View Poll Results: Do you think the Alliance and the Horde can ever forgive each other for past crimes?

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  • Yes, they can forgive each other

    42 24.56%
  • No, they can't forgive each other

    82 47.95%
  • Other / Not sure / It's complicated

    47 27.49%
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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    You just being insane now, you know? Like entirely retarded. Not even just “slightly crazy” but “absolutely fucked up in the head so much so that you may need a doctor”.
    I'm glad we're resorting to ad hominem AS WELL as advocating for genocide and warmongering as the only options to resolve conflict.

    I'm glad we've more sensible people in charge otherwise I shudder to think where this adherence to the eye for an eye mentalty would lead us.

    The only reasonable way to have peace is to decimate eachother, hold on to grudges and adhere to old traditions, of course how could I not see, the Night Elves return to their ancestral homeland and kick the orcs out which they'll of course accept, they'll leave for good and never covet the territory they just owned again NOT TO MENTION they won't ever want vengenace for being kicked out.

    All in all the perpetual cycle of violence stops and everyone lives happily ever after.

    I hope you're aware that that was sarcasm.

    I'm not saying I expect anyone to abandon their ancestral homeland, but when you've had border skirmishes for 30 years leading to full blown war on more than one occasion perhaps it's best, when you CAN AND HAVE TO pick a new home to avoid settling in a place that'll just cause border skirmishes to continue.

    But I mean what do I know, apparently stubbornly standing your ground until you tear eachother apart simply because of "muh homeland" is a far more reasonable approach.
    Last edited by LarryFromHumanResources; 2021-03-04 at 04:43 AM.
    Corporate wishes everyone a happy new year

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Dellis0991 View Post
    The Alliance punished themselves, Genn lost his kingdom, his son. The dwarves been punishing themselves since the 3 hammer war, the gnomes have fucked themselves twice over, the night elves been fucking themselves since the war of the ancients, the humans since after Thoradin walked away have shot themselves in foot repeatedly because apparently a bloodthirsty barbarian had better functioning brain than the whole collective of humanity. Draenei got fucked because they are draenei.
    That's some creative rewriting of the lore. I can only stare in wonder and be bewildered as to where you came up with such...imagination.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LarryFromHumanResources View Post
    The only reasonable way to have peace is to decimate eachother, of course how could I not see.
    How could you not see? Teldrassil burned brightly.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    How could you not see? Teldrassil burned brightly.
    Yep, and hostilities ceased after that, noone ever wants vengeance after they've been beaten
    Last edited by LarryFromHumanResources; 2021-03-04 at 04:53 AM.
    Corporate wishes everyone a happy new year

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by LarryFromHumanResources View Post
    I'm glad we're resorting to ad hominem AS WELL as advocating for genocide and warmongering as the only options to resolve conflict.

    I'm glad we've more sensible people in charge otherwise I shudder to think where this adherence to the eye for an eye mentalty would lead us.

    The only reasonable way to have peace is to decimate eachother, hold on to grudges and adhere to old traditions, of course how could I not see, the Night Elves return to their ancestral homeland and kick the orcs out which they'll of course accept, they'll leave for good and never covet the territory they just owned again NOT TO MENTION they won't ever want vengenace for being kicked out.

    All in all the perpetual cycle of violence stops and everyone lives happily ever after.

    I hope you're aware that that was sarcasm.

    I'm not saying I expect anyone to abandon their ancestral homeland, but when you've had border skirmishes for 30 years leading to full blown war on more than one occasion perhaps it's best, when you CAN AND HAVE TO pick a new home to avoid settling in a place that'll just cause border skirmishes to continue.

    But I mean what do I know, apparently stubbornly standing your ground until you tear eachother apart simply because of "muh homeland" is a far more reasonable approach.
    Because they ALREADY TRIED IT AND IT FAILED ENTIRELY. When night elves handed horde all the rights to Azshara to both provide them with resources and remove the tension from the region it didnt helped them secure peace after all when horde invaded their land again.

    Also in real life we have peace in the world without countries moving away from one another.

    Did russians moved to Australia when they got repeatedly invaded by various european countries? No. And yet there is peace now.

    If horde respects their own fucken signed treaty and leaves Ashenvale they will not be sacrificing anything or being humiliated since they agreed to leave it anyway after MoP forever in exchange for night elves leaving Azshara forever. Fair deal all in all.

    And by YOUR OWN LOGIC why orcs and other horde races cant move to somewhere else? Rebuild Orgrimmar in another zone. Like Feralas for example or Un’Goro crater? Both zones have lots of wood and no real population. There is one fortress in Feralas but its not hard to move away from there since its not a “settlement” but just a military base.
    Last edited by VladlTutushkin; 2021-03-04 at 05:40 AM.

  5. #205
    I am Murloc! Dellis0991's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    That's some creative rewriting of the lore. I can only stare in wonder and be bewildered as to where you came up with such...imagination.

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    How could you not see? Teldrassil burned brightly.
    Creative rewriting? I think not, the Alliance has individually and collectively shot themselves in the foot many times and the Horde...well they always been a train wreck so I don't expect much from them to try to right wrongs. Fact is the lost they took was because pride or greed (not counting the the AvH conflicts).

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Except by Anduin's own advice all he did with Genn in reaction to him violating his orders was giving him a stern talk. That's not a punishment by any stretch of the word. Especially once you put it in context of high treason and crimes against peace. Especially^2 if you put it in the additional context of Anduin supposedly being oh, so much in favor of peace and preserving it.
    I'm not sure how rebuking someone is not a punishment. It is an action brought about due to disapproval of the target's actions. It is by its nature undesirable to go through. Ergo, it is a punishment. Should there have been a more severe punishment? Probably. Would a more severe punishment have changed anything? No. If Anduin had executed Genn, for instance, Sylvanas' plans wouldn't have changed, and he'd have lost the Gilnean support (at the least). But I'm curious, what punishment do you feel would be appropriate for Anduin to administer?

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Dellis0991 View Post
    Creative rewriting? I think not, the Alliance has individually and collectively shot themselves in the foot many times .
    By showing mercy and tolerance for actions that justified swift retaliation.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    Genn, Jaina, and Vereesa are yet to be held accountable for their crimes
    Didn't we just rescue Jaina from Thros where she was sentenced for her crimes? And I have no clue what crime you're talking about regarding Vereesa.

  9. #209
    I am Murloc! Dellis0991's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    By showing mercy and tolerance for actions that justified swift retaliation.
    ^Ok true enough.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by LarryFromHumanResources View Post
    Yep, and hostilities ceased after that, noone ever wants vengeance after they've been beaten
    No. That's your mentality; take a beating and just lie there. Let your home get destroyed and your people murdered...and you hoping for a chance to run away...for what? Rebuild...so they can take that from you with an obligatory beat down..rinse and repeat.
    You getting your ass kicked repeatedly only says you aren't deserving of keeping anything.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Araevin View Post
    What brings sustained peace though is not forgiveness. People in Europe did not exactly forgive the Germans for WW2. What forged peace was economic interdependence and an increasing quality of life that made the cost of war far too significant.
    Europe was economically interdependent - the most until the formation of the EU - in 1914. What forged peace there was the United States forcing that issue.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    No. That's your mentality; take a beating and just lie there. Let your home get destroyed and your people murdered...and you hoping for a chance to run away...for what? Rebuild...so they can take that from you with an obligatory beat down..rinse and repeat.
    You getting your ass kicked repeatedly only says you aren't deserving of keeping anything.
    Yep. Since after MoP night elves gave Azshara to the Horde in hopes of peace and started rebuilding in Ashenvale... See how that ended.

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    Didn't we just rescue Jaina from Thros where she was sentenced for her crimes? And I have no clue what crime you're talking about regarding Vereesa.
    I meant Alliance on Horde stuff, like Jaina on her command responsibility in Purge of Dalaran when Vereesa and her High Elves were outright harassing Sunreaver civilians and even feeding them to sharks, Genn attacking the Horde in a time of peace with the Horde, and Vereesa attempting to assassinate Rommath while they were in Suramar, also a time of peace with the Horde

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    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Horde gets reprisal? You mean when they blame it all one a single person, get away with whatever they did and get to keep the land they stole?

    I am all for that “punishment” for Alliance if they get to tear your guts off and slap you in the face with them. Oh and do a genocide or two while they at it. And then humiliated you in your own playing field. Like outplay trolls in their jungles and beat them entirely or crush orcs in “honorable” direct battle and send them running in fear.
    I mean the Horde keeps on losing their warchief, turned against their own Horde brethren from within, and being extremely defanged. I'm against a Garrosh/Sylvanas genocidal Horde, I'm also against an Alliance bootlicking Horde
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    (Alteraci Human thread in construction)

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    I meant Alliance on Horde stuff, like Jaina on her command responsibility in Purge of Dalaran when Vereesa and her High Elves were outright harassing Sunreaver civilians and even feeding them to sharks, Genn attacking the Horde in a time of peace with the Horde, and Vereesa attempting to assassinate Rommath while they were in Suramar, also a time of peace with the Horde

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    I mean the Horde keeps on losing their warchief, turned against their own Horde brethren from within, and being extremely defanged. I'm against a Garrosh/Sylvanas genocidal Horde, I'm also against an Alliance bootlicking Horde
    If you want to be pedantic then horde broke the peace during Ashran conflict and never signed anything after that so Alliance simply chose not to move against the Horde at large, but they were not at peace.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    I meant Alliance on Horde stuff, like Jaina on her command responsibility in Purge of Dalaran when Vereesa and her High Elves were outright harassing Sunreaver civilians and even feeding them to sharks, Genn attacking the Horde in a time of peace with the Horde, and Vereesa attempting to assassinate Rommath while they were in Suramar, also a time of peace with the Horde

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    I mean the Horde keeps on losing their warchief, turned against their own Horde brethren from within, and being extremely defanged. I'm against a Garrosh/Sylvanas genocidal Horde, I'm also against an Alliance bootlicking Horde
    Alliance was not just “defanged” but also declawed and their gums were cut off to prevent anything growing from them again. So you can get over being non-genocidal.

    Also “turning on itself” is YOUR problem. Stop being psychotic , unstable monsters who suffer from bipolar disorder and you will have stable and long lasting unity.

    And losing warchiefs is nothing compared to being a constant loser faction that gets beaten in a most humiliating and abusive ways possible.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    I meant Alliance on Horde stuff, like Jaina on her command responsibility in Purge of Dalaran when Vereesa and her High Elves were outright harassing Sunreaver civilians and even feeding them to sharks, Genn attacking the Horde in a time of peace with the Horde, and Vereesa attempting to assassinate Rommath while they were in Suramar, also a time of peace with the Horde
    I apparently completely missed Vereesa's attempt to assassinate Rommath. Did that happen during the Suramar campaign? Was it part of an order hall?

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    It's only a fact if it's true. Considering Genn was punished by Anduin, your claim is false. You can say he wasn't punished enough, and you can propose a different, more suitable punishment, but misrepresenting the facts doesn't actually make the opposite true.
    What punishment. He was not fines. Not locked up. Not offered as an apology for peace talks. Sorry a stern talking to in pre ww2 conditions is not a punishment. True punishment would have been something extremely severe for genn that he'd fear for his life if he tried it once more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Yep. Since after MoP night elves gave Azshara to the Horde in hopes of peace and started rebuilding in Ashenvale... See how that ended.
    So we forget that Genn started the war?

  17. #217
    Hoof Hearted!!!
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    The Alliance can "forgive" the Horde, but will never forget the atrocities committed by the ones who perpetrated them. Even a majority of the horde did not take kindly to Sylvanus destroying Teldrassil like she did. As for those saying the only good undead is a dead undead...so you condone genocide? Are you Garroshian, or Windrunnerian? It was a small minority of players that did those things. You cannot blame the entirety of a race for what a few do.
    when all else fails, read the STICKIES.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    You know, there is a middle spot between an Alliance bootlicker and full warmongering idiot. Because us Hordies have got either one or the other extreme.
    If you consider the momentary Council "Alliance Bootlickers" for trying to have a decent diplomatic relationship with the Alliance and making up for the crimes of the Horde then I have big trouble believing you.
    They obviously are the middle ground, but your hatred for anyone that tries to keep the peace and/or the specific actors in play blinds you to this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    So we forget that Genn started the war?
    Or we just do not fall for Sylvanas' propaganda. She started the war because she wanted the war. If Genn had not stopped her in Stormheim she would have picked another event to convince Saurfang. Maybe Taurajo.

    Sylvanas: "And we need to destroy the Alliance because they burned Taurajo!!"
    Saurfang: "But, Warchief, that was only three huts and like 10 years ago. We did much worse before and after!"
    Sylvanas *in Banshee*: "But Taurajo!"

    On a side note. One would think that with the benefit of hindsight that we now enjoy and knowing that Sylvanas is literally trying to end reality Genn's attack and him preventing her from getting infinite Val'kyr would be accepted as a positive act, but the denial is strong with the Horde.
    Last edited by Raisei; 2021-03-04 at 08:15 AM.

  19. #219
    In a world with a story that mattered, yes they could. In WoW, no.

    They're always going to want some part of that Red vs Blue aesthetic to remain even if most players just don't care anymore. They'll come up with stupid contrivances to make the conflict continue long beyond when it should have been over.
    If you reply to me with a full essay I'm probably not going to bother reading it, sorry.

  20. #220
    Everyone keeps saying that Anduin should have punished Genn and . . . I mean I agree Genn started the fight there but what authority does Anduin exactly have here? However much some people like to say it, there is no Blue Warchief in the Alliance. No Blood Oath. Anduin could at most withdraw those Alliance troops that the faction leaders had assigned from Alliance command to Genn. That's it. He is a sovereign ruler he is allied with and he has absolutely no secular authority over him and only has military authority on him ON the field of battle. Anduin cannot expel someone from the Alliance nor can he punish Alliance leaders. He did not even have authority over Genn and Tyrande leaving in the middle of a war; any Alliance leader is free to withdraw assigned troops from the common Army to serve their individual nations as has been seen time and again.

    The only reason Garrosh was punished was that he was captured and that both the Horde and Alliance agreed on a third party court. Even if somehow the Alliance (not Anduin, the Alliance as a whole) would agree to give up Genn for trial, who would try him?
    Last edited by Araevin; 2021-03-04 at 10:11 AM.

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