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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yeah, because it was a spoof of the Tauren Chieftain, and based on a cover band run by Blizzard employees. They remain a spoof in WoW almost 20 years later.
    And what do Pandarens, Tinkers and Bards all have in common? They were all April Fools material.

    Whether a spoof or not, they're in WoW, they have their weapons obtainable as weapons usable by players, and we have a history of music in classes right now.

    The difference being that the claw pack itself even transformed into a mech that the Goblin can ride in, thus a class utilizing a claw pack isn't required. And we have several Goblin and Gnome heroes who pilot mechs.

    On the other hand, there are no heroes or adventurers in WoW utilizing heavy metal music via electric guitars to smite monsters and demons.

    You're comparing the superficial to the fundamental.
    Heavy metal isn't required as well.

    You could have a Bard class that plays out all the mainstay high fantasy Bard tropes, and have a spec or a couple abilities that reference Heavy Metal, and that would be enough to completely play out that fantasy as well. Just like Brewmaster doesn't have 100% abilities that all deal with Alcohol abilities. It's like 90% martial arts, 10% Alcohol/Keg-related abilities.

    Literally have a couple of ETC's abilities or passives enter in as one or two Talent options, and bam, you have a Heavy Metal customizable option for your Bard.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    That they are in game doesn't mean they are part of the story and fantasy. All these are just fun little shticks.
    It means they are canonical and are aesthetically in the game.

    Fun shticks are a part of WoW, whether playable in a class or not.

    Engineering has been grounded in Gnomish and Goblin cultures for as long as they exist. They're not merely fun little references, but actual part of the fantasy.
    So is music. Kodoriders have been in WC3 as support units that play music for buffs. They're effectively the Horde variant of a Bard.

    Most of the Aura items in WC3 came in the form of instruments. Scourge Bone-Chimes, Lionhorn of Stormwind, Warsong Battle Drums, Legion Doom-Horn, Ancient Janngo of Endurance, Alleria's Flute of Accuracy. From these items alone, there is enough material to form the basis for an actual Bard class.

    Leatherworking even carries some of that theme over with the Drum kits that give Bloodlust.

    Nothing Rock N' Rollish or heavy metal about it.
    Heavy Metal and Rock can simply be flavoured abilities. It doesn't have to seep into every aspect of a playable Bard. As I explained to Teriz, you could literally take one or two ETC talents from HOTS and insert them as Bard Talents, and that would be enough to allow you to fulfill a Heavy Metal flavour for your Bard if you choose to, while 90% of the Bard itself would be built around more standard class mechanics. It's the same as Monks having all things Alchohol related being exclusive to Brewmasters, and even then it only really appears in one or two abilities through the entire spec.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-08-23 at 06:37 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  2. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    And what do Pandarens, Tinkers and Bards all have in common? They were all April Fools material.

    Whether a spoof or not, they're in WoW, they have their weapons obtainable as weapons usable by players, and we have a history of music in classes right now.
    Except Pandarens and Tinkers wound up as heroes in Warcraft. The Bard did not.

    Heavy metal isn't required as well.
    If you're basing a class on ETC, it is.

    You could have a Bard class that plays out all the mainstay high fantasy Bard tropes, and have a spec or a couple abilities that reference Heavy Metal, and that would be enough to completely play out that fantasy as well. Just like Brewmaster doesn't have 100% abilities that all deal with Alcohol abilities. It's like 90% martial arts, 10% Alcohol/Keg-related abilities.
    Your comparisons continue to be terrible. The Brewmaster is based on Drunken Kung Fu, so despite the use of alcohol, the spec is STILL based on martial arts. Additionally, every spec in the Monk class brews beverages. Thus it aligns just fine with the other two specs which are also based around martial arts and brewing.

    However, a class where one spec is playing a lute or a harp and playing medieval tunes doesn't work very well with a spec wearing glam rock outfits and playing heavy metal rock music. We also have the rather major problem that we have no examples of any such heroes existing in the history of Warcraft.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Except Pandarens and Tinkers wound up as heroes in Warcraft. The Bard did not.
    Because we already had Kodoriders in WC3.

    And the fact that any hero could be associated to playing music by obtaining any musical instrument Aura-providing item, like I listed in the post above.

    Your comparisons continue to be terrible. The Brewmaster is based on Drunken Kung Fu, so despite the use of alcohol, the spec is STILL based on martial arts.
    You shouldn't be talking about bad comparisons if you're comparing a typical fantasy Bard with a couple of Heavy Metal/Rock homages to someone wearing Glam Rock outfits.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-08-23 at 07:17 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It means they are canonical and are aesthetically in the game.

    Fun shticks are a part of WoW, whether playable in a class or not.
    So are tribute characters.
    You'd be wise to separate the wheat from the chaff.

    So is music. Kodoriders have been in WC3 as support units that play music for buffs. They're effectively the Horde variant of a Bard.

    Most of the Aura items in WC3 came in the form of instruments. Scourge Bone-Chimes, Lionhorn of Stormwind, Warsong Battle Drums, Legion Doom-Horn, Ancient Janngo of Endurance, Alleria's Flute of Accuracy. From these items alone, there is enough material to form the basis for an actual Bard class.

    Leatherworking even carries some of that theme over with the Drum kits that give Bloodlust.
    None of them are Rock N' roll or heavy metal. You know why? because it doesn't belong to any of the races' cultures.

    Heavy Metal and Rock can simply be flavoured abilities. It doesn't have to seep into every aspect of a playable Bard. As I explained to Teriz, you could literally take one or two ETC talents from HOTS and insert them as Bard Talents, and that would be enough to allow you to fulfill a Heavy Metal flavour for your Bard if you choose to, while 90% of the Bard itself would be built around more standard class mechanics. It's the same as Monks having all things Alchohol related being exclusive to Brewmasters, and even then it only really appears in one or two abilities through the entire spec.
    What's next? techno and trance for Bards? come on.. you'd have to adjust the class for everyone's taste in music.

    There's nothing out of place in the Brewmaster's alcohholic themes. It's, literally, an ancient custom as time itself.
    I'm tempted to apply for a moderator position, just so i can go moderator on your asses.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    None of them are Rock N' roll or heavy metal. You know why? because it doesn't belong to any of the races' cultures.
    So would you say that racial dances that reference pop culture are also not part of their cultures? Like the Blood Elves having Napoleon Dynamite dance or the Draenei doing Tunak Tunak?

    Where exactly do you draw the line here for what defines 'culture'?

    Because Grom Hellscream was literally singing Heavy Metal/Rock songs in his voice lines.


    What's next? techno and trance for Bards? come on.. you'd have to adjust the class for everyone's taste in music.

    There's nothing out of place in the Brewmaster's alcohholic themes. It's, literally, an ancient custom as time itself.
    There's nothing out of place for a heavy metal homage either when it's been a staple of Warcraft since the RTS games. And we have literal Heavy Metal/Rock inspired Weapons and musicians in the game.

    Like, how do you react when those weapons were added to the game? Did you not live with it? Or maybe you weren't even playing WoW back then?
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-08-23 at 07:28 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    So would you say that racial dances that reference pop culture are also not part of their cultures? Like the Blood Elves having Napoleon Dynamite dance or the Draenei doing Tunak Tunak?

    Where exactly do you draw the line here for what defines 'culture'?

    Because Grom Hellscream was literally singing Heavy Metal/Rock songs in his voice lines.
    Not one bit. They're just for fun. There's nothing representative of their cultures in these dances.
    I suggested replacing them because they look goofy and break immersion.

    There's nothing out of place for a heavy metal homage either when it's been a staple of Warcraft since the RTS games. And we have literal Heavy Metal/Rock inspired Weapons and musicians in the game.

    You know one of the songs in Warcraft 3 is literally titled Blackrock and Roll, right?
    It's not a staple of anything. It's, literally, a fun gimmick they put in as fans that you take too seriously.
    I'm tempted to apply for a moderator position, just so i can go moderator on your asses.

  7. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Because we already had Kodoriders in WC3.
    And the name of this hero is…….????

    Also I would very much like to hear your concept of a Kodorider class.

    And the fact that any hero could be associated to playing music by obtaining any musical instrument Aura-providing item, like I listed in the post above.
    You’re shifting the goalposts now. You were talking about a class based on ETC. Now you’re talking about a general music-based concept.

    Which lends it more towards profession territory than a stand alone class.


    You shouldn't be talking about bad comparisons if you're comparing a typical fantasy Bard with a couple of Heavy Metal/Rock homages to someone wearing Glam Rock outfits.
    So again; are we talking about your standard fantasy bard like the OP, or are you talking about a Bard class based on the ETC? The two concepts don’t mesh, and neither have a basis for a class in WoW.

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Support classes existed in Vanilla, and were retooled to become full fledged healers or hybrid DPS/Heal (whatever you can consider Discipline to be)

    Bard would fit in the same way. There's no real support class, but it could be a class that has plenty of utility baked in to make it stand out.
    there were not support classes in vanilla, people love making up shit

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by ZazuuPriest View Post
    there were not support classes in vanilla, people love making up shit
    There were support specs for raiding.

    Druids and Holy Paladins were literally brought for buffs, and only buffs. I wish I was making shit up, but there was literally no other reason to bring me into a ZG raid other than for having Innervate for the Priests. My Paladin buddies were literally on Buff duty for Molten Core runs, cycling through Blessings and otherwise not even allowed to spend their mana on heals if it meant messing with the buff cycles.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Now you’re talking about a general music-based concept.
    I've _always_ been talking about a general music based concept, and I've only ever countered the idea that Heavy Metal doesn't fit in WoW aesthetics when we already have rock concerts and Heavy Metal inspired weapons in the game.

    Which lends it more towards profession territory than a stand alone class.
    I agree, I'd rather Music be implemented as a profession instead. I don't think that means it couldn't also be a class. Just like how Engineering doesn't mean we can't have Tinkers.

    So again; are we talking about your standard fantasy bard like the OP, or are you talking about a Bard class based on the ETC? The two concepts don’t mesh, and neither have a basis for a class in WoW.
    I don't think it matters what we're talking about because you're going to dismiss the idea of any playable Bard class regardless.

    Tell me, is there any way you could actually see a Bard class working in WoW? Because if it makes a difference, then I'll be glad to discuss further. Otherwise there's really no point in asking any nuances here if you're gonna be dismissing any Music-related hero concept regardless of what idea is being presented.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Not one bit. They're just for fun. There's nothing representative of their cultures in these dances.
    I suggested replacing them because they look goofy and break immersion.
    Sure you suggested replacing them, but the fact that they exist in Warcraft means they also fit the aesthetics of the game. Fun things can enter into classes as well, like Mages having a Sheep shaped Staff as an Artifact weapon skin.

    It's not a staple of anything. It's, literally, a fun gimmick they put in as fans that you take too seriously.
    Who's taking it too seriously? I'm not the one who suggested those references be taken out of the game because they're 'goofy and break immersion'.

    For all the finger pointing you're doing crying out how I'm regarding things too serious or whatnot, you're the one who's actually proclaiming how you think the game has to be, while I'm just pointing out literal examples of stuff that's already in the game.

    Not once have I even put out an opinion on what I *think* Bards should be. Cuz if you were to ask me, I'd simply say it'd be better off as a profession. That way they can go as whacky as they want with Heavy Metal or any type of music, and it would be fine because it doesn't have to fit into any sort of rotation that will annoy the F out of everyone. Treat it as absurdly as Engineering, which has exploding robot animals and shrink rays.

    But even as a profession, your argument is that Heavy Metal doesn't fit WoW at all, whereas there are dozens of examples of Music-based references and specifically Heavy Metal references in the game right now.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-08-23 at 08:28 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Sure you suggested replacing them, but the fact that they exist in Warcraft means they also fit the aesthetics of the game.
    No, it means the developers had fun at work. They just didn't bother to research what would fit those races and went with what was familiar and popular at the time.

    Fun things can enter into classes as well, like Mages having a Sheep shaped Staff as an Artifact weapon skin.
    Yeah, cosmetic things maybe that last an expansion.

    It's funny that you talk about fans who take things too seriously, while admitting certain things should be taken out of the game because they're 'goofy and break immersion'.
    Not taken out. But, given more choices.
    I mean, Arthas has a Rock N' Roll appearance:


    Does it make him a Bard? no. He's a Death Knight. It's a joke and you should be aware of it by now.
    I'm tempted to apply for a moderator position, just so i can go moderator on your asses.

  11. #231
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I've _always_ been talking about a general music based concept, and I've only ever countered the idea that Heavy Metal doesn't fit in WoW aesthetics when we already have rock concerts and Heavy Metal inspired weapons in the game.
    False. You were basing a class concept on the ETC hero. The ETC hero is not a general music concept. Further, the “rock concerts” aren’t lore based events.

    I agree, I'd rather Music be implemented as a profession instead. I don't think that means it couldn't also be a class. Just like how Engineering doesn't mean we can't have Tinkers.
    Again, it can’t be a class because the classes are hero based, and there are no music based heroes in WoW. The fact that there is no Bard hero in WC3, tabletop games, or WoW proper should tell you how Blizzard views the concept.


    Tell me, is there any way you could actually see a Bard class working in WoW? Because if it makes a difference, then I'll be glad to discuss further. Otherwise there's really no point in asking any nuances here if you're gonna be dismissing any Music-related hero concept regardless of what idea is being presented.
    Frankly the only way I could see a Bard working in WoW is if they utilized the concept of Deckard Cain from HotS; Dropping potions, using artifacts, using words to cause a variety of effects, etc.. From there, you could theoretically tie in Lorewalkers, Professors, Scholars, Artificers, etc. into the concept. However, you still need a lore character/hero to emerge to tie it together. Lorewalker Cho is one, but you would need more. Way more.

    Something like that? Sure. It meshes with WoW, and you could more readily pull something out of your butt to justify it.

    Music-based hero? No.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2021-08-23 at 08:37 PM.

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    No, it means the developers had fun at work. They just didn't bother to research what would fit those races and went with what was familiar and popular at the time.

    Yeah, cosmetic things maybe that last an expansion.
    And transmogs make them all relevant even today. I mean, the point is you said this stuff doesn't fit WoW at all, yet here we are with it front and center being a player-driven choice to use.

    Whether you personally agree or not is something you need to be more clear on stating, but as a universal statement, heavy metal inspired weapons absolutely fit the aesthetic of WoW because they are already in the game. This includes the Rock Concerts that actually exist in the game.

    Not taken out. But, given more choices.
    I mean, Arthas has a Rock N' Roll appearance:

    Does it make him a Bard? no. He's a Death Knight. It's a joke and you should be aware of it by now.
    But I never said Arthas would *be* a Bard. I would point that out as an example of how the aesthetic *still fits WoW* as a full package game that IS full of shits-and-giggles easter eggs and fun stuff, alongside your hardcore high-fantasy tropes. Warcraft is absolutely a mixed bag, and you can't just cherry pick the fantasy as being what WoW's aesthetic is all about and trying to dismiss all the other non-fantasy stuff that literally permeates the game.

    At the base level, a Bard class would play as you normally expect out of an RPG Bard class. Yet Blizzard can always keep the design open to enough to throw in some easter egg or homage abilities/talents, just for the sake of fan service and crowd pleasing. We have this already happening in existing classes, and every class has some level of absurdity attached to them. Mages had a Sheep Stick Artifact skin. Hunters could tame some really strange pets like a Robot Chicken or Mechanical Squirrel. Druids could turn into a Flaming Cat, where it absolutely makes no sense in the lore for them to have that ability.

    Fun stuff permeates classes. Why are you so upset about Heavy Metal?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Frankly the only way I could see a Bard working in WoW is if they utilized the concept of Deckard Cain from HotS; Dropping potions, using artifacts, using words to cause a variety of effects, etc..
    That's your idea of a Bard? A character that doesn't use any music at all?

    Jeez, and you're criticizing me for making bad comparisons? Really, dude? Really?

    If Priests can have Hymns and you're fine with it, I don't think there's anything taboo about Music at all. Not quite sure why you think they're such a threat to your Tinker idea. I mean, you're trying real hard to push the 'Technology is the only legitimate unique theme left to cover' angle, and you're making some really awful strawman arguments and bad comparisons to do so.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-08-23 at 08:49 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    There were support specs for raiding.

    Druids and Holy Paladins were literally brought for buffs, and only buffs. I wish I was making shit up, but there was literally no other reason to bring me into a ZG raid other than for having Innervate for the Priests. My Paladin buddies were literally on Buff duty for Molten Core runs, cycling through Blessings and otherwise not even allowed to spend their mana on heals if it meant messing with the buff cycles.
    Hybrids don't equal support classes just because you and your dumbass friends were forced to play a certain way. Convenient also that you only mention raiding. Not to mention Pallies having the best single-target healing in the game or druids annihilating healing when both tanks are taking consistent damage. Gotta be the most disingenuous response I've read this year to anything.

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by ZazuuPriest View Post
    Hybrids don't equal support classes just because you and your dumbass friends were forced to play a certain way. Convenient also that you only mention raiding. Not to mention Pallies having the best single-target healing in the game or druids annihilating healing when both tanks are taking consistent damage. Gotta be the most disingenuous response I've read this year to anything.
    There was no Hybrid role in Vanilla.

    Sorry to throw down some truth bombs on you, but if you were brought to raid only to buff, then you're effectively a support class. And this design was intentional since that's how games like Everquest were designed too. Being a 'Hybrid' was meaningless, since no one was actually playing a multi-role spec in Vanilla. You had to take a specific spec that let you have access to the ability people would take you into the raid for, and whatever points you had left was all the flexibility you had as a 'hybrid'. Not one second was there any room for any Druid to do any tangible DPS in the group and swap out to do some quick heals or anything like that. Druids had one role in Vanilla - Innervate the Priest, and maybe once they're all geared out and you get some pieces, allow you to heal.

    Not to mention Pallies having the best single-target healing in the game
    Yeah but once you had a couple actual healer Pallies, the rest would be on support duty with buff rotations. Not every Holy spec Pally brought to the raid were all going to be healing. You only got to heal if you were allowed to.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-08-23 at 08:56 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  15. #235
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    That's your idea of a Bard? A character that doesn't use any music at all?

    Jeez, and you're criticizing me for making bad comparisons? Really, dude? Really?

    If Priests can have Hymns and you're fine with it, I don't think there's anything taboo about Music at all. Not quite sure why you think they're such a threat to your Tinker idea. I mean, you're trying real hard to push the 'Technology is the only legitimate unique theme left to cover' angle, and you're making some really awful strawman arguments and bad comparisons to do so.
    They’re not a threat to the Tinker at all. I simply don’t view lute playing Bards as a viable concept. They really don’t fit WoW, and they really offer nothing unique to the game. Something along the lines of Deckard Cain fits quite a bit better, and it wouldn’t surprise me if Blizzard envisioned the “Bard” concept in that way.

    Additionally, a more Scholar/Lorewalker style character would be something unique, and actually fit in WoW’s trinity system. As you said, music abilities already exist in the game via Priests and Warriors, and really don’t add much of anything. A class more along the lines of Deckard offers far more unique opportunities.

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    They’re not a threat to the Tinker at all. I simply don’t view lute playing Bards as a viable concept.
    Yes, because deep down you see them as a threat to the Tinker, even if you haven't fully admit it to yourself.

    I mean, it's deep-seeded enough where you couldn't even give me an example of a playable concept that has music at all in it. It's so taboo to you that you couldn't even allow a hint of Music being in any Bard concept that works in WoW. This might not be something you intend to show, but it sure speaks volumes when your own examples are so pushed so far that you think the only way a Bard can be playable is if it plays like Deckard Cain from HOTS, who isn't even a Bard at all.

    You can't even admit that Music as a theme could be unique, lol. You're totally scared of it taking away 'design space' from your precious Tinker.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-08-23 at 09:01 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  17. #237
    Well...

    Hots has a L70ETC hero. And monks are proof that you don't need to stick to one concept for the spec. So in the same way that the monk are more than Brewmasters, Bards could be more than just rockers.

    Anyway, it's still pretty silly. But it's what I think would be cool.

  18. #238
    Sound damage and debuff abilities are all over the game, albeit they are all visually same+y right now and ofc, only used by NPCs.

    That could be changed obviously.

  19. #239
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Yes, because deep down you see them as a threat to the Tinker, even if you haven't fully admit it to yourself.

    I mean, it's deep-seeded enough where you couldn't even give me an example of a playable concept that has music at all in it. It's so taboo to you that you couldn't even allow a hint of Music being in any Bard concept that works in WoW. This might not be something you intend to show, but it sure speaks volumes when your own examples are so pushed so far that you think the only way a Bard can be playable is if it plays like Deckard Cain from HOTS, who isn't even a Bard at all.

    You can't even admit that Music as a theme could be unique, lol. You're totally scared of it taking away 'design space' from your precious Tinker.
    Please explain how a music-themed class concept would be unique when we already have multiple classes that utilize music/sound -based magic.

    Also Bards aren’t only musicians. They’re also storytellers and entertainers.

  20. #240
    make like the emerald dream and give it a rest

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