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  1. #1

    new flagellation even worse?

    Originally Posted by MMO-Champion

    Rogue (Forums, Talent Calculator)
    • Flagellation (New) Lash the target for [ 100% of Attack Power ] Shadow damage, increasing the range of your melee attacks by 6 yards for 10 sec. Venthyr. Venthyr. 12 yd range. Instant. 1.5 min cooldown. 1 sec global cooldown.





    this has to be early WIP but even then, its just me or are we going in a even worse direction with flagellation?

    i guess all rogue abilities are a bit underwhelming but simply removing energy cost and maybe gdc would fix main problems with flagellation, imo

    thoughts or is it too early to complain?

  2. #2
    kinda a mixed bag

    On one hand the way it is now is kind of annoying and REALLY punishing at times. But cant think of too many instances where I thought "Oh gee I wish I had an extra 6 yards of melee for 10 seconds". Wonder if it stacks with the Acrobatic Strikes. Either way its more user friendly but also VERY neutered.

  3. #3
    Yeah that's worse. For me, all they needed to do was make it so we got the haste buff without having to remember to reactivate the ability.
    If what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. Then I should be a god by now.

  4. #4
    Make it add like 20yrds and we might be talking. Being able to DPS a raid boss while running away from their AoE etc wouldn't be terrible.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by MatPandaZ View Post
    Make it add like 20yrds and we might be talking. Being able to DPS a raid boss while running away from their AoE etc wouldn't be terrible.
    Exactly. It's only for 10 seconds so they might as well increase the range to make it actually useful. At that point though, it would seem like an ability I'd enjoy having!
    So far, all rogue-specific covenant abilities have been a letdown. Having wanted to go Venthyr from the beginning but being deterred by the awful state of Flaggelation, I'll welcome any change to it.

    Just think of the ranged Kidney Shots you could pull of in M+ and especially PvP...

  6. #6
    I think it's just a tentative build or it could be some old iteration that came out with datamining - most of the covenant skill changes are actually tooltip fixes. Necrolord is getting broad buffs given how it is the least represented. For sure rogue in general are not in a bad situation - all skills are pretty balanced but they're also pretty boring and not impactful. Excluding Kyrian, which is annoying as hell.

    Current Flagellation is a hit and miss - too many times you have to delay it because otherwise you're just gonna waste it, plus its ramp-up is annoying and sometimes you're just not able to use it at full effect because combo generation is not consistent (maybe in Sub with SD).

    This one instead is totally uninspired. A "big" one hit button with increased attack range is not what rogues want or need. Give another finisher we can weave into the rotation or some kind of aoe burst, this is just useless. I am sure that if they pump up the multiplier it will be fine, but that's not what we need.
    You tried, and you failed. What have you learned? That's better not to try at all.

  7. #7
    evidence of so called support? lol
    “Choose a job you love and you'll never have to work a day in your life” “Logic will get you from A to Z; Imagination will get you everywhere.”

  8. #8
    It would have been a greater nightmare to balance, but I would have liked it much more if covenants just *modified* mechanically and visually your already existing abilities. I really hate the "1,5~2 min cooldown" setup most of them have.

    Imagine if Flagellation was "embedded" on all rogue attacks. Instead of golden-purple slashes, venthyr rogues would have "bloody" slashes, and maybe a mechanic that stacks "punishment" on targets attacked (slower with area attacks), a life-stealing element added to adrenaline rush-vendetta-shadowblades, and things like that.
    Once upon a time... the end. Next time, try twice upon a time.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Feril View Post
    It would have been a greater nightmare to balance, but I would have liked it much more if covenants just *modified* mechanically and visually your already existing abilities. I really hate the "1,5~2 min cooldown" setup most of them have.

    Imagine if Flagellation was "embedded" on all rogue attacks. Instead of golden-purple slashes, venthyr rogues would have "bloody" slashes, and maybe a mechanic that stacks "punishment" on targets attacked (slower with area attacks), a life-stealing element added to adrenaline rush-vendetta-shadowblades, and things like that.
    Don't like specifically this idea, but i like the idea of a passive that you need to track and maybe use at certain stacks? Makes more sense than having a button to press and hope mechanics/phases won't screw it up.
    You tried, and you failed. What have you learned? That's better not to try at all.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Feril View Post
    It would have been a greater nightmare to balance, but I would have liked it much more if covenants just *modified* mechanically and visually your already existing abilities. I really hate the "1,5~2 min cooldown" setup most of them have.

    Imagine if Flagellation was "embedded" on all rogue attacks. Instead of golden-purple slashes, venthyr rogues would have "bloody" slashes, and maybe a mechanic that stacks "punishment" on targets attacked (slower with area attacks), a life-stealing element added to adrenaline rush-vendetta-shadowblades, and things like that.
    A lot of people have actually talked about this already. Even if the covenants just visually changed your abilities it would be awesome. But I guess they limited this concept to the stupid Hearthstone replacement you can buy at each covenant. Now you can look "cool" while going back to your home... Nice... :P

  11. #11
    Eh, point is that they actually managed to do some great stuff like Convoke, and if i have to think visually wise all the ground Fae effect are gorgeous, also the immense bloody aoe the DK (?) has?

    Rogue is in a spot where more or less all covenants are just fine in terms of numbers, but they're also boring as hell, uninspired and annoying to use at times. They could have done with much better stuff like a generator replacement or a new finisher - i like how the Kyrian one impacts your rotation but it's just a clusterfuck plus i hate Kyrian visually and i won't ever pick those
    You tried, and you failed. What have you learned? That's better not to try at all.

  12. #12
    Increases the range of melee attacks? Is this a joke or something? Good thing I chose Necro since Fleshcraft seems to be getting some buffs

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Mysterymask View Post
    kinda a mixed bag

    On one hand the way it is now is kind of annoying and REALLY punishing at times. But cant think of too many instances where I thought "Oh gee I wish I had an extra 6 yards of melee for 10 seconds". Wonder if it stacks with the Acrobatic Strikes. Either way its more user friendly but also VERY neutered.
    As a feral druid with the option to go into balance affinity for another 3 yards I can't imagine living without it. Being able to get out of bad while still remaining within "melee range" is a pretty big deal to me.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Eh, point is that they actually managed to do some great stuff like Convoke, and if i have to think visually wise all the ground Fae effect are gorgeous, also the immense bloody aoe the DK (?) has?

    Rogue is in a spot where more or less all covenants are just fine in terms of numbers, but they're also boring as hell, uninspired and annoying to use at times. They could have done with much better stuff like a generator replacement or a new finisher - i like how the Kyrian one impacts your rotation but it's just a clusterfuck plus i hate Kyrian visually and i won't ever pick those
    Yeah, covenants also have introduced this "new problem" in which there will be an ability that you like mechanically but you hate the covenant aesthetic, and a covenant that you like aesthetically but you hate the ability you're stuck with, or you're stuck with a sucky ability and a sucky aesthetic but it's hand down the best one out there (for those that min-max). Sometimes you'll land the jackpot, but it's all over the place.

    I really like the necrolord rogue ability (fire and forget!), but I hate necrolords looks, for example. I chose venthyr 'cause it's the looks I liked the most (and their utility is cool, though I wish it wouldn't take you out of stealth), but the venthyr rogue ability is kind of blegh visually and mechanically absurd (I mean, its important information is sprinkled in at least three places in the screen if you don't use some kind of WeakAuras).

    I want cool-looking and/or not cumbersome attacks (or cool modifications to pre-existing attacks), not another "you're buffed lol" mostly invisible cooldown

    But it looks like they're willing to rework abilities to some extent, so maybe there's hope for something I can actually see and doesn't make me babysit it.

    I really miss my focusing iris
    Once upon a time... the end. Next time, try twice upon a time.

  15. #15
    Yeah, Covenants looked good on paper but they brought way more headaches than actual inprovements. Also, as Preach with Raider.io team demonstrated pretty easily, maybe at start some people tried something off-meta, but the vast majority simply don't care about anything else that's not the "best option available". And the trend is that people will jump on the "winning team", screwing any kind of real or supposed balanced distribution.

    Covenants are a great addition in lore and story. I like having to choose one out of 4, i would have made changing them very hard if not straight out impossible. But since they're tied directly with character power, they couldn't simply do that and even if right now swapping is really easy, it's still a massive pain to just jump around everytime Blizzard decides to buff or nerf something.

    Covenant skills and soulbinds should have been just disconnected from covenants. Players should be able to choose any skill/soulbind combo they like at any cost for rerolling because that's just how the game works and how people play. Covenants campaign and all other content can easily stay the way it is because it has no ties with player performance. Also balancing skills and soulbinds would have been massively easier since no matter the changes, people could just swap and adjust anytime.

    Right now we're in for 9.0.5 with all the changes they made and we'll see how many people will just complain about all the work they have put in a covenant (minigames, appearance unlock, etc) to see that taken away and abruptly stopped because suddendly their best option is now another covenant and they have to refarm all the renown, etc.

    Fun fact: if for example convoke the spirits will still stay the best option for druids, nothing will actually change from now.
    You tried, and you failed. What have you learned? That's better not to try at all.

  16. #16
    I have to assume this in addition to what Flagellation already does, it doesn't make any sense to change Flagellation into only a single hit with a secondary niche effect. It does less damage than Sepsis and Echoing Reprimand and doesn't generate combo points.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Aurrora View Post
    I have to assume this in addition to what Flagellation already does, it doesn't make any sense to change Flagellation into only a single hit with a secondary niche effect. It does less damage than Sepsis and Echoing Reprimand and doesn't generate combo points.
    Even if it's in addition it doesn't make much sense. The increased melee range isn't really useful because once you've put flagellation on someone, any combo spent on any target will trigger the damage independently of range. Plus, it's a two-presses button that gives two different effects, and the description doesn't fit at all - i can get the front-loaded damage but when does the increased range start? At first press (so 10 seconds out of current 30) or at the second? It simply cannot work based on how it's worded.

    I assume it's either a datamining error (could be some discarded iteration from beta or so) or just a tentative idea to try new stuff for it. I'm pretty sure we're not getting this - more likely we get a very revamped ability or if nothing worth comes out we'll keep the one we have.
    You tried, and you failed. What have you learned? That's better not to try at all.

  18. #18
    It looks like this is possibly more geared towards PvP. Cheap/Kidney shot from like 11-12 yards away could help keep people locked down without slipping away. Sometimes I overshoot a mob from the extra speed buff after a Shadowstep and create a gap so I guess it might help me with that lol.

  19. #19
    The old flagellation is terrible. Our class is already riddled with buff and debuff management, and dealing with the stupid GCD and priorities, boss mechanics, etc make the 2nd part of the ability obnoxious to use.

    This sounds unfinished but I prefer something powerful and fun like some other class abilities (Wild Spirits, Convoke, Divine Toll, Abom Limb, etc).

    What I would like personally is something that is strongly vampire themed. A death from above style finisher on a longer ~30-45sec CD that gives us the cool red blood glow, allows us to leap into a pack of mobs doing a lot of AOE damage, and then for X seconds afterward buffs our damage and adds a substantial amount of leech, like if we stay in melee and continue to do damage during the duration we're basically healing to full. In PVP this would be countered by CCing us during buff duration or kiting to minimize damage and leech heal.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    The old flagellation is terrible. Our class is already riddled with buff and debuff management, and dealing with the stupid GCD and priorities, boss mechanics, etc make the 2nd part of the ability obnoxious to use.

    This sounds unfinished but I prefer something powerful and fun like some other class abilities (Wild Spirits, Convoke, Divine Toll, Abom Limb, etc).

    What I would like personally is something that is strongly vampire themed. A death from above style finisher on a longer ~30-45sec CD that gives us the cool red blood glow, allows us to leap into a pack of mobs doing a lot of AOE damage, and then for X seconds afterward buffs our damage and adds a substantial amount of leech, like if we stay in melee and continue to do damage during the duration we're basically healing to full. In PVP this would be countered by CCing us during buff duration or kiting to minimize damage and leech heal.
    An Idea:

    Sanguine Assault
    You coat your Weapons in deadly Anima, assaulting all (8?) Enemies within 12 Yards, dealing (X% attack power) shadow damage and marking them as [insert flavor name here].
    For 10 seconds, your Damage is increased by X% and your Leech is increased by Y% for each [insert flavor name here] within 12 Yards.
    (Optional idea: if only 1 target is hit, the damage and leech effects will be increased by X%)

    i think the initial hit should be around 150-200% AP if target capped or 100-150% if uncapped.
    since our strong point right now is outlaw cleave, the +dmg and leech effects cannot be high or it would lead to balancing issues.
    i am not too familiar with current high-end meta to say how much +dmg would be good without being OP.
    The above mentioned remarks, ideas and notions are simply my thought on this topic. I do not wish to aggravate, denounce or criticize anyone who, for whatever reason, may disagree.

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