View Poll Results: Do you think the Alliance and the Horde can ever forgive each other for past crimes?

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171. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, they can forgive each other

    42 24.56%
  • No, they can't forgive each other

    82 47.95%
  • Other / Not sure / It's complicated

    47 27.49%
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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Well, not considering certain animosity that always remains after stuff like that, people responsible of those RL wars are long dead. Meanwhile on Azeroth they are alive and scheming. So are those who witnessed their crimes.
    Agree, but for only few more years

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Doomhammer had already broken out and was Warchief at the time Thrall did things. The orcs he commands were Doomhammer's orcs, the plate he wears is Doomhammer's plate, ditto the hammer he uses, which is quite literally the Doomhammer. Doomhammer passes him leadership directly and nothing structurally changes in the way the Horde works, Blood Oath and all.
    nothing changes beyond new base of operations... totally new roster of followers and leaving behind most of the people that would have been Doomhammer's forces since it was only 4 ships crossing the ocean.

    Fact remains that there's little if anything left of what passes as the horde of Doomhammer fleeing the Eastern Kingdoms on those few ships.

  3. #243

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    nothing changes beyond new base of operations... totally new roster of followers and leaving behind most of the people that would have been Doomhammer's forces since it was only 4 ships crossing the ocean.

    Fact remains that there's little if anything left of what passes as the horde of Doomhammer fleeing the Eastern Kingdoms on those few ships.
    Doomhammer quite literally appoints Thrall Warchief, Thrall wears his duds, changes nothing about the structure of the Horde save for allowing other races which make the same oath as the orcs and names his capital city after him and other outposts after members of the Horde. The New Horde is like New Labour, a branding exercise and directional change, not a whole new group.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-03-06 at 10:13 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  5. #245
    Personally I'm very curious to see how Anduin will come out of this ordeal. He is gonna be a changed person but by how much. What if he suddenly turns into something different. Imagine a scenario where Anduin blames the Horde for what happened from Cataclysm till now and starts a whole crusade in all of Azeroth using every means nessesary.

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    Personally I'm very curious to see how Anduin will come out of this ordeal. He is gonna be a changed person but by how much. What if he suddenly turns into something different. Imagine a scenario where Anduin blames the Horde for what happened from Cataclysm till now and starts a whole crusade in all of Azeroth using every means nessesary.
    Nah, Blizzard isn't going to take such a dump on their beloved Golden Boi. I can already see him becoming Green Jesus 2.0 come the next xpac.

    Now, if he was Horde, you might very well be right about him becoming a warmongering moron overnight.
    Last edited by Soon-TM; 2021-03-06 at 02:12 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Jailer's first ever appearance involved chucking him [Baine] off a cliff for being too shit to even qualify as a Maw trash mob.

  7. #247
    "I am your savior..."

    That would go well...

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Nah, Blizzard isn't going to take such a dump on their beloved Golden Boi. I can already see him becoming Green Jesus 2.0 come the next xpac.

    Now, if he was Horde, you might very well be right about him becoming a warmongering moron overnight.
    I think you might be mistaken about character development. Garrosh was always a bad apple from the moment he set foot on Azeroth. Sylvannas was the same bad apple the moment she died and came back as a Banshee. They certainly did not do a 180 turn overnight. They were always like that. Anduin however wasn't written to be a bad apple. That is why I am curious if this whole ordeal will change him and make him like the hypothetical scenario.

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    Garrosh was always a bad apple
    Incorrect. Having actual flaws =/= being "a bad apple".

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    Sylvannas was the same bad apple the moment she died and came back as a Banshee.
    So the isolationist, fiercely independent Sylvanas of WC3/early WoW who saw her undeath as a disgrace, became first an imperialist moron with messianic undertones (undeath is a superior state, embrace it guyz!), and then she relinquished her freedom by tying her fate to the guy who is ultimately responsible for all the !@#$ she went through. Remember when she chastised the dreadlords in WC3? Now she's their handmaiden lul. Yeah, top character development there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Jailer's first ever appearance involved chucking him [Baine] off a cliff for being too shit to even qualify as a Maw trash mob.

  10. #250
    When I say he was a bad apple I meant that he was always like this and that was the words of the devs not mine. Sylvannas as a character was scarred the moment she died becoming a Lie, Backstabbing person who used everyone else (Forsaken,the Horde) to get her Revenge on Arthas while she also had an agenda to turn on the living at some point. Seeing the Jailer and allying with him simply gave her more weapons to achive that.

  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    When I say he was a bad apple I meant that he was always like this and that was the words of the devs not mine
    Source please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    Sylvannas as a character was scarred the moment she died becoming a Lie, Backstabbing person who used everyone else (Forsaken,the Horde) to get her Revenge on Arthas while she also had an agenda to turn on the living at some point. Seeing the Jailer and allying with him simply gave her more weapons to achive that.
    And she didn't even get her revenge on Arthas, which was reserved to Tirion Sue. Also that "agenda to turn on the living at some point" was pulled straight out of Afrasiabi's rear and promptly dropped, as it happened with many of his "ideas". Pre BtS Sylvanas is incompatible with her BtS depiction, and the latter is also incompatible with her BfA depiction... which in turn is incompatible with her SL depiction (so far). Indeed, top character development there. There is nothing in common between the four iterations of Sylv, other than a generic af "undead bad gurl" motto.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Jailer's first ever appearance involved chucking him [Baine] off a cliff for being too shit to even qualify as a Maw trash mob.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    I'm not sure how rebuking someone is not a punishment. It is an action brought about due to disapproval of the target's actions. It is by its nature undesirable to go through. Ergo, it is a punishment. Should there have been a more severe punishment? Probably. Would a more severe punishment have changed anything? No. If Anduin had executed Genn, for instance, Sylvanas' plans wouldn't have changed, and he'd have lost the Gilnean support (at the least). But I'm curious, what punishment do you feel would be appropriate for Anduin to administer?
    Yes, yes. And leaving a dislike under a YouTube video constitutes a punishment against the YouTuber. Yet by any meaningful definitions of the word, a punishment incurs a penalty of some sort upon the punished party. In terms of punishments in the legal sense, as would be the case here since Genn committed high treason, those penalties are pretty straightforward and range from fines to gruesome executions. Weirdly enough historical instances of traitors that merely received a talk from their leader are described in the categories of clemency, not punishment. And gee, what would have changed had Anduin put his money where his mouth was? I dunno, how about the factions would have no basis for their conflict anymore? Damn, that was hard to figure out.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Or we just do not fall for Sylvanas' propaganda. She started the war because she wanted the war. If Genn had not stopped her in Stormheim she would have picked another event to convince Saurfang. Maybe Taurajo.
    Sylvanas: "And we need to destroy the Alliance because they burned Taurajo!!"
    Saurfang: "But, Warchief, that was only three huts and like 10 years ago. We did much worse before and after!"
    Sylvanas *in Banshee*: "But Taurajo!"
    I like how you yourself point out how this wouldn't have convinced Saurfang. Yet Genn attacking the Horde with complete impunity from Anduin did. It's like your argumentation physically repelled the very concept of consistency.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    On a side note. One would think that with the benefit of hindsight that we now enjoy and knowing that Sylvanas is literally trying to end reality Genn's attack and him preventing her from getting infinite Val'kyr would be accepted as a positive act, but the denial is strong with the Horde.
    The denial here is yours. Sylvanas' plans were just about raising Stormwind's population as Forsaken even when she was already drafting the plans for War of Thorns for Saurfang. The idea that she'd have went down the exact same path she did after Genn fucked her shot at immortality in a timeline where he failed to do that has no grounding in anything resembling logic.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Shame that the Class Orders started their work BEFORE the Stormheim story, so the factions were at each other's throat before. Maybe because Sylvanas decided to leave the Alliance to die on the Broken Shore without so much as a warning that she was withdrawing or sending one of her Val'kyr to save Varian instead of watching him die. Nah, that is impossible.
    And no this has nothing to do with the fact that it was a planned trap by Dreadlord Shaw. Sylvanas could have done something to preserve the peace between the factions and chose not to. That is what counts.
    And their work before that constituted of just finding the artifacts and establishing a headquarter. In some cases the organizations itself didn't even exist yet at the time and instead had to be (re)created at the start of the questline. Not leading the charge against the Legion. That happened during the class campaigns at the very least. Which, you know, happened AFTER Stormheim began. So what's this? You failed to address the actual point you were responding to for the thousandth time? Damn, color me surprised. What an unexpected turn of events this is.

    Besides, the idea that the factions were at each other's throats immediately after the Broken Shore doesn't pan out if you actually paid attention to the story for once. We've seen the immediate aftermath of the Broken Shore from both sides. Both contain reports on how the other faction took it, yet weirdly enough neither mention any open hostilities in that context. Even in the first Alliance quest in Stormheim, which takes place slightly later on, Genn and Rogers are only permitted to start hostilities with the Horde when provoked. If they were already openly hostile to each other that caveat wouldn't have made any sense.

    Also, the BS about the Horde leaving the Alliance without "so much as a warning" continues to be nothing more than a desperate lie. Horn signals constitute warnings. The very purpose of horn signals on a battlefield is to convey information. On top of that, Varian quite clearly understood what the signal meant and did so instantly, even if he didn't understand the "why".

    And I just love your blatant dishonesty in the way you handwaved away the fact that the factions fell for a trap (which they did because the Alliance fucked up). Obviously it was on Sylvanas and Sylvanas alone to do something to preserve the peace. Never mind that Detheroc has been unmased while still in Stormwind and Anduin "I'm totally in favor of peace (as long as it means the likes of Genn attacking the Horde with impunity)" Wrynn not only failed to do anything about it, he even failed to connect the dots. But hey, I guess that didn't count ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    On top of that you're merrily ignoring that Sylvanas wasn't even the Horde commander at the Broken Shore. Vol'jin was. And he ordered Sylvanas to save the Horde. Furthermore, the idea that the Horde was in any position to help the Alliance is bogus. Their position had just been bombarded by the spaceships Vizuul had summoned and their ranks had been broken. All the while demons continued to pour in from the portals at the Horde ledge.

    Finally, even if Sylvanas had a Val'kyr to spare (which is a nonsensical premise given the above), what was that Val'kyr supposed to save Varian from, exactly? At the time of the Horde retreat, the situation on the Alliance easy-mode side of the battleground was not only stable, the Alliance was winning. And immediately afterwards their gunship (that Varian was too stupid to bring to the battleground from the get go) provided the air support that the Horde's retreat temporarily deprived the Alliance of AND allowed them an easy way out. Varian died because of the Fel Reaver that wasn't even on Azeroth at the time. Gul'dan summoned it after the Horde was already gone and the Alliance already boarded the gunship. And there is no logical link whatsoever between Gul'dan summoning that Fel Reaver and the Horde's retreat.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Odyn seems to be rather forgiving... until you are a Shadow Priest with Xal'atath and ask him about Loken. Then he instantly vaporizes you and kicks you out of the Halls. Signaling that when he and his "family" are considered he is much less inclined to forgive. So yes, it was extremly foolish to attack Eyir when we needed Odyn's help, no matter how much you would like Sylvanas to be right. Making a deal with Helya alone would have made Odyn furious, since he hated her.
    We neither needed Odyn's helps (his biggest contribution in the entire war was destroying a single Legion ship), nor were we actively seeking it. Again, we were in Stormheim after the Aegis and the way we pursued the Aegis was trying to complete the trials, not sucking up to Odyn. Also, as per the dungeon dialogue, Eyir was salty towards the mortals because of what she witnessed in Stormheim. With what she witnessed being Sylvanas' attempt at capturing her and the Worgen attacking the Forsaken. Yet Odyn continued not giving a shit and was cheering on our VALOR. Likewise, even after the dungeon he merrily cheered Horde players on as they aided the Forsaken in their fight against the Worgen, just as he cheered on the Alliance players aiding the Worgen. If you were right, which as per usual you're not, one would think Odyn would show even a little bit of favoritism in those quests.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Please. The moment we find out that Stormheim is connected to the Val'kyr even a toddler would have figured out what Sylvanas wants there.
    Please what? Genn figuring out that Sylvanas is after Val'kyr only when he got to Skold-Ashil is literally a part of the Alliance questline. Prior to that he states multiple times he has no clue what she's after. The only things you're achieving here is presenting Genn as so stupid that his intellect is inferior to that of toddlers and once again showing off that you don't even know the Alliance side of the events you somehow consider yourself fit to talk about.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Of course the initial attack had a different motivation. It is cute that you think that anyone needs an additional reason to just kill Sylvanas where she stands when she is a genocidal monster and war criminal several times over. Few people in this world would have less right to speak of an "unprovoked attack" then her. But sure keep pushing that narrative where she is an innocent victim of the cruel Genn Greymane!
    Keep building those straw-men. Maybe one day one of them will Pinocchio itself into a real boy argument.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    After the Wrathgate and after seeing what disgusting things the Horde were doing in the Undercity, that is correct. Your missconception is that you assign the blame for that war to the Alliance as well, which could not be further from the truth.
    Come the hell on. You've been through this multiple times both with me and with @Super Dickmann. As per the Alliance side of the relevant questline (which you of course don't know either, because why would you ever inform yourself at least about the Alliance side of things) Varian himself acknowledged that the Wrathgate has been committed by people he himself considered to be not Horde. Unless you found an answer as to how the Horde could have lost Undercity to itself, hmm? Because the last time I asked you this question you somehow failed to provide an answer. Likewise, the fact that the only reference to the Forsaken in his declaration of war was him insulting Sylvanas, with everything else being about his salt towards the Orcs also hasn't changed since the last time you took a swing at this topic and failed to provide any counter-arguments once your initial premise has been contested.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Oh dear, Anduin did not execute Genn for trying to kill the monster that murdered his son and blighted his kingdom! The audacity!
    Yes, I suppose the cheap appeal to emotions of "but muh Genn's son" you're using here in lieu of an actual argument can be described with the word "audacity". Meanwhile in the real world, Anduin was the leader of a kingdom and of a multinational military alliance. Where sentiments play second fiddle to realpolitik. And the way things were, the war during which Sylvanas "murdered" his son had by then been over. On top of that, Anduin gave Genn explicit orders not to attack the Horde unless warranted. And then he himself thought that Genn violated those orders, meaning that Anduin himself somehow didn't consider muh "murdered" son as a valid excuse.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raisei View Post
    Tell me again, how was Sylvanas punished for not following Garrosh's orders in Gilneas? Oh riiight, she wasn't. But I guess that is not strange, Garrosh was always the forgiving type, much more so then that warmonger Anduin. It is strange how these things always only register with you when it is Alliance characters that could be punished, while the Horde is never wrong in anything it does, right?
    I like how you immediately assumed your appeal to emotion wouldn't have worked so you decided to support it with blatant whataboutism for good measure. Never mind that there is not a single confirmation that Garrosh knew what happened in Gilneas as we haven't seen him give the slightest shit about the area after the events of Worgen starting zone. Meanwhile on the other hand we know for a fact that Anduin not only knew about what transpired in Stormheim, but he considered it to be a violation of his orders.
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  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Source please..
    If I remember correct it was an old Q and A in Mists of Pandaria regarding if Garrosh was controlled or something from the Sha but the answer was that he was just a bad apple and everything was a weapon for him. Even the Sha. He also adds in another question that his vision was the Orcs making a world of their own and the other lesser races serve or be crushed. That is the short version of it.
    https://www.wowhead.com/news=212330/...ns-and-answers

    As for Sylvannas I never said her character developed at all. She is the same character using the Forsaken and the Horde as a way to get her revenge on Arthas. Her plan to end the living was also her longterm agenda as there is a questline in vanilla in creating the new Plague and the npcs straightly mention that they intend to use it on the living in the longrun. Meeting with the Jailer just added another ally to what she was trying to do. For Shadowlands though the difference is that she wants to change how Death works however the concept seems the same. Kill the whole of Azeroth to do it by empowering the Jailer so he can do something.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Yes, yes. And leaving a dislike under a YouTube video constitutes a punishment against the YouTuber. Yet by any meaningful definitions of the word, a punishment incurs a penalty of some sort upon the punished party. In terms of punishments in the legal sense, as would be the case here since Genn committed high treason, those penalties are pretty straightforward and range from fines to gruesome executions. Weirdly enough historical instances of traitors that merely received a talk from their leader are described in the categories of clemency, not punishment. And gee, what would have changed had Anduin put his money where his mouth was? I dunno, how about the factions would have no basis for their conflict anymore? Damn, that was hard to figure out.
    Wait, so if Genn were charged a fine, the conflict during WoD over Ashran would have been forgiven, goblins would not have jumped at the opportunity to harvest Azerite resulting in the Alliance not sending spies and assassins out there, and Anduin would've given up on uniting the undead and living Lordaeronians? Genn was one of several motivations Sylvanas used to motivate Saurfang toward the War of Thorns, the others being Anduin becoming a man, Azerite changing the balance of power, and that no one knows what will happen in a hundred years. Ultimately what swayed Saurfang was the following line of thought, taken from A Good War: "War would come again one day, and if both factions were strong, that war would raze entire nations. How many different peoples on Azeroth would become extinct in that fight?" Genn paying a fine has no bearing on that, and the War of Thorns would have happened regardless because we know it was part of Sylvanas' Grand Plan.

    I agree that Genn should have suffered some other punishment, such as being pulled from military service or the like, but ultimately it wouldn't have changed anything.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Aresk View Post
    What war did Genn start? Blackhand started the first war, and Gilneas didn't take part. Doomhammer started the second. Arthas, Daelin, or Kel'thuzad the third, depending on how you define the third war, and only the Gilnean renegades took part, so associating that war with Genn seems silly. The Horde-Alliance War was started by Varian. The war with Gilneas was started by Garrosh. The Fourth War was started by Sylvanas.

    Genn was part of the initiation of the attack on the Horde in Stormheim, which was after the treaty following the Horde-Alliance war. However, that treaty had already been violated in Ashran when the factions started attacking one another again and gathering mounds of bones from the other faction's dead as trophies to display in their garrisons. There was no other treaty after that; the Horde and Alliance only worked together in one instance after that point, which was the Battle of the Broken Shore, in which the factions claimed territory in different parts of the island and avoided contact with one another (a far cry from periods of peace where they would literally intermingle their bases).

    I'm not condoning Genn's actions. But let's not pretend they came clear out of left field when the factions had already been in open conflict following their last peace treaty, the Order Halls were founded because the factions weren't cooperating properly, and Sylvanas left the Alliance in a state of feeling betrayed because she couldn't be bothered to send a single missive explaining the situation that happened at the Broken Shore.
    They were in a conflict so open because of Ashran (where the only known casualty is a guy whose foot got hurt) you had to grasp at "their bases weren't on the same side" straws in order to dismiss the event that showed they weren't in open conflict at the time. Never mind they had no intermingled bases at the Wrathgate or in Silithus either. On top of that, you're blatantly ignoring what happened at the Broken Shore before the players arrived there because it's inconvenient to what you're pushing here.

    Because what happened before then was that the Alliance and Horde forces - that arrived very much together - were ambushed by the Legion and got scattered. And they got separated only because of that. They also got separated from the Argent Crusade, so look at all dat conflict between Varian and Tirion /s And when they got sort of reunited at Krosus, they made the decision to split up for strategic reasons rather than any hostilities, with Sylvanas and Varian even wishing each other good luck.

    And yeah, it's all that pesky Sylvanas' fault that the Alliance felt betrayed. Look at all the envoys from the Alliance calmly inquiring what happened that she had to execute. Oh, wait, that's not what happened. What happened is that Alliance continued to fester in their muh betrayal delusions even after the Shaw that was feeding them anti-Horde rhetoric turned out to be Detheroc in disguise and the whole ploy was him feeding the Alliance bullshit for the Legion's benefit, because apparently no one in the Alliance had the brainpower required to connect whole two dots together.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
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    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  16. #256
    Can it be done? Definitely

    Look at France and the British. Those two were big time enemies for most of their history.

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    They were in a conflict so open because of Ashran (where the only known casualty is a guy whose foot got hurt) you had to grasp at "their bases weren't on the same side" straws in order to dismiss the event that showed they weren't in open conflict at the time. Never mind they had no intermingled bases at the Wrathgate or in Silithus either. On top of that, you're blatantly ignoring what happened at the Broken Shore before the players arrived there because it's inconvenient to what you're pushing here.

    Because what happened before then was that the Alliance and Horde forces - that arrived very much together - were ambushed by the Legion and got scattered. And they got separated only because of that. They also got separated from the Argent Crusade, so look at all dat conflict between Varian and Tirion /s And when they got sort of reunited at Krosus, they made the decision to split up for strategic reasons rather than any hostilities, with Sylvanas and Varian even wishing each other good luck.

    And yeah, it's all that pesky Sylvanas' fault that the Alliance felt betrayed. Look at all the envoys from the Alliance calmly inquiring what happened that she had to execute. Oh, wait, that's not what happened. What happened is that Alliance continued to fester in their muh betrayal delusions even after the Shaw that was feeding them anti-Horde rhetoric turned out to be Detheroc in disguise and the whole ploy was him feeding the Alliance bullshit for the Legion's benefit, because apparently no one in the Alliance had the brainpower required to connect whole two dots together.
    I'm not grasping at straws. If you look at the way the Horde and Alliance fought together at the start of the night elf campaign in WC3, they're literally working together. Conversely, as you pointed out with Northrend, they don't have intermingled bases at the Wrathgate; the Alliance was openly attacking the Horde in Howling Fjord prior to the Wrathgate, and it would be crazy to have such people camping right next to each other. With respect to Silithus, you'll have to be a little more specific about what bases you're referring to (I presume not those after Sargeras' attack, since that was after this event and features faction conflict, and I assume not their bases for the Silithyst Must Flow event, because that heavily undermines your argument given the goal of the event is to kill the other factions' characters).

    During the Broken Shore, the two forces arrived in separate vehicles (as opposed to Dragon Soul, where the Horde is transported on the Alliance airship even though the two factions are still in open war). They took different shores (much like the Isle of Thunder, where tensions were high). They split up the island. They worked in cooperation, but they worked separately. Compared to WoD, where they literally stand side-by-side at the Dark Portal, there's definitely a different feeling to the scenario. And after that Dark Portal scenario, when Ashran happens, the two do not work together again in that expansion. In comes Legion, and they have another cooperative attack against a common foe, but they're keeping their distance. At the end of it, they go their separate ways, with the Alliance feeling betrayed by the Horde. You yourself brought up the Order Halls being formed because the factions weren't getting along, which happens after this battle and before Stormheim.

    For clarity, I didn't claim they were in open conflict during the Broken Shore. I said they were in open conflict after the treaty, during Ashran. Just like they've had other instances of open conflict (Warsong Gulch, Arathi Basin, Alterac Valley) that did not lead to outright war but did support the narrative of Alliance/Horde aggression.

    The difference between the Alliance and the Horde with respect to the aftermath is that the Alliance perceives the Horde's action as a betrayal. Jaina is willing to leave the Kirin Tor over it, advocating a two-front war. Sylvanas, meanwhile, is fully aware that the Alliance feels betrayed, expects them to attack, and does nothing about it. I find it hard to believe that she thought everything was good between Alliance and Horde while warning Horde champions to expect Alliance retaliation. The Alliance could have sent envoys, but Sylvanas welcomed the assault, expecting it and doing nothing to try to prevent it.

    As for Detheroc, has it been canonized that his treachery was exposed before the attack on Stormheim? I could bring up the Warden Towers conflict or the events in Azsuna to further support the claim that they weren't working together at the time of Stormheim, but I don't, because as far as I'm aware, there's nothing to illustrate that one zone happens before another. Similarly, I've not seen any evidence that any part of an order hall campaign besides the initial setup quest (let alone the endgame level 110 quests) occurs before any of the leveling zones do, so I find it unlikely that Genn was aware the Legion had been manipulating the Alliance from within when he attacked the Horde fleet.

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    I like how you yourself point out how this wouldn't have convinced Saurfang. Yet Genn attacking the Horde with complete impunity from Anduin did. It's like your argumentation physically repelled the very concept of consistency.
    My point, that you as usual ignore, was that Sylvanas entire justification for the war was pure bullshit. It did not matter which of the 3 things the Horde brings up every time it goes genocide mode she used, She would have been able to spin any of them in a way to convince Saurfang. She is a very good lier after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    The denial here is yours. Sylvanas' plans were just about raising Stormwind's population as Forsaken even when she was already drafting the plans for War of Thorns for Saurfang. The idea that she'd have went down the exact same path she did after Genn fucked her shot at immortality in a timeline where he failed to do that has no grounding in anything resembling logic.
    Canon lore states that she has been following this plan since late WoTLK. So this is what we have to work with. We can reinterpret her plan to raize and raise Stormwind in this regard as nothing but a plan to get more soldiers for more extermination before destroying those Forsaken as well to feed the Maw. In the end her goal in the war was to cause death any way she could.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Also, the BS about the Horde leaving the Alliance without "so much as a warning" continues to be nothing more than a desperate lie. Horn signals constitute warnings. The very purpose of horn signals on a battlefield is to convey information. On top of that, Varian quite clearly understood what the signal meant and did so instantly, even if he didn't understand the "why".
    Obviously to everyone but you the horn was meant to recall her own archers. Varian SAW that and after a moment of disbelieve figured she was leaving them to die, with Genn supporting that notion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    And I just love your blatant dishonesty in the way you handwaved away the fact that the factions fell for a trap (which they did because the Alliance fucked up). Obviously it was on Sylvanas and Sylvanas alone to do something to preserve the peace. Never mind that Detheroc has been unmased while still in Stormwind and Anduin "I'm totally in favor of peace (as long as it means the likes of Genn attacking the Horde with impunity)" Wrynn not only failed to do anything about it, he even failed to connect the dots. But hey, I guess that didn't count ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    On top of that you're merrily ignoring that Sylvanas wasn't even the Horde commander at the Broken Shore. Vol'jin was. And he ordered Sylvanas to save the Horde. Furthermore, the idea that the Horde was in any position to help the Alliance is bogus. Their position had just been bombarded by the spaceships Vizuul had summoned and their ranks had been broken. All the while demons continued to pour in from the portals at the Horde ledge.

    Finally, even if Sylvanas had a Val'kyr to spare (which is a nonsensical premise given the above), what was that Val'kyr supposed to save Varian from, exactly? At the time of the Horde retreat, the situation on the Alliance easy-mode side of the battleground was not only stable, the Alliance was winning. And immediately afterwards their gunship (that Varian was too stupid to bring to the battleground from the get go) provided the air support that the Horde's retreat temporarily deprived the Alliance of AND allowed them an easy way out. Varian died because of the Fel Reaver that wasn't even on Azeroth at the time. Gul'dan summoned it after the Horde was already gone and the Alliance already boarded the gunship. And there is no logical link whatsoever between Gul'dan summoning that Fel Reaver and the Horde's retreat.
    Sylvanas was merely and safely watching from her skyship when Varian exploded. Nothing in the world was stopping her to send a Val'kyr down there. She would have seen that the Alliance had to drawn back as well and that Varian stayed behind to one-shot a Fel Reaver.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    We neither needed Odyn's helps (his biggest contribution in the entire war was destroying a single Legion ship), nor were we actively seeking it. Again, we were in Stormheim after the Aegis and the way we pursued the Aegis was trying to complete the trials, not sucking up to Odyn. Also, as per the dungeon dialogue, Eyir was salty towards the mortals because of what she witnessed in Stormheim. With what she witnessed being Sylvanas' attempt at capturing her and the Worgen attacking the Forsaken. Yet Odyn continued not giving a shit and was cheering on our VALOR. Likewise, even after the dungeon he merrily cheered Horde players on as they aided the Forsaken in their fight against the Worgen, just as he cheered on the Alliance players aiding the Worgen. If you were right, which as per usual you're not, one would think Odyn would show even a little bit of favoritism in those quests.
    Obviously the game did not bar Horde players from completing the dungeon and aquiring the Aegis. It's another of those points where it SHOULD but doesn't because your faction needs to keep existing for unknown reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Please what? Genn figuring out that Sylvanas is after Val'kyr only when he got to Skold-Ashil is literally a part of the Alliance questline. Prior to that he states multiple times he has no clue what she's after. The only things you're achieving here is presenting Genn as so stupid that his intellect is inferior to that of toddlers and once again showing off that you don't even know the Alliance side of the events you somehow consider yourself fit to talk about.
    As I said right in the following paragraph, yes, his first attack was merely motivated by Sylvanas being an evil abomination and deserves to be killed. Which already justifies the attack without any trouble. Even without knowing exactly what she was up to, every 5-year old could have realized that the emo elf clad in skulls that spend the last decades being evil will not suddenly go on some heroic quest that will save everyone. Which as it turned out as soon as we learned the full reason was absolutely correct.
    Genn acted out of experience with her, then out of knowledge and he was justified. If we additonally apply hindsight it was extremely good he stopped her or we would now have to deal with an immortal Sylvanas. Yay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Keep building those straw-men. Maybe one day one of them will Pinocchio itself into a real boy argument.
    Keep dismissing everything you don't like as a strawman, maybe one day you will actually be able to deliver a counter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Come the hell on. You've been through this multiple times both with me and with @Super Dickmann. As per the Alliance side of the relevant questline (which you of course don't know either, because why would you ever inform yourself at least about the Alliance side of things) Varian himself acknowledged that the Wrathgate has been committed by people he himself considered to be not Horde. Unless you found an answer as to how the Horde could have lost Undercity to itself, hmm? Because the last time I asked you this question you somehow failed to provide an answer. Likewise, the fact that the only reference to the Forsaken in his declaration of war was him insulting Sylvanas, with everything else being about his salt towards the Orcs also hasn't changed since the last time you took a swing at this topic and failed to provide any counter-arguments once your initial premise has been contested.
    I explained it then. Varian declares war because he considers the Forsaken a part of the Horde. As Warchief Thrall is responsible for all they do, he failed to keep an eye on them, giving Varian the justification he needed to declare the war. Was he looking for it? Sure. But the blame still squarely lies at the Horde's feet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    I like how you immediately assumed your appeal to emotion wouldn't have worked so you decided to support it with blatant whataboutism for good measure. Never mind that there is not a single confirmation that Garrosh knew what happened in Gilneas as we haven't seen him give the slightest shit about the area after the events of Worgen starting zone. Meanwhile on the other hand we know for a fact that Anduin not only knew about what transpired in Stormheim, but he considered it to be a violation of his orders.
    Oh it wasn't an appeal to emotion, it was a very short snippet of just two crimes the honorable Warchief of the Horde commited and why making her Warchief in the first place was a giant middle finger to the Alliance tantamount to directly declaring war, no matter what Vol'jin's loa said. Any kind of diplomacy ends when you elect a known mass murderer as your new leader. Expecting the people who have been severly wronged by this person to sit idly by just because she has put on a new hat is ridiculous.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    I mean... Andy is the High King, i.e. the highest ranked military officer in the entire Alliance. If he cannot properly punish a subordinate who clearly disobeys him, and is responsible for a major diplomatic incident (to say the least) on top, then either a) the High King title is completely empty, since it carries no weight whatsoever, or b) Anduin was implicitly in agreement with Genn, in which case his mellow "peace" rhetoric is nothing but a hogwash.
    Anduin's authority is in the field. Genn is not his subordinate, he is an allied King of a sovereign Kingdom.

  20. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Araevin View Post
    Anduin's authority is in the field. Genn is not his subordinate, he is an allied King of a sovereign Kingdom.
    Then option a) it is, apparently.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Jailer's first ever appearance involved chucking him [Baine] off a cliff for being too shit to even qualify as a Maw trash mob.

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