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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Please explain how a music-themed class concept would be unique when we already have multiple classes that utilize music/sound -based magic.

    Also Bards aren’t only musicians. They’re also storytellers and entertainers.
    We don't have any class that actually uses instruments to perform music. And instead of even admitting this as a unique aspect not covered in the game, you try your best to avoid it completely, to the point of even associating a Bard class to 'using potions and artifacts'.

    I mean, isn't that like saying we have classes that cover technology, like Hunters and Rogues, so tech isn't a unique theme? You'd similarly say we don't have a class that *does specific technology in this way*. So I'm sure you can reach the common ground of admitting a Bard can bring something unique, musically, as a Class theme, because they *provide music in a specific way*.

    You can at least admit to it, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    We don't have any class that actually uses instruments to perform music. And instead of even admitting this as a unique aspect not covered in the game, you try your best to avoid it completely, to the point of even associating a Bard class to 'using potions and artifacts'.
    Uh, Death Knights have the Horn of Winter, and I’m sure other classes have utilized instruments in the past. We also have multiple musical instruments as items that players can use.

    How does any of that create a unique playing experience?

    I mean, isn't that like saying we have classes that cover technology, like Hunters and Rogues, so tech isn't a unique theme?
    Yeah, I wouldn’t consider shooting a gun as “covering technology”…. Further piloting a vehicle and technology are unique themes in the class lineup.

    You'd similarly say we don't have a class that *does specific technology in this way*. So I'm sure you can reach the common ground of admitting a Bard can bring something unique, musically, as a Class theme, because they *provide music in a specific way*.

    You can at least admit to it, right?
    Not really. I mean how would a Bard ability be any different than the Warrior’s Shouts, The Priest’s hymns? A character holding a sword and enhancing everyone with a Battle Shout is no different than a character holding a lute and doing the same thing.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    There was no Hybrid role in Vanilla.

    Sorry to throw down some truth bombs on you, but if you were brought to raid only to buff, then you're effectively a support class. And this design was intentional since that's how games like Everquest were designed too. Being a 'Hybrid' was meaningless, since no one was actually playing a multi-role spec in Vanilla. You had to take a specific spec that let you have access to the ability people would take you into the raid for, and whatever points you had left was all the flexibility you had as a 'hybrid'. Not one second was there any room for any Druid to do any tangible DPS in the group and swap out to do some quick heals or anything like that. Druids had one role in Vanilla - Innervate the Priest, and maybe once they're all geared out and you get some pieces, allow you to heal.



    Yeah but once you had a couple actual healer Pallies, the rest would be on support duty with buff rotations. Not every Holy spec Pally brought to the raid were all going to be healing. You only got to heal if you were allowed to.
    Druids could heal, druids could tank, and yes, druids could dps. If you think they couldn't you're a fucking retard.
    Thanks for agreeing with me on the paladin thing though. Just because some people let themselves be forced into being a buff bot does not make the class support.
    Next youre going to tell me no on raided as Disc, and that if they did, since they only slightly gimped their HPS to gain PI for the mages that they were in effect a support class and not a healers.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by ZazuuPriest View Post
    Druids could heal, druids could tank, and yes, druids could dps. If you think they couldn't you're a fucking retard.
    I main a druid and tanked in Vanilla. Leveled up enchanting max to make Heart of the Mountain armor trinket just to do so.

    And early Molten Core trash is practically the extent it will take you before it became the Warriors sole role in all of Vanilla raids and you were told to respec to Innervate/Heals.

    Again, 'Hybrid' is absolutely meaningless if we're talking about roles for Raiding, where the whole 'Support Class' role has any meaning. And in terms of Vanilla, that was definitely a role considering the nature of Class buffs that lasted 5-10 minutes and needed to be individually buffed for the entire raid.

    Support, as a role in raids for Vanilla, definitely existed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Uh, Death Knights have the Horn of Winter, and I’m sure other classes have utilized instruments in the past. We also have multiple musical instruments as items that players can use.
    I said performing with instruments. Death Knights don't perform any music at all, they're just blowing a Horn.

    How does any of that create a unique playing experience?
    How does Death Knight blowing a Horn create a unique playing experience when compared to a class that actually performs music with instruments?

    Kinda like asking how Monks create a unique experience with Martial Arts when Warriors and Rogues already have Punch and Kick abilities. I'm sure you can make the connection.

    Yeah, I wouldn’t consider shooting a gun as “covering technology”…. Further piloting a vehicle and technology are unique themes in the class lineup.
    And I wouldn't consider blowing a one-note Horn as 'covering music'.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  5. #245
    The mechanics look very interesting, but the class fantasy itself just doesn't mash well with WoW, specially the idea that there's like a cosmic necessity for their role. It just seems unnecessary, and the Magician spec really doesn't fit in that whole backstory.

    I like the idea of sound magic and harmonics, Bastion already touches a lot on those aspects, but yeah, I can't get past the set up that we need the power of music to destroy Murmur.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I main a druid and tanked in Vanilla. Leveled up enchanting max to make Heart of the Mountain armor trinket just to do so.

    And early Molten Core trash is practically the extent it will take you before it became the Warriors sole role in all of Vanilla raids and you were told to respec to Innervate/Heals.

    Again, 'Hybrid' is absolutely meaningless if we're talking about roles for Raiding, where the whole 'Support Class' role has any meaning. And in terms of Vanilla, that was definitely a role considering the nature of Class buffs that lasted 5-10 minutes and needed to be individually buffed for the entire raid.

    Support, as a role in raids for Vanilla, definitely existed.
    Weird because we had a druid tank through Nax completion and cleared all content. So you're full of shit.

    Druids were by far the best Rag tanks but I appreciate that you couldn't get past the trash you've already established you don't know wtf you're talking about its no surprise you didn't know how to gear properly and play properly.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by ZazuuPriest View Post
    Weird because we had a druid tank through Nax completion and cleared all content. So you're full of shit.
    Oh wow, your one druid tank made it through all of Nax. Guess that means Support Druids never existed then
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Oh wow, your one druid tank made it through all of Nax. Guess that means Support Druids never existed then
    I didn't say "support druids" aka druids that were forced to play stupidly didn't exist you are the one claiming that they couldn't tank. there's a difference.

    my whole point is there has never been such thing as a dedicated support class in wow. you keep coming up with examples of why you think its true because you're ass at the game and were forced into certain roles. Im showing you evidence that druids were not just innervate bots, priests played disc and could still heal, Paladins have the best ST healing.

    And before you say no evidence or something else retarded, as youre like to do, you can easily look up the hundreds of druids who got past MC trash and tanks every boss in vanilla via warcraftlogs.com. take the time and look at both tbc and vanilla logs because if a guild transitioned to tbc their logs are located in tbcs warcraftlog page.
    Last edited by ZazuuPriest; 2021-08-23 at 10:17 PM.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by ZazuuPriest View Post
    my whole point is there has never been such thing as a dedicated support class in wow.
    Any class with a unique, short-duration buff in the game was a Support Class. This terminology is as unofficially accepted as 'Hybrid' class, which simply means any class capable of performing multiple roles (either by respeccing or through a 'hybrid' build)

    There was no dedicated Support Role in the game, but there were definitely Support Classes since Blizzard originally designed them with unique support buffs or abilities that no other class had available to them.

    There are no Support Classes in modern WoW, because they effectively removed any unique short-term buffs from the game, or homogenized the system so that it is no longer a role to fill.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-08-23 at 10:28 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Any class with a unique, short-duration buff in the game was a Support Class. This terminology is as unofficially accepted as 'Hybrid' class, which simply means any class capable of performing multiple roles (either by respeccing or through a 'hybrid' build)

    There was no dedicated Support Role in the game, but there were definitely Support Classes since Blizzard originally designed them with unique support buffs or abilities that no other class had available to them.

    There are no Support Classes in modern WoW, because they effectively removed any unique short-term buffs from the game, or homogenized the system so that it is no longer a role to fill.
    move those goalposts bud.

    So now the argument is Warriors = Support class, by that stroke of logic

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by ZazuuPriest View Post
    move those goalposts bud.
    I literally said that about classes that my first reply to you.

    "Support classes existed in Vanilla, and were retooled to become full fledged healers or hybrid DPS/Heal (whatever you can consider Discipline to be)

    Bard would fit in the same way. There's no real support class (in current WoW), but it could be a class that has plenty of utility baked in to make it stand out."

    That you couldn't read and assumed something different is not me moving goalposts, buddy.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-08-23 at 10:48 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  12. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I said performing with instruments. Death Knights don't perform any music at all, they're just blowing a Horn.
    So you're suggesting that we have characters dance around and strum guitars and blow flutes while people are fighting?

    That really doesn't seem very Warcraft-like.

    How does Death Knight blowing a Horn create a unique playing experience when compared to a class that actually performs music with instruments?
    What's the difference? In both cases you're utilizing an instrument and causing an effect to happen. Again, are you suggesting that we have the characters actually doing a performance?

    Kinda like asking how Monks create a unique experience with Martial Arts when Warriors and Rogues already have Punch and Kick abilities. I'm sure you can make the connection.
    You mean one punch and one kick ability. And the Rogue kick didn't even cause damage.

    Meanwhile Warriors have about a dozen sound-based abilities...

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    So you're suggesting that we have characters dance around and strum guitars and blow flutes while people are fighting?

    That really doesn't seem very Warcraft-like.
    Aside from the dancing, which Bards don't really do, the Kodoriders did this in Warcraft 3. They sat back and played music to buff your troops. How is that not Warcraft-like?

    Honest question.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-08-24 at 12:38 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  14. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Aside from the dancing, which Bards don't really do, the Kodoriders did this in Warcraft 3. They sat back and played music to buff your troops. How is that not Warcraft-like?

    Honest question.
    They were hitting drums while riding on the back of huge dinosaurs.

    How would you translate that into a class?

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    They were hitting drums while riding on the back of huge dinosaurs.

    How would you translate that into a class?
    Same way they translated Death Knights riding on the back of skeletal horses?

    Again, how is that not Warcraft? Wardrummers are a core part of the Horde's fantasy. You even saw kodos front and center in the WC3 Cinematic trailers. Thats more than we can say about anything Tinker related in WC3.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-08-24 at 02:35 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  16. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Same way they translated Death Knights riding on the back of skeletal horses?
    Riding on the back of the horse wasn’t the core of the DK’s design. It is the core of the design of the Kodo Rider though, since it’s ability is tied to the Kodo.

    Again, how is that not Warcraft? Wardrummers are a core part of the Horde's fantasy. You even saw kodos front and center in the WC3 Cinematic trailers. Thats more than we can say about anything Tinker related in WC3.
    Uh, I never said the Kodorider wasn’t Warcraft. I said a Bard prancing around the battlefield playing a lute isn’t Warcraft.

    Now again, please explain how you translate the Kodorider into a class.

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    explain how you translate the Kodorider into a class.
    The same way you extrapolate Shaman or Priest or literally any existing class - extrapolation.

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    And transmogs make them all relevant even today. I mean, the point is you said this stuff doesn't fit WoW at all, yet here we are with it front and center being a player-driven choice to use.

    Whether you personally agree or not is something you need to be more clear on stating, but as a universal statement, heavy metal inspired weapons absolutely fit the aesthetic of WoW because they are already in the game. This includes the Rock Concerts that actually exist in the game.
    They can add a magical dildo weapon. It still wouldn't be more than a joke.

    But I never said Arthas would *be* a Bard. I would point that out as an example of how the aesthetic *still fits WoW* as a full package game that IS full of shits-and-giggles easter eggs and fun stuff, alongside your hardcore high-fantasy tropes. Warcraft is absolutely a mixed bag, and you can't just cherry pick the fantasy as being what WoW's aesthetic is all about and trying to dismiss all the other non-fantasy stuff that literally permeates the game.

    At the base level, a Bard class would play as you normally expect out of an RPG Bard class. Yet Blizzard can always keep the design open to enough to throw in some easter egg or homage abilities/talents, just for the sake of fan service and crowd pleasing. We have this already happening in existing classes, and every class has some level of absurdity attached to them. Mages had a Sheep Stick Artifact skin. Hunters could tame some really strange pets like a Robot Chicken or Mechanical Squirrel. Druids could turn into a Flaming Cat, where it absolutely makes no sense in the lore for them to have that ability.

    Fun stuff permeates classes. Why are you so upset about Heavy Metal?
    The Arthas example was to show you how this all Rock N' Roll theme is a joke. E.T.C is literally a joke on Tauren Chieftains. Grommash Hellscream singing metal (which i don't remember) is also nothing but a gag, because he's a raider. You can claim his clan, the warsong, have fearsome howls all you want and connect it to singing. But, that would still be far from the truth.

    I'm glad you understand these are all shits and giggles. Therefore, they should be kept as such and never constitute a meaningful part of the Bard.

    Hunters taming mechanical pets relates to technological races like the Gnomes and Goblins.

    Flaming cat is part of the Druid of the flame lore. If they added a furry anime character on all four that attacks with the power of love - that would be a joke.

    I'm not upset about heavy metal. I'm upset of you trying to shove into the fantasy of class that is based on ancient musicians, not current day ones.
    They can add all the Rock N' Roll and heavy metal that you like - as a fun stuff - but never as a core of the Bard.
    I'm tempted to apply for a moderator position, just so i can go moderator on your asses.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    I'm not upset about heavy metal. I'm upset of you trying to shove into the fantasy of class that is based on ancient musicians, not current day ones.
    They can add all the Rock N' Roll and heavy metal that you like - as a fun stuff - but never as a core of the Bard.
    In that case, in all honesty, you'll never see a Bard in World of WarCraft. Music has its place in this franchise, but those "ancient musicians" and skalds and the like... they're just not a part of the fabric of the franchise. You need to transpose the rock aesthetic to get something that actually fits in this universe.

    But you're both right - Rock 'n Roll is a joke, just as Pandaren were.

  20. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    The same way you extrapolate Shaman or Priest or literally any existing class - extrapolation.
    Not remotely the same thing. The Shaman class was a combination of related units, and it made sense because we had identifiable heroes who used Shaman abilities. The Priest only had one unit, but that unit had three abilities and was an RPG staple. All you have here is a Kodorider with the ability to eat other units and pump out an aura that multiple classes already pump out.

    People keep saying you can construct a class from this sole unit, yet no one has done so yet.

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