Page 11 of 21 FirstFirst ...
9
10
11
12
13
... LastLast
  1. #201
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Undermine
    Posts
    19,283
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    And Hellscream has been at the stage and center of WC2, WC3 and his legacy carried well into WoW.
    Yeah, in the Warrior class.

    Hellscream is metal as fuck.

    I mean you can say heavy metal has no place in WOW all you want, but Blizzard has already shown its been a part of the series since WC2, and the references permeate all of Warcraft lore.
    Again, big difference between pulling aesthetics and references to metal music, and having a rock band class roaming around Azeroth with electric guitars and drum sets.

    Black Tooth Grin Clan is a literal reference to Pantera.
    So what? Where’s the adventurers in WoW fighting monsters with electric guitars and heavy metal songs?

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yeah, in the Warrior class.
    Yep, who can use weapons that are totally heavy metal inspired. So what's the problem again? Something about the Heavy Metal aesthetic doesn't work in WoW when Warriors can already run around with guitar-axes that turn them into rock stars?
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-08-23 at 06:30 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  3. #203
    Ngl, I did not read all of this, but from what I did read it looks really fun. I would probably consider coming back and at least trying it out.

  4. #204
    I think the whole "bard as a class" concept is dumb, but I'd be lying if I didn't like the "Loresong" spells you came up with.

  5. #205
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Undermine
    Posts
    19,283
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Yep, who can use weapons that are totally heavy metal inspired. So what's the problem again? Something about the Heavy Metal aesthetic doesn't work in WoW when Warriors can already run around with guitar-axes that turn them into rock stars?
    Again, some characters having a slight heavy metal aesthetic has nothing to do with WoW having a class that plays heavy metal music and uses heavy metal instruments. The latter simply doesn’t fit in WoW on the level required for a class.

    And I’ll repeat since you’re continually dodging the question; Where are the adventurers or adversaries in WoW that are fighting with heavy metal or rock music?

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Sure it fits.

    Grom Hellscream in WC2 was metal as fuck.

    ETC's members would all fit in any raid, even with their metal inspired instruments. The Arcanite Ripper and Sun Lute were even obtainable weapons that let you turn into ETC members and play rock music. This is as far back as TBC.

    Did you never play TBC or get these items? Cuz they were legit epic weapons, not just toys.
    How you regard things does not make them appropriate for the game. Rock N' Roll and heavy metal simply do no match a fantasy RPG setting. That's why Bards are mostly depicted with a guitar (i don't remember the exact name of that type which people used in old times).

    Nothing is 'grounded in lore' until it actually enters lore.

    Pandaria wasn't even truly grounded in lore until Mists of Pandaria formally introduced it.

    Rock and roll does exist in WoW since ETC and Blight Boar are both canonical.
    Pandaria fits a fantasy RPG like WoW. It is based on ancient china, not modern day one. If Pandaren were introduced with today's technology and lifestyle, it would be hella weird.

    Quote Originally Posted by AKCephalopod View Post
    Warcraft has involved rock and roll as an aesthetic for a long time. Remember when you beat the Warcraft 3 campaign and were rewarded with a rock concert staring Arthas as the lead guitarist or ETC? What about the quest at the Darkmoon Faire with the band Blightboar? Or how so much of the early aesthetic of Warcraft was based on heavy metal album covers?

    If you're looking for lore or aesthetics for the bard to be based around, the Darkmoon Faire is chocked full of it, not to mention how much the setting itself owes to the aesthetics of heavy metal.
    Those are just nice little tributes since the developers were hardcore metal heads. It has nothing to do with the actual setting of the game.
    I'm tempted to apply for a moderator position, just so i can go moderator on your asses.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    What major storylines have they taken part in? What are their heroic exploits? Where are similar characters like them in order to justify a class?

    If we can't answer those questions, then they aren't really lore characters.



    Villains can also be considered a "hero" character. Hero characters are not always aligned with good.



    "Wallpaper" is exactly what I would classify characters like the ETC as. Nothing more than silly spoofs to add some levity to the world.

    - - - Updated - - -



    There's a difference between creating a one-off weapon for shits and giggles, and creating an entire class that requires a legitimate lore basis.
    I'll go ahead and flip the question on you since you've been asking it so much. What heroic accomplishments did monks have before being introduced? What storylines did they participate in?

    Before you say, "but Chen in Warcraft 3," go look at what he was actually like in that game. Besides being a joke character and his whole quest revolving around making a beer from silly ingredients, his abilities aren't monk abilities. They're based around his beer. And his ultimate, storm, earth, and fire, lists him as being a warrior, not a monk.

    Mists just contrived brewmasters to be part of their new, made up for the new lore, monk class. Originally, they were just a cultural version of a warrior, like blademasters were for orcs.

    Bards already have about the same level of lore involvement that monks had pre-mists.

  8. #208
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Undermine
    Posts
    19,283
    Quote Originally Posted by AKCephalopod View Post
    I'll go ahead and flip the question on you since you've been asking it so much. What heroic accomplishments did monks have before being introduced? What storylines did they participate in?

    Before you say, "but Chen in Warcraft 3," go look at what he was actually like in that game. Besides being a joke character and his whole quest revolving around making a beer from silly ingredients, his abilities aren't monk abilities. They're based around his beer. And his ultimate, storm, earth, and fire, lists him as being a warrior, not a monk.

    Mists just contrived brewmasters to be part of their new, made up for the new lore, monk class. Originally, they were just a cultural version of a warrior, like blademasters were for orcs.

    Bards already have about the same level of lore involvement that monks had pre-mists.
    Check out the table top game that predated WoW and was canon lore up until MoP. The Brewmaster class was very much a Monk.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2021-08-23 at 01:13 PM.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    How you regard things does not make them appropriate for the game. Rock N' Roll and heavy metal simply do no match a fantasy RPG setting. That's why Bards are mostly depicted with a guitar (i don't remember the exact name of that type which people used in old times).
    And we have those in the game already. I'm not sure why you're saying Rock is inappropriate when Blizzard has Rock concerts every month in Darkmoon Faire, has added Guitar-shaped axes that turn you into Rockstars, has Punk rock hairstyles for Forsaken and Orcs, and has had all of these in the game since TBC.

    I mean it's like arguing that Lasers aren't appropriate to the game, and ignoring the fact that we have plenty of Lasers in the game through NPCs, Engineering gadgets and more. It's already in the fucking game lol

    And the audacity to say 'How you regard things does not make them appropriate for the game.' but you did the exact same thing by cherry picking what you think a Bard should look like, and how that depiction is likely a Rogue because you found em in the Hall of Shadows. That's just how *you* are regarding things too.

    -edit-

    Also found the Bard in Maldraxxus

    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Winslow_Swan




    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Again, some characters having a slight heavy metal aesthetic has nothing to do with WoW having a class that plays heavy metal music and uses heavy metal instruments.
    At least you admit the heavy metal aesthetic exists now.

    Warriors already can use heavy metal instruments as weapons, and they can be used as transmogs even. Grom Hellscream in WC2 literally sang Rock and Metal songs in his pissed lines. How is that not fitting the Warcraft aesthetic?

    You seem to think Warcraft is a strict high-fantasy setting or something, when you fully know well it's not.

    And I’ll repeat since you’re continually dodging the question; Where are the adventurers or adversaries in WoW that are fighting with heavy metal or rock music?
    In the same place where adventurers in WoW are fighting with Claw Packs and Pocket Factories.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-08-23 at 05:09 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Check out the table top game that predated WoW and was canon lore up until MoP. The Brewmaster class was very much a Monk.
    According to a blue post by bashiok when asked "Q: Are the Warcraft and World of Warcraft RPG books considered canon?"

    The response was "A: No. The RPG books were created to provide an engaging table-top role-playing experience, which sometimes required diverging from the established video game canon. Blizzard helped generate a great deal of the content within the RPG books, so there will be times when ideas from the RPG will make their way into the game and official lore, but you are much better off considering the RPG books non-canonical unless otherwise stated."

    Even more fun fact, the original Warcraft roleplaying game book did include bards since it inherited all character creation rules from DnD 3e, so citing the RPG books actually makes your argument against bards weaker.

  11. #211
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Undermine
    Posts
    19,283
    Quote Originally Posted by AKCephalopod View Post
    According to a blue post by bashiok when asked "Q: Are the Warcraft and World of Warcraft RPG books considered canon?"

    The response was "A: No. The RPG books were created to provide an engaging table-top role-playing experience, which sometimes required diverging from the established video game canon. Blizzard helped generate a great deal of the content within the RPG books, so there will be times when ideas from the RPG will make their way into the game and official lore, but you are much better off considering the RPG books non-canonical unless otherwise stated."

    Even more fun fact, the original Warcraft roleplaying game book did include bards since it inherited all character creation rules from DnD 3e, so citing the RPG books actually makes your argument against bards weaker.
    Again, the RPG books were canon from WC3 all the way up until MoP. So in short, Blizzard always viewed Brewmasters as a type of Monk.

    Also link to the Bard Warcraft class please....

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post

    At least you admit the heavy metal aesthetic exists now.

    Warriors already can use heavy metal instruments as weapons, and they can be used as transmogs even. Grom Hellscream in WC2 literally sang Rock and Metal songs in his pissed lines. How is that not fitting the Warcraft aesthetic?
    And for the fifth time, having an aesthetic does not mean that an entire class based on that aesthetic fits the thematic of the game. It's like saying we can have a hip-hop Raggae class because Trolls utilize Jamaican and Caribbean aesthetics.

    In the same place where adventurers in WoW are fighting with Claw Packs and Pocket Factories.
    We don't need claw packs and pocket factories because the general concept is a Goblin utilizing technology to fight with. So while we haven't seen a claw pack or a pocket factory, we've seen plenty of Goblins and Gnomes piloting mechs;


  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    We don't need claw packs and pocket factories because the general concept is a Goblin utilizing technology to fight with. So while we haven't seen a claw pack or a pocket factory, we've seen plenty of Goblins and Gnomes piloting mechs;
    And from the same game, we have plenty of races using instruments







    With those instruments actually being usable weapons in WoW.




    The animations for guitar-playing are even in the game. You telling me that Blizzard can't make a class around that? I mean, it's gonna be no less absurd than them making a class around giant mech suits and pocket factories, I can tell you that.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-08-23 at 04:14 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Again, the RPG books were canon from WC3 all the way up until MoP. So in short, Blizzard always viewed Brewmasters as a type of Monk.

    Also link to the Bard Warcraft class please....

    - - - Updated - - -



    And for the fifth time, having an aesthetic does not mean that an entire class based on that aesthetic fits the thematic of the game. It's like saying we can have a hip-hop Raggae class because Trolls utilize Jamaican and Caribbean aesthetics.



    We don't need claw packs and pocket factories because the general concept is a Goblin utilizing technology to fight with. So while we haven't seen a claw pack or a pocket factory, we've seen plenty of Goblins and Gnomes piloting mechs;

    The RPG books were never cannon. They contradicted cannon very often, though debate raged over whether or not they were cannon until the statement I linked was released more than a year before MoP.

    Digging up pdfs for the books is difficult, but I'll give it a more thorough shot when I get off work. For now, however, I do know that the WoW RPGs used the 3rd edition dnd ruleset which definitely included bards as a playable class. Whatever modifications the setting may or may not have made, I can't tell without the actual books or pdfs.

    Either way, however, if we treat the books as cannon, then bards are the same category as monks: both are included in the rpg but not the game. With monks being added in MoP, it sets the precident that things from the RPG can cross over. If we don't consider the RPGs to be cannon, then bards and monks are also in the same category as classes that don't exist in game, but could still be brought over, just like monks were, with the right circumstances in the story.

  14. #214
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Undermine
    Posts
    19,283
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    And from the same game, we have plenty of races using instruments
    That isn't the same game. That's a remake, not the original WC3.

    With that said, can you show me an adventurer in WoW using a heavy metal guitar and using guitar riffs and heavy metal music to defeat enemies?


    The animations for guitar-playing are even in the game. You telling me that Blizzard can't make a class around that? I mean, it's gonna be no less absurd than them making a class around giant mech suits and pocket factories, I can tell you that.
    Except we have multiple Goblin and Gnome adventurers who utilize mech suits. In fact it's a rather common activity within those races, and it's depicted in Warcraft constantly.

    Where's the heroes of Warcraft using heavy metal music to smite foes?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by AKCephalopod View Post
    The RPG books were never cannon.
    Uh yes they were;

    http://web.archive.org/web/200712060...y/index.html#3

    Further, much of the Pandaren Monk concept came from the tabletop games.


    Now, where's the Bard from Warcraft/WoW RPGs?

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    That isn't the same game. That's a remake, not the original WC3.
    Yes, a remake that is built to be closer aligned to WoW, lol

    ETC band wasn't even in WC3, and they retroactively added them. That's how well integrated the band is into the Warcraft universe.

    Where's the heroes of Warcraft using heavy metal music to smite foes?
    Same place where the Tinkers are who are using Claw Packs and Pocket Factories smiting foes. Again, where are they all? In other games, that's where.

    If you say we have multiple adventurers who utilize mech suits, then I can say we have multiple adventurers who utilize sound, instruments and music. And we do. Leatherworking Wardrums, Priest Hymns, Warrior Warcries, etc.

    If you're going to apply it further absurdity like Claw Packs and Pocket Factories, then it's no different than going further with music and instruments to actual guitars and some heavy metal riffs. I mean, at the end of the day it's just gonna be game mechanics with some funny sounds attached to it. It's no less absurd than the choirs from nowhere that follow you every time you level up or get ressed

    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-08-23 at 06:07 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  16. #216
    you cant add 1 support class to the game so get to work on at least 2 more.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by ZazuuPriest View Post
    you cant add 1 support class to the game so get to work on at least 2 more.
    It won't happen. But hypothetically, if it did, I think they could repurpose a few other class specializations into Support roles. Enhancement is a no-brainer. Perhaps Paladin Holy. Discipline. Maybe Arms could become a Captain/Battlemaster sort of fantasy. Arcane, playing with time. With a little creativity, there would be room for the Support role.

    But again, they decided that wasn't going to be a playstyle found in WoW when they neutered Shaman and Paladin, and homogenized every aspect of them that was remotely useful.

  18. #218
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Undermine
    Posts
    19,283
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Yes, a remake that is built to be closer aligned to WoW, lol

    ETC band wasn't even in WC3, and they retroactively added them. That's how well integrated the band is into the Warcraft universe.
    Yeah, because it was a spoof of the Tauren Chieftain, and based on a cover band run by Blizzard employees. They remain a spoof in WoW almost 20 years later.

    Same place where the Tinkers are who are using Claw Packs and Pocket Factories smiting foes. Again, where are they all? In other games, that's where.
    The difference being that the claw pack itself even transformed into a mech that the Goblin can ride in, thus a class utilizing a claw pack isn't required because a mech piloting class does the exact same thing. And we have several Goblin and Gnome heroes who pilot mechs.

    On the other hand, there are no heroes or adventurers in WoW utilizing heavy metal music via electric guitars to smite monsters and demons.

    You're comparing the superficial to the fundamental.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by ZazuuPriest View Post
    you cant add 1 support class to the game so get to work on at least 2 more.
    Support classes existed in Vanilla, and were retooled to become full fledged healers or hybrid DPS/Heal (whatever you can consider Discipline to be)

    Bard would fit in the same way. There's no real support class, but it could be a class that has plenty of utility baked in to make it stand out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    And we have those in the game already. I'm not sure why you're saying Rock is inappropriate when Blizzard has Rock concerts every month in Darkmoon Faire, has added Guitar-shaped axes that turn you into Rockstars, has Punk rock hairstyles for Forsaken and Orcs, and has had all of these in the game since TBC.

    I mean it's like arguing that Lasers aren't appropriate to the game, and ignoring the fact that we have plenty of Lasers in the game through NPCs, Engineering gadgets and more. It's already in the fucking game lol

    And the audacity to say 'How you regard things does not make them appropriate for the game.' but you did the exact same thing by cherry picking what you think a Bard should look like, and how that depiction is likely a Rogue because you found em in the Hall of Shadows. That's just how *you* are regarding things too.

    -edit-

    Also found the Bard in Maldraxxus

    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Winslow_Swan

    That they are in game doesn't mean they are part of the story and fantasy. All these are just fun little shticks.

    Engineering has been grounded in Gnomish and Goblin cultures for as long as they exist. They're not merely fun little references, but actual part of the fantasy.

    The Bard, if you don't know, is based on:
    "The bard is a standard playable character class in many editions of the Dungeons & Dragons fantasy role-playing game. The bard class is versatile, capable of combat and of magic (divine magic in earlier editions, arcane magic in later editions). Bards use their artistic talents to induce magical effects. The class is loosely based on the special magic that music holds in stories such as the Pied Piper of Hamelin, and in earlier versions was much more akin to being a Celtic Fili or a Norse Skald, although these elements have largely been removed in later editions. Listed inspirations for bards include Taliesin, Homer, Will Scarlet and Alan-a-Dale."

    Which is, in turn, based on:
    "In Celtic cultures, a bard is a professional story teller, verse-maker, music composer, oral historian and genealogist, employed by a patron (such as a monarch or noble) to commemorate one or more of the patron's ancestors and to praise the patron's own activities."

    Nothing Rock N' Rollish or heavy metal about it.
    To exemplify my claim, the picture you posted of a Necrolord bard has this mandolin instrument and not an electric guitar.

    So, stop butchering the fantasy for your own sake.
    I'm tempted to apply for a moderator position, just so i can go moderator on your asses.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •