Do you think the Alliance and the Horde can ever forgive each other for past crimes?

[OwenBurton]

The Alliance and the Horde are currently in an uneasy state of armistice -- but there are still very serious unresolved issues.

The status of Ashenvale and Lordaeron remain unclear. Did the Horde withdraw entirely from Ashenvale? And if so, why are the kaldorei not living there? Is Lordaeron still occupied militarily by Alliance forces? Will either region become the future home of the kaldorei? And the Forsaken -- will Calia Menethil play a major role in Lordaeron's future? Will the Forsaken eventually accept her as their new leader? Will Turalyon accept her as Queen of Lordaeron? And will this allegiance to his kingdom eventually cause conflict with his loyalties to Anduin and Stormwind?

And Sylvanas while manipulating Saurfang for her own ends -- she is not entirely wrong in her arguments, the very fact the Horde marched against the night elves without hesitation, and the vast majority of continued to fight even long after the Burning of Teldrassil, indicates even back then, most Horde characters did not particularly care much about what happened to the kaldorei, and saw them as their mortal enemies, and neither did the Alliance see the Forsaken as worthy of sympathy:

“Time breaks every bond.” Sylvanas leaned across the table. Her words flew like arrows. “What do you believe? Will peace last five years or fifty?”

He leaned forward, too, his face inches away from hers. Neither blinked. “What I believe doesn’t matter, Warchief. What do you believe?”

“I believe the exiles of Gilneas will never forgive the Horde for driving them away. I believe the living humans of Lordaeron think it is blasphemy that my people still hold their city. I believe the ancient divide between our allies in Silvermoon and their kin in Darnassus is not easily mended.” There was a smile on Sylvanas’s face. It was not a pleasant one.

“I believe the Darkspear tribe hasn’t forgotten who drove them from their islands,” she continued. “I believe every orc your age remembers being imprisoned for years in filthy camps, wallowing in despair and surviving on human scraps. I believe every human remembers the tales of the terrible Horde that caused so much destruction in its first invasion, and I believe they blame every orc for that, no matter what your people have done to redeem yourselves. And I remember very well that I and my first Forsaken were once loyal Alliance citizens. We died for that banner, and our reward was to be hunted as vermin. I believe that there will be no permanent peace with the Alliance—not unless we win it on the battlefield on our terms. And believing that, answer this, Saurfang: what use is delaying the inevitable?”

And of course, the night elves, and presumably most night elf players, will very probably never be able to forget or forgive this:

Saurfang heard screams. The heat reached across the water, along with the terrible smell of an uncontrolled wildfire. The captured night elves on Darkshore shrieked and wailed, now begging and pleading for the Horde to rush into the tree, to save their families from certain death.

The sounds washed together, a symphony of horrors.

Men, women, children … the fire would not care. Fire had no honor, no reason, only the urge to consume until there was nothing left.

Everyone still in Darnassus would die.

And with them, every hope the Horde had of winning a clean war against the Alliance. Teldrassil was supposed to be the wedge that would destroy Stormwind. Now, it would be the Alliance’s rallying cry until every nation of the Horde was rent to dust.

Anduin Wrynn would declare war immediately—and every one of his allies would answer his call. The Alliance would stop at nothing in their search for vengeance.

“There is no honor in this!” he roared at Sylvanas.

She finally turned away from the World Tree. Her eyes were steady, the anger within them gone. What was left in its place? Emptiness? Satisfaction? Saurfang couldn’t read her now. Maybe he never could.

“They will come for us now. All of them!” he said.

“I know.” She was calm, as though nothing were wrong. “They will attack the Undercity in retaliation. You will need to plan our defenses. Begin evacuating my people.”

He struggled to form words. Finally, pure hatred made him spit out a condemnation. “You have damned the Horde for a thousand generations. All of us. And for what? For what?”

Her expression didn’t waver. “This was your battle. Your strategy. And your failure. Darnassus was never the prize. It was a wedge that would split the Alliance apart. It was the weapon that would destroy hope. And you, my master strategist, gave that up to spare an enemy you defeated. I have taken it back. When they come for us, they will do so in pain, not in glory. That may be our only chance at victory now.”

Queen Talanji and her lingering grievances against Jaina Proudmoore and the other Kul Tirans -- she has not forgotten her father's death. And the Zandalari still want Alliance blood for what happened to their king.

“Our people can’t stay in Orgrimmar forever,” Lilian replied, at last finding her tongue. Once she had sat down and unburdened herself of her pack, she appeared more at ease. Her blue eyes flashed brighter as she straightened her back and removed her leather cloak. “It’s too hot. We prefer the shadows and the damp. Perhaps in time the ruins of Lordaeron can be reclaimed and our home there restored. Things are a little less heated with the armistice, but that doesn’t mean Alliance ships are happy to see our flags at sea.”

“Better to be careful in these tense times,” Calia added softly. “Lest we cause a diplomatic incident.” Then she shrugged, weary, and removed her sun-faded blue shawl, folding it neatly. “I am sure if we were intercepted, Derek Proudmoore could intervene on our—”

“The Proudmoores can do nothing for us.”

Just when Thrall felt the thrum of nerves in the room dissipating, the young Zandalari queen was on her feet, icily rigid. Talanji slashed her hand through the air, her many golden piercings twinkling softly as she did, her tall, jewel-encrusted headdress casting a looming shadow that reached across the hold and flickered in the firelight.

Leather squeaked and iron jangled as the murmurs and shifting began. Behind him, Thrall heard his page, Zekhan, blow out a long breath.

“The Horde could not stop the attack on Zandalar, a failure I took in stride, believing that when we had recovered, we could take the fight to the Alliance, to the Proudmoores,” Talanji continued, her voice shaking with emotion. “Peace with the Alliance means peace with the Proudmoores, with Jaina. I was foolish to believe my people would have their revenge.”

Thrall squeezed the bridge of his nose. And it had all been going so smoothly. Perhaps he should have expected this. They were all so different, these assembled leaders, with conflicting ideas on what it meant to be part of the Horde, and no doubt their visions of the future varied as well. The tide of uneasy voices in the room began to crest.

Before he could offer something mollifying to the new queen, Lilian was quick to respond. “Derek is one of us now. You will have to accept that.”

Talanji snarled, taking a single menacing step toward the Forsaken leader. “I have to accept nothing. You need me, and I had thought we had need of the Horde; now I see you will not help us seek justice for the siege of Zuldazar.”

Nor is Tyrande willing to forgive the Horde:

Tyrande uncrossed her legs and sat back on the bench, shaking off her husband's hand with a tight grimace.

And then, all at once, she cared very much to speak.

“When you have washed the bodies of a thousand kaldorei burned and broken, when you have fallen to your knees and kissed the feet of a thousand mourning souls, when you look into their eyes and tell them ‘our Horde has changed’ and they believe you, only then will I accept your apology and treat you as my equal.” Tyrande’s voice, edged as steel, pulled the air out of the clearing. “My brethren here may be willing to entertain your empty pledges of justice and aid, but I know better. I have learned better.”

Then she stood, and Thrall worried that the moon might truly fall from the heavens and crush them at Tyrande's command. Her eyes, though black, somehow glowed, Elune's fury blazing colder and brighter along her skin with each word. The glade itself grew gray and almost dead, as if by her will she had sapped the life out of everything around them, withering the trees and obliterating the flowers and grass to dust.

“How many orphans did your Horde create that day?” Tyrande sliced the flat of her hand diagonally across her body. “Those children will grow, they will wake each morning tasting ash, and one day they will come for you. Oh, they will come for you, and they will make you taste that same ash, and then you will know their justice.” She sat down again, as if winded. Light returned to the clearing, and the plants around them were green and vibrant once more.

“Quickly,” Yukha muttered, trying to gather them. “We must go. This was a mistake; I should not have brought you here.”

Baine and Calia allowed Yukha to corral them back toward the path of glittering solid water. Thrall remained, only taking slow, careful steps, never showing Tyrande his back. For his trouble, Tyrande directed her final words to him and only him.

“You will find that justice less sweet than the sorry excuse for punishment you faced, and when this justice comes, there will be no armistice to save you.”

I always felt the Fourth War was ended very abruptly. It seemed unrealistic that most Alliance and Horde leaders just decided to stop fighting -- even without Sylvanas, they had tons of bitter grudges and grievances against each other, even before the Battle for Azeroth began. I understand Jaina and Thrall respect each other -- and are friends again, but why would that affect most Alliance and Horde members? The war missions had the Alliance and Horde fighting across the span of two continents repeatedly, did they just suddenly stop after Sylvanas left them? Perhaps most Alliance and Horde leaders are pro-armistice -- but it seems all but impossible that most of their populaces are pro-armistice as well. The entire premise, at least from the short stories and the Warbringers shorts, was that this conflict was unforgivable, basically, and would lead to permanent changes, and some even argued it would end the faction system altogether -- but now, all of that seems to have been swept away, the expansion almost ending in a whimper instead of a bang. Understandably, of course, because of Shadowlands -- but I still believe the armistice is too honestly unrealistic, especially compared in a real world context.

I mean, realistically, if Anduin's ranks were nearly depleted even before he released Saurfang from the Stockades, most families probably lost their family members during the conflict; I'm sure for example, most soldiers who perished had wives and children back home, families who were waiting for them to return to Stormwind and Orgrimmar, but they never did. It is not just the kaldorei who were orphaned en masse; almost EVERY race is now filled with orphans. They hate and loathe each other more than ever before, at the end of the day, Teldrassil and Lordaeron are still destroyed, and the kaldorei and the Forsaken are without a permanent settlement. I don't believe that Tyrande should pursue her vengeance as it leads to insanity, or the Zandalari for that matter -- but neither do the issues and problems between the factions seem anywhere near adequately resolved.

Was Sylvanas right in her arguments? Is real, lasting peace truly impossible, and conflict inevitable, until one faction is broken or destroyed? Do you think the Alliance and Horde can eventually forgive each for the past? Or will they remain forever enemies? Would you be willing, here and now, to forgive the opposite faction?

[geco]

The Kaldorei taught Druidism to the Horde. They traded wood, gave them territories and saved the life of one of their races (we can say two if we add W3).
And despite all this the Horde set fire to Teldrazzil, when it had already surrendered and no PC from the Horde seemed to bother in the least this except Barock.

This is how the Horde treats those who try to lend a hand. Imagine how he is going to treat the races that enslaved them.

On the side of the Alliance. Teldrazzil has just started and the Kaldorei live longer than the time of WoW. So not a generation is going to pass before WoW ends.

Peace is not impossible.
The peace of Anduin and Baien that leaves in peace because it is "good" is what is impossible.

[VladlTutushkin]

No. Its insane and unfeasible after BfA. Maybe Stormwind humans can forgive the horde, or rather Anduin can and his direct subjects will comply. But Alliance as a whole should see the horde as a worst existential threat they ever faced.

[Syegfryed]

No, and they should not, because the game is about beating the shit out of each other, no matter if it make sense or is justified

[lolmmofuture]

lol, the way they make up and fight again over and over makes no sense lorewise ,and its just a fking joke lol

[Progenitor Aquarius]

I'm neutral when it comes to faction politics. I hope they will. It's always nice to see both factions working together to fight the threads to Azeroth

[Kumorii]

For that to be possible they need to change the leaders... new generations makes it easier to look past since most people don't punish others for their parents sins. This also requires time however.

Personally I'm not for the unifaction or peace forever solution... It's better if it goes up and down.

[Aucald]

Can they? Yes. Will they? Mostly likely not, no.

[Aphrel]

The alliance ahs forgiven the horde a bunch of times, and every time the horde comes back and shoves it right up the arse. Im starting to think the alliance likes it that way...

Blizz favores the horde, not only in lore but ingame aswell...

During two years of allys getting ganked by hordes in bfa nothing happens.

But two weeks of shadowlands where allys were ganking hordes and oh... we must help these poor weak hordes... lets place a sanctuary here, and a lingering invisiblity buff and honorless buff.

Hmm, that wasnt enough, lets just manipulate numbers so that allys doesnt get the overwhelming odds quest anymore...

[Zuben]

Considering the Horde was once defeated and broken, yet rose again mightier than ever, I don't think the hostilities can end with half-measures. Feels like it requires either complete dedication to peace or complete annihilation of one side. BFA showed us Blizzard can force things no matter how unrealistic they are, but I still say it's healthier for us to theorize in good faith rather than be pessimistic about it. One has to keep in mind the blood elves at large have forgiven the orcs and have formed friendships that rally them behind the same banner against any enemy, even the Alliance. Peace is possible in theory, though perhaps only bit by bit. I doubt we'll see complete peace during the franchise's lifetime.

[Darknessvamp]

The only way I see it being feasible is if you wipe out all races current leaders. Then it'll be a gamble if the populace of each race continue the faction conflict in addition to their racial grudges.

[VinceVega]

How the hell yould the alliance EVER forgive that? I get why peace is a neccesary end... but forgive? How? The horde helped sylvannas. No one was ever responsibil for it.
They destroyed a capital city (2 if we are totally honest here) and commited genocide.

[VladlTutushkin]

How the hell yould the alliance EVER forgive that? I get why peace is a neccesary end... but forgive? How? The horde helped sylvannas. No one was ever responsibil for it.
They destroyed a capital city (2 if we are totally honest here) and commited genocide.

Anduin already forgave them on our behest and also condemned Tyrande for wanting some vengeance/payback.

Well... Hope he really gets his ass agonised in the Maw for that. I have zero respect for this waste of Varian’s sperm.

[geco]

How the hell yould the alliance EVER forgive that? I get why peace is a neccesary end... but forgive? How? The horde helped sylvannas. No one was ever responsibil for it.
They destroyed a capital city (2 if we are totally honest here) and commited genocide.

Peace is a necessary good.
As necessary as Humanity learn to survive without eating.

I mean, it is necessary and it would be very useful. But from what they show us it is impossible

[Darth-Piekus]

Not sure how it can happen for the Alliance to forgive the Horde. They came to Azeroth to slaughter their current owners and plunder it then tried to open portals which could have ripped Azeroth apart if the Alliance Expedition didn't close it in time. Then we have Garrosh trying to kill the Alliance during the battle in Northrend then used the Cataclysm to gain an advantage ,tried to use the Powers of an Old God to destroy Azeroth as we have seen in his utopian world and finally caused an invasion from another timeline of an Iron Horde which ended to another Legion invasion. In the end we have Sylvannas who conspired with Death to end all life on Azeroth and the Horde were helping her till that moment when she abandoned them. During that they caused the downfall of a World Tree to empower the Jailer and freeing an Old God. Sometimes I wonder if they have done more damage than all the villains to Azeroth combined.

[VladlTutushkin]

Not sure how it can happen for the Alliance to forgive the Horde. They came to Azeroth to slaughter their current owners and plunder it then tried to open portals which could have ripped Azeroth apart if the Alliance Expedition didn't close it in time. Then we have Garrosh trying to kill the Alliance during the battle in Northrend then used the Cataclysm to gain an advantage ,tried to use the Powers of an Old God to destroy Azeroth as we have seen in his utopian world and finally caused an invasion from another timeline of an Iron Horde which ended to another Legion invasion. In the end we have Sylvannas who conspired with Death to end all life on Azeroth and the Horde were helping her till that moment when she abandoned them. During that they caused the downfall of a World Tree to empower the Jailer and freeing an Old God. Sometimes I wonder if they have done more damage than all the villains to Azeroth combined.

They did. Ten char.

[mickybrighteyes]

nope, the factions won't forgive or forget because the people making them up will not wholly forgive or forget. Some parties might ignore things and move on but others will hold the anger till they die and often do something stupid to ignite fresh hatred among other groups.

Unless everyone starts acting more like gnomes with Draenei levels of understanding (you know except for when they make Draenei seemt o NOT have milenia long years of knowledge and experience so they can be an angry paladin barbarian for a scene)

[VladlTutushkin]

Only solution is to go full Rumbling on the Horde.

[Soon-TM]

Was Sylvanas right in her arguments? Is real, lasting peace truly impossible, and conflict inevitable, until one faction is broken or destroyed? Do you think the Alliance and Horde can eventually forgive each for the past? Or will they remain forever enemies? Would you be willing, here and now, to forgive the opposite faction?

Yes, she was - at least before they had her gargling on the Stupid Evil™ idiot ball for the entirety of BfA (and seemingly on what we have seen of SL so far, as well). I'm tired of the Disney type of narrative they are trying to push since BfA, where all the conflicts are solved by c0uRAgE and the power of friendship.

[geco]

Yes, she was - at least before they had her gargling on the Stupid Evil™ idiot ball for the entirety of BfA (and seemingly on what we have seen of SL so far, as well). I'm tired of the Disney type of narrative they are trying to push since BfA, where all the conflicts are solved by c0uRAgE and the power of friendship.

Which makes everything look more pathetic. It is that we had Drenor and Legion to make "peace".
And Blizzard decided to start another war because Potato and apart from being the war with the most casualties in the entire history of WoW.