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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by ArcanoAZR View Post
    and 20% nerf on Malefic Rapture... as always they dont know what they are doing with warlock
    That's justifed though. Affliction would only scale further ahead as the expansion goes on.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Nadiru View Post
    With all of that improvement Destruction got in beta, right? Gimme a break.
    Destruction didn't need any improvements. It was already pretty much perfect in BFA and very little changed for a reason.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by enigma77 View Post
    Destruction didn't need any improvements. It was already pretty much perfect in BFA and very little changed for a reason.
    Except they pulled the one build that Destro players wanted from Beta: Rain of Chaos.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Nadiru View Post
    Except they pulled the one build that Destro players wanted from Beta: Rain of Chaos.
    It's still very good in Mythic +.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    So what are you trying to argue here?

    You said locks scales great with gear.
    And you're also trying to say "see, there was a lock in the first 20 when gear was bad!"

    So by that logic, locks should be meta since they would have only gotten better since then, and yet...they still aren't picked as much as other casters.

    And I never said they ONLY pick meta, you should re-read what I said.
    They do scale with gear. The point of noting that players gear at that point in time is to highlight that the spec is strong and the player wasn't just overgearing the scenario.

    Meta is a perception by the community and perpetuated by opinions such as yours that then reinforce the current meta. You literally said:

    You mean you don't bring locks at all because there's better casters to bring.
    So yeah, you did say they only pick meta.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Inukashi View Post
    20% nerf to MR ist 8% overall nerf. Together with 5% on destro buff, I think affi now is only 2% ahead of destro in ST and far behind in MT.
    Your maths need a bit of correcting.

    1) MR Nerf is not live, it's on PTR
    2) AFTER the 5% buff, aff is still 20% ahead of destro. A 8% nerf will still place aff 12% ahead of destro. (check wlogs)
    3) Demonology is still behind both and not getting any buffs.

    Also, if demonology and destruction had a mean to move while casting on a CD (like a 10 sec "cast while moving" spell), it would solve alot of dps troubles those 2 turret specs have. Its not even about raw +% , its about gameplay issues. Thats probably where blizzard 's sims fail, they don't take movement into account.
    Last edited by TerrisT; 2021-02-12 at 12:43 PM.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by TerrisT View Post
    Your maths need a bit of correcting.

    1) MR Nerf is not live, it's on PTR
    2) AFTER the 5% buff, aff is still 20% ahead of destro. A 8% nerf will still place aff 12% ahead of destro. (check wlogs)
    3) Demonology is still behind both and not getting any buffs.

    Also, if demonology and destruction had a mean to move while casting on a CD (like a 10 sec "cast while moving" spell), it would solve alot of dps troubles those 2 turret specs have. Its not even about raw +% , its about gameplay issues. Thats probably where blizzard 's sims fail, they don't take movement into account.
    last time I had a look at warcraftlogs, destro was ~15% behind in dps. But I think this depends on percentile, boss and many other factors. It's not that important anyway. Yeah, demo is sadly still untouched ):

    I switched away from warlock by now anyway. Didn't enjoy affi and the two others specs were just too bad.

    I don't think blizzard wants to balance the specs correct anyway. By rotating the 'strongest' spec of each class they generate content, because many players enjoy switching their spec and play something else for some weeks. Some players even reroll the whole class.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Inukashi View Post
    last time I had a look at warcraftlogs, destro was ~15% behind in dps. But I think this depends on percentile, boss and many other factors. It's not that important anyway. Yeah, demo is sadly still untouched ):

    I switched away from warlock by now anyway. Didn't enjoy affi and the two others specs were just too bad.

    I don't think blizzard wants to balance the specs correct anyway. By rotating the 'strongest' spec of each class they generate content, because many players enjoy switching their spec and play something else for some weeks. Some players even reroll the whole class.
    Yeah if one of the spec "works", they are in no hurry to help the others. Been that way since the beginning. But it's very troubling that WoW has been out for 15 years and some lingering design problems are adressed in other classes/spec (mobility and utility), but not for warlocks, especially considering all their spec have undergone redesigns several times.

    I disagree that the other 2 specs are bad (in pve anyway). They are bad if you push Mythic raiding progress (which i don't).

    They are fine in heroic and mythic+, if you are ready to deal with the design issues i mentioned.
    Last edited by TerrisT; 2021-02-12 at 01:17 PM.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Th3Scourge View Post
    They do scale with gear. The point of noting that players gear at that point in time is to highlight that the spec is strong and the player wasn't just overgearing the scenario.

    Meta is a perception by the community and perpetuated by opinions such as yours that then reinforce the current meta. You literally said:
    So yeah, you did say they only pick meta.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Except data proves you wrong.

    The data that you yourself mentioned. It's not a MAY. It's an overwhelming difference. If people have the choice between a fire mage or a aff lock at similar ilvls/r.io, they'd pick the mage. It's not an argument. Of course warlocks do keys though overall, but it doesn't change that they're not some meta pick. And pointing out that this nerf is going to hurt m+ isn't saying that warlock NEEDS to be meta, it's just the fact that warlock already brings nearly nothing to M+, and they're already NOT meta, so nerfing them is just hurting them further in that regards.
    Read everything I say, don't strawman and nitpick things out of context.

    I said repeatedly time and time again, when you have the option to pick between a mage or a warlock, people will grab the mage if they're similar. And the same is true for an MM hunter, or a boomkin.

    If it's like a 200 ilvl mage with 450 io compared to a 215 lock with 900io? Of course they'd grab the lock instead. But that's a rare situation that most likely isn't going to happen.

    Again, strawmen don't prove your argument. You're ignoring that the context of that post was a retort to your "You don't bring locks for pack damage..." because that was an absolutely silly way to justify the situation. Hence my response of "yeah, you just don't bring them at all".

    I've said several times since then that locks are obviously brought to keys, but it is in no way close to other casters. Especially if you factor in all 3 lock specs. And now, they're nerfing the strongest spec locks had for M+ which STILL wasn't considered meta, just "solid". While also appearing to nerf the Kyrian dot for...whatever reason, which is a decent choice for destro/demo actually.
    Last edited by Jester Joe; 2021-02-12 at 02:44 PM.

  10. #50
    Bloodsail Admiral Uzkin's Avatar
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    Warlocks be like:


    And Blizzard is like:
    "LEt'S nErF AFFliCtIon!"

    Well, I guess there still was 1 warlock present for every 10 mages in the high-level m+ scene. The upcoming affliction nerf should fix this and remove warlock entirely from high keys, as intended by Blizzard.

  11. #51
    Warlocks are weak in mythics and PvP. A MR nerf hurts them more in mythics and PvP than, say, a 5% overall nerf would. If the intention is to curtail Warlocks in raids, a MR nerf is a poor way to go about it. If the intention is to clean up a design space, there should be compensatory buffs in other areas, especially considering how Affliction performs outside of raids. If the intention is purely to balance raids, it's suspect that other high performing specs aren't receiving nerfs as well. Boomkins are performing well in PvP, mythics, and raids and are receiving a buff to Convoke.

    Still, why in the world is Scouring Tithe receiving a nerf whatsoever? It really brings Blizzard's metrics into question in the first place.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Uzkin View Post
    Warlocks be like:


    And Blizzard is like:
    "LEt'S nErF AFFliCtIon!"

    Well, I guess there still was 1 warlock present for every 10 mages in the high-level m+ scene. The upcoming affliction nerf should fix this and remove warlock entirely from high keys, as intended by Blizzard.
    Affliction is a extremely good scaling spec that alteady tops the metres. They are even on pure st fights about 10% ahead of most melees. And their scaling is insane. Mastery was too strong simply.

    M+ isnt that bad. But in a world with boomkins, fire mages and hunters.... being upper third isnt enough. Part of the problem is perception.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Aurosh View Post
    Affliction is a extremely good scaling spec that alteady tops the metres. They are even on pure st fights about 10% ahead of most melees. And their scaling is insane. Mastery was too strong simply.

    M+ isnt that bad. But in a world with boomkins, fire mages and hunters.... being upper third isnt enough. Part of the problem is perception.
    For What serve better scale if they will nerf us when we top the meters?

  14. #54
    Good news guys. MR nerf reverted in the latest PTR.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by TerrisT View Post
    2) AFTER the 5% buff, aff is still 20% ahead of destro. A 8% nerf will still place aff 12% ahead of destro. (check wlogs)
    Not for nothing, but "check wlogs" is not a good argument. It's apples and oranges, because the best players with the best gear are playing Aff, not Destro. Let them play and gear for Destro and then I'll be more interested to see what wlogs says.

    And seriously, of all the things they could nerf, why punish the 6 warlocks playing Kyrian?

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Ham on Rye View Post
    And seriously, of all the things they could nerf, why punish the 6 warlocks playing Kyrian?
    There are dozens of us. Dozens.

    But seriously, I did pick Kyrian because I planned to focus on Aff's single-target strength and with Scouring being a perma-dot it looked like the best choice for Malefic Rapture synergy. But with all the highest-parsing Afflocks being Night Fae anyway I don't get why there's the Tithe nerf.
    I am the one who knocks ... because I need your permission to enter.

  17. #57
    Blizzard hates warlocks. We had too much fun in MoP and to some extent in WoD and thus we must suffer for it.

  18. #58
    Bloodsail Admiral Uzkin's Avatar
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    Happy to see the MR nerf reverted in PTR, it would've made affliction non-viable in high keys. Warlock is one of the weaker m+ classes as it is -- if anything, buffs (rather than heavy nerfs) are needed.

    Shadow's Embrace is the proper tuning knob for single-target raid dps. Drop it FROM max. 3 stacks at 3%/stack TO max. 1 stack at 3-4%/stack. Done.

  19. #59
    I wonder if Seed of Corruption spreads embrace as well....but with that said the combo of embrace/conduit is pretty insane.

    Warlock class atm has some interesting % modifies that can go out of control next tier.
    Embrace = 9% + Conduit = 13%~
    UA = 10%
    Haunt = 10%~

    These 3 alone just gives us a 33% increase damage to primary target

    They do need to figure something out here. Next tier we will have even more budget for our secondary, and our haste could sit around 25-28% with 90%+ Mastery and 20% Crit. + God lets assume 2 legendary equip

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Narwhalosh Whalescream View Post
    Blizzard hates warlocks. We had too much fun in MoP and to some extent in WoD and thus we must suffer for it.
    If they "hate" us, why did we have fun ?

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