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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    I mean if you browsed the forums at any regularity, it was just filled with people complaining about RNG loot in the form of WF/TF and random sockets appearing on gear. That feedback was everywhere, and I'm sure they cross referenced it even with the Classic version of the game where people were "happy" that when loot dropped, you could essentially be done for that tier.

    This is literally why they experimented with corruption in 8.3, and the inherent corruption problems aside (prior to deterministic ways of getting it a few months in) it wasn't a bad system. Was it perfect? No, but I'd assure you if it launched with the design that was iterated on months later, people probably would've looked back on it far more positively.

    The feedback was certainly there. Let loot be loot was fairly popular statement amongst the community and forum goers, so it's obvious where they got the feedback from. Getting something to drop, and not having to worry about sockets or the iLvL getting boosted randomly was superior to a lot of people. With that approach, it's natural that they dial back loot acquisition some, but one could argue (and it's certainly being argued everywhere a few weeks after Shadowlands release), that they might have went a bit too far dialing it back on the PvE side of things.

    It's funny because there was loads of bitching and moaning about the 550 conquest cap in PvP prior to release, saying that it's not enough and that you should be able to raise the cap. Post launch, how much bitching and moaning do you see about acquiring gear from PvP? Zero. Why? Because it just works, and is arguably the best gearing system in PvP (and maybe all of WoW) has ever been. You basically get the stats you want (for the most part), you don't really have to raid and there's built in catch up mechanics if you decide to start playing a new character or take a break down the road for a few weeks.

    For a first look the valor point changes look wonderful, and they even hinted at giving raiders some love as well. Given that Blizzcon event is less than 10 days away and the 0.5 patch just launched, I'm going to assume that more details are going to arise very soon about what to look for coming in about a month for the 0.5 patch, and a few months for the .1 patch.

    I normally wouldn't give credit, but compared to Legion and BFA (especially BFA) they aren't just sitting on their hands waiting to completely overhaul core aspects of the game until the final fucking patch. It took about a year in BFA for them to actually fix a lot of the dungeons for M+, and they've iterated on the ones in Shadowlands several times in the first couple months of the game. Instead of just a wet fart of class changes after the first week of heroic, we've gotten several tuning passes in both PvP/PvE in the first couple months, which is sort of uncommon in the grand scheme of things. The 0.5 patch actually looks promising from a preliminary glance because that's normally the type of systems change we get to experience either half way through an expansion, or at the very last patch (look how long it took them to fix legendary items in Legion?).
    The people that love the current PvP gearing system and the proposed mythic+ valor system the most are:

    Boosters

    Blizz for token $$

    Since both of these systems only take a 1 time effort for getting a rating/achievement and then you can upgrade in an unrelated system it’s been a booster and WoW token sellers paradise.

  2. #202
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    Not sure.

    Part of me likes vendor systems with deterministic upgrades, and other parts of me doesn't. It feels a little cheap in an RPG to just go to a vendor and just buy what you want and move on I guess?

    I would guess in Mythic dungeons that if they just put everything on a vendor and you only ran them for anima (lol) and valor points that a good majority of the player base would dislike zero items physically dropping. You could extend that line of thinking to the raid content as well. I know a few people who actually hate personal loot for the sole reason they can't loot the boss after it dies and see several items there for the raid leader to hand out afterwards. To him, the "magic" is lost when stuff just automatically goes to peoples inventories and he can't see all of the shiny shit on the corpse/chest.

    Not saying you're wrong in that line of thinking though, and I know some people would prefer everything to be deterministic with zero RNG involved. Systems in MoP and WoD where you got the physical drop and used currencies to upgrade them (like valor in 9.0.5) are pretty good systems (IMO).

    I honestly think a lot of the raid loot complaints are going to be solved if they add one additional piece of loot to the loot tables, cut back on BoE drops (4 is way too many), and just add tier sets back into the game. Having tier sets back makes raiding fairly valuable IMO and worth the chase. How PvP is done right now would still make it unlikely that people would feel required to raid, and if that became a problem they could just disable the set bonuses in BG/Arena. While people who primarily M+ might feel ripped off at such a suggestion, there's still the possibility of adding a tier above 15 and adding mini-sets in the dungeon content virtue of new dungeons being added in future content.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    The people that love the current PvP gearing system and the proposed mythic+ valor system the most are:

    Boosters

    Blizz for token $$

    Since both of these systems only take a 1 time effort for getting a rating/achievement and then you can upgrade in an unrelated system it’s been a booster and WoW token sellers paradise.
    I don't disagree entirely with your assessment, but there are still plenty of players (like myself) who primarily PvP and M+, who never get boosted and can't be bothered to boost for gold in game.

    Controversial opinion for sure, but I'm not a fan of sitting on achievement plateaus or rating requirements for an entire season and just upgrading your gear. PvP at the moment is flooded with gladiators and high ranked players even in the 1600+ bracket, boosting players to certain thresholds so they can sit on that rating while the slowly grind honor in a different bracket/BGs. I can't be the only one that notices an influx of players in these brackets compared to past seasons.

    It doesn't solve everything but a system where it would require a handful of wins at that bracket on each reset (or even successfully completed keys) would sort of fix that problem. People could still buy these keys or ratings, but it's far more cost prohibitive if you have to go back to your dealer (lol) every single week in order to get your fix of arena wins or key carries done. Some people are too rich for it to matter and are just going to pay, for others it's way too costly and would likely cut boosting a great deal.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Not sure.

    Part of me likes vendor systems with deterministic upgrades, and other parts of me doesn't. It feels a little cheap in an RPG to just go to a vendor and just buy what you want and move on I guess?

    I would guess in Mythic dungeons that if they just put everything on a vendor and you only ran them for anima (lol) and valor points that a good majority of the player base would dislike zero items physically dropping. You could extend that line of thinking to the raid content as well. I know a few people who actually hate personal loot for the sole reason they can't loot the boss after it dies and see several items there for the raid leader to hand out afterwards. To him, the "magic" is lost when stuff just automatically goes to peoples inventories and he can't see all of the shiny shit on the corpse/chest.

    Not saying you're wrong in that line of thinking though, and I know some people would prefer everything to be deterministic with zero RNG involved. Systems in MoP and WoD where you got the physical drop and used currencies to upgrade them (like valor in 9.0.5) are pretty good systems (IMO).

    I honestly think a lot of the raid loot complaints are going to be solved if they add one additional piece of loot to the loot tables, cut back on BoE drops (4 is way too many), and just add tier sets back into the game. Having tier sets back makes raiding fairly valuable IMO and worth the chase. How PvP is done right now would still make it unlikely that people would feel required to raid, and if that became a problem they could just disable the set bonuses in BG/Arena. While people who primarily M+ might feel ripped off at such a suggestion, there's still the possibility of adding a tier above 15 and adding mini-sets in the dungeon content virtue of new dungeons being added in future content.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I don't disagree entirely with your assessment, but there are still plenty of players (like myself) who primarily PvP and M+, who never get boosted and can't be bothered to boost for gold in game.

    Controversial opinion for sure, but I'm not a fan of sitting on achievement plateaus or rating requirements for an entire season and just upgrading your gear. PvP at the moment is flooded with gladiators and high ranked players even in the 1600+ bracket, boosting players to certain thresholds so they can sit on that rating while the slowly grind honor in a different bracket/BGs. I can't be the only one that notices an influx of players in these brackets compared to past seasons.

    It doesn't solve everything but a system where it would require a handful of wins at that bracket on each reset (or even successfully completed keys) would sort of fix that problem. People could still buy these keys or ratings, but it's far more cost prohibitive if you have to go back to your dealer (lol) every single week in order to get your fix of arena wins or key carries done. Some people are too rich for it to matter and are just going to pay, for others it's way too costly and would likely cut boosting a great deal.
    Yeah, the issue I have is you have a 1 time boost of rating/mythic+ achievement and then week in and week out you reap the benefits in upgrades while not partaking in the more challenging content anymore.

    IMO they should make it so you need to play games/time keys at the higher ratings/levels weekly to take advantage of the upgrades.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Baroclinic View Post
    ROTFLOL, this. Also the timewalking Raid drops that later for the bat to the face to match.

    I think the real problem is the $$$ for them.
    at least a couple people seem to understand what i'm saying. for some reason a bunch of people are hung on the fact that the loot nerfs were 'bug fixes'. for some reason they think because it was a bug fix, that means blizz don't have the power to change the amount of loot drops per boss. sometimes i wish i was so ignorant. i might not have my depression if i was.

  5. #205
    This isnt a bad response, you are just looking for a reason to complain.

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by james2400 View Post
    Nothing wrong with slowly working towards a reward instead of praying that it drops, in Wrath the most successful expansion of all time you could buy everything on vendors with badges of valor/justice by doing the content.
    Wrath really wasn't the most successful. It had already started losing subs. It was only the late approval in China literally 4-5 months before Cata hit that boosted the numbers back up. Otherwise we would've easily seen the sub losses prior to Cata. Was it the most fun? By far. Though I really thought MOP was a blast too.

    Btw it was the end of BC where you could buy raid equivalent loot. Black Temple loot on vendors basically. Sunwell really didn't count.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aggressive View Post
    Well they need to come up with a solution quickly. Cause believe it or not, no matter what the wow fanboys say, NOT everyone is down with this shit like taking 2 months just to get a weapon at and above iLvL 200. Things like that is what can push a person away. And not everyone wants to hop into PvP just to get gear.
    As opposed to going an entire raid tier (6 months) and never getting your weapon drop? Yes that has happened to tons of players including myself in various tiers. PVP and M+ exists to fill in those gaps where in the past there was nothing you could do but raid again the following week. If that extra content doesn't interest you then you're no worse off than before.
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  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    The people that love the current PvP gearing system and the proposed mythic+ valor system the most are:

    Boosters

    Blizz for token $$

    Since both of these systems only take a 1 time effort for getting a rating/achievement and then you can upgrade in an unrelated system it’s been a booster and WoW token sellers paradise.
    You forgot about the people who aren't terrible at everything and just go do a mythic+ for themselves.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Nah nah, see... I live by one simple creed: You might catch more flies with honey, but to catch honeys you gotta be fly.

  8. #208
    Calling this kind of back and forth "pathetic" is some next level shit. I feel like having the absolute best gear from m+ be between heroic and mythic is great (still dont understand why pvp goes higher though).

    The only thing i'm a bit miffed about in the raids is targetting certain items (like tank trinkets for example), i'd like to see increased rewards on killing a boss for the very first time. Let's say there could be a quest for inerva and her wing, council and their wing and Denathrius and the two bosses before. One of the quests could reward a targeted trinket from the raid, one weapon and the last one a piece of armor.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Zia Layn View Post
    This isnt a bad response, you are just looking for a reason to complain.
    It's a bad response because they quickly nerfed boss gear drop rates.

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucetia View Post
    Probably because Valor vendors shouldn't be the answer to everything. We don't need to have a vendor upgrade for every aspect of the game.

    There's also no point in blaming Ion. It'll always be whoever is in charge that it is there fault. It was Ghostcrawler at one point and Ion was going to save the day. Now Ion is the worst and the next person will save the day. Then that person will be the worst and then someone new will save it. It's a cycle that just repeats.
    Don’t forget Kalgan before GC lmao. I’ve been around long enough to remember that. TBC balance was because of that damned Kalgan!

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggressive View Post
    Well they need to come up with a solution quickly. Cause believe it or not, no matter what the wow fanboys say, NOT everyone is down with this shit like taking 2 months just to get a weapon at and above iLvL 200. Things like that is what can push a person away. And not everyone wants to hop into PvP just to get gear.
    I do think a solution should come with 9.1, yeah. They know there's a problem, delaying this to 9.1.5/9.2 will be a bit too late, we'll have one or two more raid tiers of this situation.

    Again, personally I don't think the solution has to be complicated at all. Increase drops to 4 per 20; it's not the 5 per 20 it used to be so it follows the "loot is loot" philosophy (which I'm not really on board with but is what it is), but it's still better, and if the issue persists slap bonus rolls on top of that.
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  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by oplawlz View Post
    You forgot about the people who aren't terrible at everything and just go do a mythic+ for themselves.
    Which is why the upgrades shouldn’t be based on a 1 time thing like it is for PvP (get rating and sit) and appears to be for mythic+ (time each key once).

    To be eligible to upgrade you should have to actually play games at the appropriate rating and time dungeons of the appropriate level each week.

  13. #213
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    Raid designs nowadays are better (mechanic wise) than ever before.. dont let nostalgia carry you away

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by october breeze View Post
    "static nature of raid loot tables complicates mid-tier solutions" !!

    Hahahha, this is some next-level lawyer bullshit talking right here!!
    You guys do realize that these kinds of responses make you look stupid?
    Intelligent linguistic isn't "lawyer bullshit", i'm sorry not everyone talks like your bar buddys.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyOne View Post
    You guys do realize that these kinds of responses make you look stupid?
    Intelligent linguistic isn't "lawyer bullshit", i'm sorry not everyone talks like your bar buddys.
    anti-intellectualism is a global plague

    OT: 9.1 will fix it

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Sluvs View Post
    No, that is a fraction of what leadership entails.

    Here is the problem that I have with your argument, you do not know what he refused, only what he approved(and only a fraction of that).
    You believe that he micromanages every little decision his team makes.
    But most of all, you have no clue of what and how he does, but pretend that you do, and you are completely unwilling to give the slight amount of credit to him.

    That is why when there is a WoW panel, while he can be there, he is not alone, there is a BUNCH of directors with him.

    So far he has shown to communicate with the community way more than other directors.
    He has shown that he listens and implements feedback.
    He has shown that he can own up to mistakes.
    He has shown that he tries to be honest.
    And he also has shownto have ambition and is not afraid to take risks.

    I don't know about you, but that sounds like a pretty good leader to me.
    I get your point and mostly agree but points 2. 3. 4. are simply untrue. Have you seen his many communication videos regarding bfa patches?
    For example the whole corruption mechanic? Or how azerite cost to reforge is a bad idea but they never changed it simply removing the cost, there was like a year after said comment where they could have done it.

    He does great damage control for people who play casually and do not understand the repercussions of many of the game's decisions through pr talk which is the epitome of dishonesty.


    We listened and wanted ilvl to matter again. So we are replacing tf (random ilvl upgrade) with random passive extra output.

    We replace random passive extra output
    With
    The same
    So ilvl matters.





    Btw admitting a mistake extremely slowly with beta feedback highlighting it in actual constructive posts from the greatest theorycrafters of the game, and creating problems only to solve them at the last tier is a very classic marketing tactic repeated over multiple tiers and years. That is not owning up to mistakes. Its abusing the fact no other good mmorpg exists that offers the same level of A+ production. Hope there was but none of the other pretty nice games are just up there yet.


    I accept he might be the face that receives all the burn, but i would never attribute all those qualities you listed.


    Btw covenant balancing is shit. If i play necro or fae as disc i lose 25%+ of my SS.
    Last edited by Popokolara; 2021-02-12 at 09:31 AM.

  17. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by dawawe View Post
    Why are you comparing ulduar tier to ICC. you could buy 251 gear and 264 gear with justice and valor tokens. At the time of ICC ulduar used triumph tokens which you could farm from doing any previous raid from the expansion. you could afk thru naxx and get enough triumph to get a 232 piece. At the time all raids were current you could buy equivalent gear to 25m from the vendors. and throughout the expansion new dungeons came out to drop items equal to the previous raid tier from 5 mans. And you have vault of archavon which also dropped tier gear from every tier.

    Comparing a final tier to a first tier is dumb anyways. at the time of Naxx we could buy Naxx level gear with tokens, get raid tier items from archavon, had higher amount of loot per boss drop, almost twice as many dungeons that also dropped tokens on heroic, and 4 raid difficulties. right now we have CN with with 7 less bosses than wraths first tier and dungeons that drop 1-2 pieces of gear per run instead of a piece per boss.
    Emblems of frost was what you used for ICC gear. And it was the base tier pieces (251) and 1 trinket and 1 other pieces IIRC (neck). It was also one of the most hated parts of wrath, forcing players to play every single day (you had to do the daily dungeon queue to get 2 emblems of frost) to do content which was not even remotely current or difficult (5man heroics) to farm the badges to buy your tier items for raid. Imagine the outrage now you forced raiders and high M+ to do a random heroic each and every day to get the gear they need to have to get the tier set upgraded on top of RNG getting the right token for your class and enough for your raid.

    When Wrath launched you could buy about 3-4 items from vendors for emblems, wrist and boots plus a ring or 2 and a sigil/totem/libram etc. The Libram/sigils were added as the rng level of getting the right spec librams was an absolute pain. So in total you could buy 2 armor slots plus a ring (or 2 in some cases) and a sigil which is now no longer a slot, plus a world boss which required a world PvP win which was then reliant on your faction being able to control Wintergrasp while you are on which dropped a possible 1-2 items you could use which.
    We now have World boss, WQ, LFR, M+, Mission table, PvP items which are usable. Ive gotten more slots covered from mission tables/campaign quest and WQs than anyone could get from currencies in Wrath. Only difference is the ilvl is a little lower relatively, but far more slots and options instead.

    Archavon was a raid boss, we have a raid boss right now which drops above normal raid itemlevel aswell, not like thats some special source.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by marcusblood View Post
    https://twitter.com/WatcherDev/statu...26860723638274

    Continue to discuss the right approach for raiding and world bosses? We're 8 days from blizzcon, they've got nothing ready to show and this expansion's gearing has been a shitshow of RNG and timesinks with not much to show for it.

    Just bring back valor vendors for raiders. It's not that hard. Ion always tries to safe face while not reverting completely. This guy has done SO MUCH DAMAGE to the game by taking things away just to massage his ego.
    marcusblood's pathetic response to a tweet....

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Sluvs View Post
    Yep, sure, other people cared. And while it was a problem, I feel like it was blown out of proportion, mainly because the hardcore players got them all in no time, and, unlees you were a fire mage or boomkin, it was not as huge deal as people made it out to be.

    But even with this blemish, that I can see it as a problem, Legion was amazing. And if something is amazing with such a glaring issue, then give credit where credit is due.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Of course it matters. It literally was not working as intended. You can argue it was better before, but from their PoV they fixed a bug, not reviewed the reward system of a raid.
    i told you it didn't matter. it seems blizz management decided to take their head out of their butt.

    https://www.bluetracker.gg/wow/topic...g-february-16/

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    3 items dropping is fine. Stop whining.
    apparently the majority of the game and management of blizz disagree with your sentiment.

    https://www.bluetracker.gg/wow/topic...g-february-16/

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    3 items dropping is fine. Stop whining.
    Just like that they backpedal and up the drop rate, proving it wasnt fine. You were wrong.

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