions of the individuals, not making a legal case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    And this is the correct phrasing for the situation without victim blaming.
    No different to what I or others have already said here.
    Last edited by DarkAmbient; 2021-02-09 at 09:54 AM.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Nobody is denying their role. We're denying your premise that that is noteworthy. Did their actions affect the timeline and causation? Yeah, sure. Nobody is going to dispute that. What Endus and other people are disputing is a) the responsibility shared and b) the idea of some posters here that it is entirely normal to spend more time discussing what the victim did wrong than focusing on the shooter.

    Or, in terms you will understand, let me flip the table and ask you: "So, because they cussed at him, should we deny the role of the shooter in that situation?" Some here do not give the impression they are aware of the dramatic imbalance of "responsibility" in this situatio. Like... it's monumental differences in "how much did it attribute to the result of them being dead." A judge with proper training wouldn't even listen to that argument to determine guilt, I think.

    Here's the kicker that you lot don't get. Just because Endus says it's irrelevant to the case of shooting doesn't mean that legally it's not acknowledged. It would have played a role in determining the punishment. The shooter might have gotten some understanding on the level that you guys wish (it's still fucking miniscule, mind you... he shot them dead for cussing, even 10 years of cussing won't make any sensible person go "Oh yeah, he was totally justified!"). But it'll contribute to the subjective fact finding side of it. In his favour or not, who knows. Some might take it and argue that he planned this weeks ahead, given some evidence...

    ANYWAY, the point I'm making is that Endus is merely talking about responsibility and guilt. Not about "how much guilt", which is a later step in most criminal trials.

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    And this is the correct phrasing for the situation without victim blaming.
    Except it’s not. He literally says they’re victims of their own behavior. The correct phrasing would be, they seemed like assholes but who the fuck is the psycho executing people in the street?

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Except it’s not. He literally says they’re victims of their own behavior. The correct phrasing would be, they seemed like assholes but who the fuck is the psycho executing people in the street?
    While the shooter was entirely responsible for the shooting, the simple question is, in this case, would they have ended up bleeding out in the snow of they didn't antagonize and bully their neighbor for years? Saying that doesn't absolve the shooter, but like I said, it's hard to feel bad for them considering what they did. A part of abuse is that some abuse victims will eventually snap and violently lash out at their abuser, whether it's a parent, spouse, boss, lover, or school bully. Or a neighbor.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkAmbient View Post
    You can't accept their role in the situation whilst also arguing that it's not worth mentioning. It's all part of the same story. In terms of which element of the story has been discussed the most, there's never really much to say in response to the actions of a murderer other than to remark on the obvious awfulness of what they did. But this particular story is slightly more unique owing to the ridiculously trivial nature of the row (an argument about shovelling snow), the couple's goading of an armed man, and the fact it was all caught on tape.

    "In terms you will understand"... really? Try to be less condescending. I can't speak for others but I'm well aware of the balance of responsibility here. People are simply remarking on the actions of the individuals, not making a legal case.
    Endus is legally trained. This story? If we didn't have it on a video, it might come straight out of a textbook for students. It's a simple case, all elements are known, it's a prime example to discuss certain things. What I'm noticing is that Endus looks at it more analytically and with legal training, while the rest of you are very much caught up in emotions and moralities. He's right, that you are even arguing Endus only tells me that you haven't thought about his posts.

    It's not condescending, you clearly don't have legal training, so it's being dumbed down for you. That's just the reality of it. But instead of trying to get the point, you get all emotional about it again. Sorry about that, but the reality is that you probably don't have the knowledge to properly assess this and when people like Endus try to make you understand the misconception you're suffering from, you refuse to listen. That's on you.

    Lastly, people aren't just "remarking" on it, they are exclusively focusing on it, dismissing the shooter's responsibility almost entirely. That is just not acceptable. End of story.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Except it’s not. He literally says they’re victims of their own behavior. The correct phrasing would be, they seemed like assholes but who the fuck is the psycho executing people in the street?
    That's what he said. I mean, that's exactly what he said. Or at least that's how I understood the tone of his post. I can see how the phrase "victim of their own behaviour" contradicts that, though, so you may have a point. I just took it as a literary fluff piece given the context of the entire post.
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  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    While the shooter was entirely responsible for the shooting, the simple question is, in this case, would they have ended up bleeding out in the snow of they didn't antagonize and bully their neighbor for years? Saying that doesn't absolve the shooter, but like I said, it's hard to feel bad for them considering what they did. A part of abuse is that some abuse victims will eventually snap and violently lash out at their abuser, whether it's a parent, spouse, boss, lover, or school bully. Or a neighbor.
    We have no way of knowing. Thank you for acknowledging you were indeed victim blaming though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    Endus is legally trained. This story? If we didn't have it on a video, it might come straight out of a textbook for students. It's a simple case, all elements are known, it's a prime example to discuss certain things. What I'm noticing is that Endus looks at it more analytically and with legal training, while the rest of you are very much caught up in emotions and moralities. He's right, that you are even arguing Endus only tells me that you haven't thought about his posts.

    It's not condescending, you clearly don't have legal training, so it's being dumbed down for you. That's just the reality of it. But instead of trying to get the point, you get all emotional about it again. Sorry about that, but the reality is that you probably don't have the knowledge to properly assess this and when people like Endus try to make you understand the misconception you're suffering from, you refuse to listen. That's on you.

    Lastly, people aren't just "remarking" on it, they are exclusively focusing on it, dismissing the shooter's responsibility almost entirely. That is just not acceptable. End of story.

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    That's what he said. I mean, that's exactly what he said. Or at least that's how I understood the tone of his post. I can see how the phrase "victim of their own behaviour" contradicts that, though, so you may have a point. I just took it as a literary fluff piece given the context of the entire post.
    Read his previous post, you read his tone wrong.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    While the shooter was entirely responsible for the shooting, the simple question is, in this case, would they have ended up bleeding out in the snow of they didn't antagonize and bully their neighbor for years? Saying that doesn't absolve the shooter, but like I said, it's hard to feel bad for them considering what they did. A part of abuse is that some abuse victims will eventually snap and violently lash out at their abuser, whether it's a parent, spouse, boss, lover, or school bully. Or a neighbor.
    I don't feel an overwhelming amount of sympathy for them either...but I don't place the blame for their murder on anyone but their murderer. Also, it seems the the antagonistic nature of their relationship went both ways. We have no idea who the initial instigator was.

    All I know is that all three of them seemed like cunts...but only one of them is responsible for three deaths.
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  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    We have no way of knowing. Thank you for acknowledging you were indeed victim blaming though.

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    Read his previous post, you read his tone wrong.
    Yeah, I'm not. I'm saying abuse victims will sometimes lash out violently. These assholes didn't deserve to get shot for being assholes. But that's the problem with being an asshole and antagonizing people, sometimes you bully and abuse someone unstable enough to escalate and do something worse.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    Yeah, I'm not. I'm saying abuse victims will sometimes lash out violently. These assholes didn't deserve to get shot for being assholes. But that's the problem with being an asshole and antagonizing people, sometimes you bully and abuse someone unstable enough to escalate and do something worse.
    What you are saying is "if they had been nicer...they wouldn't be dead now"

    And that's Victim Blaming.
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  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Read his previous post, you read his tone wrong.
    He only posted the one post in this thread? Am I missing something? Nevermind, I'm reading what he posted now... gah...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stelio Kontos View Post
    While the shooter was entirely responsible for the shooting, the simple question is, in this case, would they have ended up bleeding out in the snow of they didn't antagonize and bully their neighbor for years? Saying that doesn't absolve the shooter, but like I said, it's hard to feel bad for them considering what they did. A part of abuse is that some abuse victims will eventually snap and violently lash out at their abuser, whether it's a parent, spouse, boss, lover, or school bully. Or a neighbor.
    Why do you feel the need to talk about their abuse of the shooter more than the shooter thinking it's alright to respond to verbal abuse with manslaughter? Do you not see the discrepancy in proportion?
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  18. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    We're not talking about some sociopath that offed his kindly neighbors. If the situation had gone from verbal taunts, to physical assault, to theft, to destruction of property, to rape, and THEN to murder would you be making the same argument? That nothing that came before the murder matters in any way? It's all just different degrees of escalation.?
    If it went from verbal taunts, to physical assault, to theft, to destruction of property, to rape, and THEN to murder, a lot more people would be talking about the rape as being a significant factor in the murder than the verbal taunts.

    And that's kinda the thing. The gap between verbal taunts and an execution is extreme. Orders of magnitude extreme. And yet at least in that specific moment the shooter clearly thought it was a justified response because he did it. Something bridged the gap between 'taunt' and 'murder' in the mind of the shooter. It may have been mental health issues the shooter had, it may have been undisclosed actions by the couple that we're unaware of, it may be a lot of things. But lets be brutally honest here, this was a grown-ass man who had been in the military. There is almost NO chance whatsoever that that was the first time in his life someone said something mean to him. There's no indication that he had a history of shooting every person he met with a foul mouth, so I feel fairly confident in saying that even if the words may have been the triggering event they were unlikely to be the actual reason why he responded in that manner. So I guess I feel that giving significant weight to the words alone is drawing a line from A to Z and ignoring the alphabet in between.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynarii View Post
    And that's kinda the thing. The gap between verbal taunts and an execution is extreme. Orders of magnitude extreme. And yet at least in that specific moment the shooter clearly thought it was a justified response because he did it. Something bridged the gap between 'taunt' and 'murder' in the mind of the shooter.
    I don't think he ever thought it was a justified response. I think this was an act of rage without much clear thinking at all. It'd have been his main defense in trial surely. Some people in that reddit thread talked about him being a cold killer, I think the theory that another redditor posted was more likely: The second he turned around to get his gun, he already made up his mind about the suicide. Think about it, if you're already suicidal and they manage to push him over the edge, killing them turns from murder to a mere formality in the psyche of a deranged mind that sees the solution in quitting the game 5 minutes after the deed.

    I think there is a strong case that he was not able to mentally assess the situation in any manner at the time he started shooting, least of all think about moral or ethical justifications.
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  20. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    I don't think he ever thought it was a justified response. I think this was an act of rage without much clear thinking at all. It'd have been his main defense in trial surely. Some people in that reddit thread talked about him being a cold killer, I think the theory that another redditor posted was more likely: The second he turned around to get his gun, he already made up his mind about the suicide. Think about it, if you're already suicidal and they manage to push him over the edge, killing them turns from murder to a mere formality in the psyche of a deranged mind that sees the solution in quitting the game 5 minutes after the deed.

    I think there is a strong case that he was not able to mentally assess the situation in any manner at the time he started shooting, least of all think about moral or ethical justifications.
    People self-justify their actions in the moment without needing to explicitly give thought to moral and ethical factors. Even in your example, the self-justification would be something along the lines of it not mattering anymore because he was going to suicide. In that scenario, the gap between 'taunt' and 'murder' would be filled with the factors that made him suicidal to begin with, and I would give those factors greater weight to the end result than mean words had.

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