View Poll Results: Do you think the Alliance and the Horde can ever forgive each other for past crimes?

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  • Yes, they can forgive each other

    42 24.56%
  • No, they can't forgive each other

    82 47.95%
  • Other / Not sure / It's complicated

    47 27.49%
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  1. #281
    Of course they can forgive each other, history is full of minor and major conflicts that were later forgiven, some with atrocities worse than what we have in WoW.

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Sialina View Post
    Of course they can forgive each other, history is full of minor and major conflicts that were later forgiven, some with atrocities worse than what we have in WoW.
    Some were forgiven.
    The worst however? Never.

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by Sialina View Post
    Of course they can forgive each other, history is full of minor and major conflicts that were later forgiven, some with atrocities worse than what we have in WoW.
    Depending on the degree it takes a long time to do so. Comparable events like Magdeburg's Wedding took hundreds of years to clear out.
    "Magdeburgesieren" is still a Word used in some regions nearly 400 years later to imply some thing was completely wiped out/destroyed.

  4. #284
    I really hope they won't, to be honest.
    It will, essentially, erase the relevancy of the faction war from the game and give rise to more characters like Anduin, than say Garrosh and Varian.

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    I really hope they won't, to be honest.
    It will, essentially, erase the relevancy of the faction war from the game and give rise to more characters like Anduin, than say Garrosh and Varian.
    If “faction war” will be handled the same way as BfA then i rather have no faction war.

  6. #286
    Banned Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    I really hope they won't, to be honest.
    It will, essentially, erase the relevancy of the faction war from the game and give rise to more characters like Anduin, than say Garrosh and Varian.
    The more Varians or Garroshes, the better the story becomes. The more Anduins, the worse.

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    The more Varians or Garroshes, the better the story becomes. The more Anduins, the worse.
    Blizz cant write a faction conflict so... They better not try that shit again.

  8. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    If “faction war” will be handled the same way as BfA then i rather have no faction war.
    And what about MoP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    The more Varians or Garroshes, the better the story becomes. The more Anduins, the worse.
    Preach.

    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Blizz cant write a faction conflict so... They better not try that shit again.
    Well... apparently they can. Otherwise, there would be no franchise.
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  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    The Kaldorei taught Druidism to the Horde. They traded wood, gave them territories and saved the life of one of their races (we can say two if we add W3).
    And despite all this the Horde set fire to Teldrazzil, when it had already surrendered and no PC from the Horde seemed to bother in the least this except Barock.

    This is how the Horde treats those who try to lend a hand. Imagine how he is going to treat the races that enslaved them.

    On the side of the Alliance. Teldrazzil has just started and the Kaldorei live longer than the time of WoW. So not a generation is going to pass before WoW ends.

    Peace is not impossible.
    The peace of Anduin and Baien that leaves in peace because it is "good" is what is impossible.
    wtf no that isn't even true. where did you even get this.... Taurens where druids way before night elves ever did lmao.... Same with trolls (except darkspear). Do you know that the wood trade was because thrall seeked that neutrality over survival? Don't you remember grom hellscream destroying Cenarius? That's literally why it happened. Night elves didn't have their military to even defend themselves from a full on horde assault back then... Please don't post lore related stuff if you have no idea about it.

  10. #290
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    If the Alliance and Horde were real-life entities they would have done so a long long time ago. Or killing each other off to extinction. The average citizen would have risen up by now and kill off the leaders that kept pushing their citizens into stupid wars for personal vendetas.

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by Logwyn View Post
    If the Alliance and Horde were real-life entities they would have done so a long long time ago. Or killing each other off to extinction. The average citizen would have risen up by now and kill off the leaders that kept pushing their citizens into stupid wars for personal vendetas.
    These are racial hatreds, not individual ones.
    Humans hate the Orcs and vice-versa, Goblins and Gnomes are rivals, Worgen despise the Forsaken, Zandalari resent the Kul Tirans and the Mag'har loathe the Light (bound/forged) Draenei.
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  12. #292
    "We could not fill the chasm between the Horde and Alliance if we labored 1000 years"

  13. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    And what about MoP?



    Preach.



    Well... apparently they can. Otherwise, there would be no franchise.
    They could, but after MoP they just sucked the concept dry and also allowed their biases to ruin it so... Yeah now its untenable.

  14. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Blizz cant write a faction conflict so... They better not try that shit again.
    I like the faction conflict in Cata and MoP; so yeah if Talanji/Rokhan goes out for vengeance and retribution, and Turalyon/Alleria/Danath goes out for blood, I think it would be better than Sylvanas' "let's kill people just because" faction conflict
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    (Alteraci Human thread in construction)

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    I like the faction conflict in Cata and MoP; so yeah if Talanji/Rokhan goes out for vengeance and retribution, and Turalyon/Alleria/Danath goes out for blood, I think it would be better than Sylvanas' "let's kill people just because" faction conflict
    And then what? That cant be equalized or ended without fucking over one of the factions. BfA was promised to be a faction pride expansion and Alliance now all but gone in terms of faction pride, cucked to oblivion and beyond. I dont want another expansion of eating dirt and then being told to forgive and forget.

  16. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    They could, but after MoP they just sucked the concept dry and also allowed their biases to ruin it so... Yeah now its untenable.
    Agree.
    Sylvanas is nowhere as good as Garrosh.
    And this uniting to take down a corrupted Warchief is kinda getting repetitive.

    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    And then what? That cant be equalized or ended without fucking over one of the factions. BfA was promised to be a faction pride expansion and Alliance now all but gone in terms of faction pride, cucked to oblivion and beyond. I dont want another expansion of eating dirt and then being told to forgive and forget.
    Perhaps, faction conflict should never take the center stage but, be a side theme of an expansion - just like the Old Gods.
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    Dear Scrapbot or Moderator:
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    Thank you in advance.

  17. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by OwenBurton View Post
    The Alliance and the Horde are currently in an uneasy state of armistice -- but there are still very serious unresolved issues.

    The status of Ashenvale and Lordaeron remain unclear. Did the Horde withdraw entirely from Ashenvale? And if so, why are the kaldorei not living there? Is Lordaeron still occupied militarily by Alliance forces? Will either region become the future home of the kaldorei? And the Forsaken -- will Calia Menethil play a major role in Lordaeron's future? Will the Forsaken eventually accept her as their new leader? Will Turalyon accept her as Queen of Lordaeron? And will this allegiance to his kingdom eventually cause conflict with his loyalties to Anduin and Stormwind?

    And Sylvanas while manipulating Saurfang for her own ends -- she is not entirely wrong in her arguments, the very fact the Horde marched against the night elves without hesitation, and the vast majority of continued to fight even long after the Burning of Teldrassil, indicates even back then, most Horde characters did not particularly care much about what happened to the kaldorei, and saw them as their mortal enemies, and neither did the Alliance see the Forsaken as worthy of sympathy:


    And of course, the night elves, and presumably most night elf players, will very probably never be able to forget or forgive this:


    Queen Talanji and her lingering grievances against Jaina Proudmoore and the other Kul Tirans -- she has not forgotten her father's death. And the Zandalari still want Alliance blood for what happened to their king.



    Nor is Tyrande willing to forgive the Horde:



    I always felt the Fourth War was ended very abruptly. It seemed unrealistic that most Alliance and Horde leaders just decided to stop fighting -- even without Sylvanas, they had tons of bitter grudges and grievances against each other, even before the Battle for Azeroth began. I understand Jaina and Thrall respect each other -- and are friends again, but why would that affect most Alliance and Horde members? The war missions had the Alliance and Horde fighting across the span of two continents repeatedly, did they just suddenly stop after Sylvanas left them? Perhaps most Alliance and Horde leaders are pro-armistice -- but it seems all but impossible that most of their populaces are pro-armistice as well. The entire premise, at least from the short stories and the Warbringers shorts, was that this conflict was unforgivable, basically, and would lead to permanent changes, and some even argued it would end the faction system altogether -- but now, all of that seems to have been swept away, the expansion almost ending in a whimper instead of a bang. Understandably, of course, because of Shadowlands -- but I still believe the armistice is too honestly unrealistic, especially compared in a real world context.

    I mean, realistically, if Anduin's ranks were nearly depleted even before he released Saurfang from the Stockades, most families probably lost their family members during the conflict; I'm sure for example, most soldiers who perished had wives and children back home, families who were waiting for them to return to Stormwind and Orgrimmar, but they never did. It is not just the kaldorei who were orphaned en masse; almost EVERY race is now filled with orphans. They hate and loathe each other more than ever before, at the end of the day, Teldrassil and Lordaeron are still destroyed, and the kaldorei and the Forsaken are without a permanent settlement. I don't believe that Tyrande should pursue her vengeance as it leads to insanity, or the Zandalari for that matter -- but neither do the issues and problems between the factions seem anywhere near adequately resolved.

    Was Sylvanas right in her arguments? Is real, lasting peace truly impossible, and conflict inevitable, until one faction is broken or destroyed? Do you think the Alliance and Horde can eventually forgive each for the past? Or will they remain forever enemies? Would you be willing, here and now, to forgive the opposite faction?
    Sylvanas was wrong. Peace was possible before Teldrassil. Everything before that could be interpreted as consequences of the orcs manipulation through the demon blood and the resulting consequences. At some point, before Garrosh became warchief, the factions got much closer already in general. The bombing of Theramore was a warcrime, even in the world of warcraft, and even most of the Horde agreed with that and rebelled. It was not the only reason, but it was part of it (another reason being Garroshs open racism for other races in the Horde).
    For the Horde this was a very defining moment, because the statement of the siege of ogrimmar was "we are better than this" and at that point in time it seemed true.
    Then Teldrassil happened and the vast majority of the Horde supported or and continued with warcrime after watching through all of BfA and only a tiny fraction said "wait, we are better than this"

    It's over now, peace is impossible and so is abandoning factions.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    And then what? That cant be equalized or ended without fucking over one of the factions. BfA was promised to be a faction pride expansion and Alliance now all but gone in terms of faction pride, cucked to oblivion and beyond. I dont want another expansion of eating dirt and then being told to forgive and forget.
    I 100% with you, but the fun thing is, that the Horde also feels cucked because they lost another warchief and the "alliance puppets" Baine, Thrall and Calia are in power now. Oh right, also basically the whole faction (including the PC) is evil now.

    I still argue the alliance storyline is much, much worse, but in the end nobody is happy and nobody is proud anymore.

  18. #298
    Never as long as they are segregated behind factions.

    Blizzard should remove hard factions and just allow any race to be in any faction, and make factions based on ideologies rather than racials as well.

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Sialina View Post
    Of course they can forgive each other, history is full of minor and major conflicts that were later forgiven, some with atrocities worse than what we have in WoW.
    Because of a generation change. E.g. its much easier for jewish people born after let's say 1970 to live and interact with German people who were born around the same time. It is another generation that has no personal conflict with each other and that grew up in culturally different times.

    This is different in WoW tho because the life span of dwarves is much higher than the one of e.g. humans and orcs and still nothing compared to elves and draenei.
    When 10 generations of Orcs have come and gone, the same nightelves that survived Teldrassil are still alive and most likely in good shape. When a hundred generations of Orcs have come and gone, the draenei who saw the massacres of Ashenvale and Brennendam are still alive and well.

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by The Butt Witch View Post
    Never as long as they are segregated behind factions.

    Blizzard should remove hard factions and just allow any race to be in any faction, and make factions based on ideologies rather than racials as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    Sylvanas was wrong. Peace was possible before Teldrassil. Everything before that could be interpreted as consequences of the orcs manipulation through the demon blood and the resulting consequences. At some point, before Garrosh became warchief, the factions got much closer already in general. The bombing of Theramore was a warcrime, even in the world of warcraft, and even most of the Horde agreed with that and rebelled. It was not the only reason, but it was part of it (another reason being Garroshs open racism for other races in the Horde).
    For the Horde this was a very defining moment, because the statement of the siege of ogrimmar was "we are better than this" and at that point in time it seemed true.
    Then Teldrassil happened and the vast majority of the Horde supported or and continued with warcrime after watching through all of BfA and only a tiny fraction said "wait, we are better than this"

    It's over now, peace is impossible and so is abandoning factions.
    If there's one thing that the Mag'har Orcs taught us is that they do not require demonic corruption to be bloodthirsty conquerers. That is now nothing but an excuse. It just amplified their traits, not changed them from peaceful people to warmongerers.

    If anything, I would expand the factions, not abandon them. Take the covenants for example. They gave us a roleplaying aspect that was long missing from WoW. They should do the same with factions. Alliance and Horde should remain but, there should also be a Sentinel faction and a Scourge faction (like in WC3), for the nature lovers and for the evil ones.
    Read First! (Very Important)
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