Do you think the Alliance and the Horde can ever forgive each other for past crimes?

[Fleugen]

No. Its insane and unfeasible after BfA. Maybe Stormwind humans can forgive the horde, or rather Anduin can and his direct subjects will comply. But Alliance as a whole should see the horde as a worst existential threat they ever faced.

This.

They already had plenty of reason to prior to BfA. The First War alone proved that to most. The third war was supposed to be when the two looked at each other as equals and learned to cooperate DESPITE knowing they would never "get along."

It wasn't. The first, second, even the third wars, and all subsequent betrayals (Up to Garrosh, though even that was tangentially spawned by the Legion's effects on Daenor) - One could feasibly argue they were caused by the Legion, not the Horde, because the Legion controlled every aspect of those wars/battles. (Again, until Garrosh.) The Fourth War, however, was started and fought willfully by the entire Horde.

There is now no way the Alliance or Horde could ever, feasibly, stop warring with one another. Sylvanas could die shouting "I DID EVERYTHING, IT WAS ME, ALL OF YOUR MISERIES WERE PLANNED AND CAUSED BY ME AND ME ALONE" and show proof to convince every person on Azeroth, and still the question of "But why did the Horde go along with it?" would remain.

The Horde is no longer redeemable.

[OwenBurton]

Also realistically act on a scale of Teldrassil turns a normal “we fight you, you fight us, then we make peace after some back and forth” war into a total war of extermination when not just resources or land are on the cards but actual survival as a race or nation. Which would have ended only with complete destruction of one or both factions.

Change is a major theme in the expansion. Most severe trauma victims have difficulty letting go of the past -- they are stuck in the past, trapped in their memories which shape their entire worldview, and keep repeating the same experience over and over again, and cannot fully live in the present. The most basic example is for example, the people of one country hating their neighbor because of some past traumatic war or dispute, and unable to see those other people as really even human beings. That is Sylvanas' worldview -- she cannot feel empathy as she used to do, even the novel mentioned she could no longer properly related to things like honor and emotions other than rage and hatred, it's like something inside her has been permanently damaged. Sylvanas manipulated Saurfang, but she was also projecting her genuine beliefs -- that the Alliance could not properly change.

She pointed at the map. There was a large marking in Silithus, the place where the Dark Titan’s blade had pierced the world. “No matter what I do, that will change the balance of power. Azerite sightings are coming in from across the world, Saurfang. We still do not know its full potential, nor does the Alliance. We only know that it will create a new generation of warfare. What will war look like in twenty years? In a hundred?”

Saurfang’s voice had dropped to a low growl. “A hundred years of peace is a worthy goal.” But as soon as the words left his mouth, he wanted to take them back. He knew what Sylvanas would say.

And he would agree with it.

The warchief did not disappoint. “If a hundred years of peace ends with a war that annihilates both sides, it was not a worthy goal. It was a coward’s bargain, trading the future for temporary comfort. The Horde’s children, and their children’s children, will curse our memories as they burn.” Her voice softened, but only slightly. “If life had any mercy at all, you and I would exist in peace for the rest of our days. We both have seen enough of war, but neither of us has seen the last of it.”

The boy king’s plan was a foolish one. He still believed that people could change. Oh, they certainly could. Alleria, Sylvanas, and Vereesa were all proof. But it was not change for the better; at least, Anduin would not see it that way.

Sylvanas was being genuine -- at least, in part, or she believed she was. No doubt she also had her ulterior motives. But she genuinely distrusted the Alliance -- if Before the Storm was also valid. And that is where I believe she is fundamentally wrong and flawed. Her examples of the Alliance hating and mistrusting the Horde, and not forgiving them for past transgressions were legitimate, as is her pointing out the potential escalation and transformation of warfare -- but she is WRONG in asserting that the Alliance -- and her own people -- could NEVER really change.

I was actually swayed by Sylvanas' diatribe -- at first. She was ranting to Saurfang, I believe this, I believe that, something about humans and orcs, blood elves and night elves, the Forsaken and the Alliance. But that is exactly that. She BELIEVES. But sometimes, our deepest and most cherished beliefs, our personal opinions, even those based on past experiences, are wrong. Or at least incomplete, and outdated. The real reason why Saurfang believed her is because perhaps he himself has been traumatized by his son's death, and could not let go of his own past; A Good War started not from Sylvanas' perspective, but Varok remembering Dranosh's death at the hands of the Scourge.

Just because the humans and orcs loathe each other then does not mean they will loathe each other after a hundred years of peace, with new generations taking the place of older and more hardened ones, just compare Anduin and Jaina with Varian and Daelin, for example. Just because night elves and blood elves hated each other does not mean they would hate each other a century from now. Just because the Alliance hates the Forsaken, and vice versa -- does not mean all of them do, or that they will always hate each other for all of eternity, especially if the human reunions from Before the Storm are to be believed. Sylvanas believed that life is feeble, and hope was meaningless, but just because she based her entire worldview on her past experience (as so many trauma victims often tend to do, distrusting people or groups of people, constantly filled with paranoia, unable to see themselves as anything but victims), does not mean that she was necessarily correct in her conclusion.

“Well, you are a fool.” Anduin turned to regard him, surprised by the words. “A fool to think for a moment that I would withdraw my support because you are helping the kaldorei. Do I want my kingdom back? My people to return to their homes? Of course I do! Do I want it badly enough to allow innocent night elves to suffer, when they so generously have helped the Gilneans these last few years? When they mitigated the worgen curse, so we could hang on to ourselves and not get lost in madness? When they fed us, sheltered us, and offered us their home when we had nothing?”

Genn made a dismissive noise, somewhere between a huff and a snarl. “No. I would never betray that kindness by turning my back on them now. Sylvanas doesn’t understand that about the living. And she certainly doesn’t understand the Alliance. She is in for a rude awakening, and you can mark my words.”

For a moment, Anduin simply stared in shock. Then, for the first time in what felt like aeons, he smiled with true pleasure. In the midst of all the bleakness, all the fear and apprehension and horror, here was something good and strong and true to hold on to. And Genn Greymane—he of the quick temper and sullen stubbornness, who had once turned away from the Alliance and lived behind a wall to indulge his own self-interest—he had gifted it to Anduin.

Genn Greymane may or may not be likable -- but he has definitely changed and grown tremendously as a character, from his original appearance, selfish and isolationist, building walls to protect his single kingdom's interests, rather than bridges to support his neighbors in their time of desperation and need. He has been changed by his son's death -- by Anduin himself -- by his experience in another continent living among the night elves, and by his worgen experience. It was why Varian accepted Genn's apologies after initially rejecting him in Wolfheart, and why they became such close friends, and how the worgen were able to defeat Garrosh in the novel, because they embodied the essence of change and adaptation. He even admits in Before the Storm that he was wrong about the Forsaken -- he saw a human and a Forsaken relative interacting, then the human walking away, but without hostility or violence, and this moved him very deeply, causing him to realize the Forsaken were not all monsters. Tyrande and Baine faced this dilemma in Pandaria, Tyrande refusing to believe Garrosh could change, and Baine believing that he could, arguing that everyone at the Trial had made mistakes, and changed tremendously, and would always keep on changing into the future. This was what helped Jaina to repair her friendship with Thrall; in the Tides of War novel, they also discussed the concept of change in their last peaceful meeting, and her last thoughts at Rhonin's funeral were:

All things change, she thought. I, Thrall, Garrosh, Varian...Azeroth.

The point being, Sylvanas was wrong about the Alliance and the Horde, just as she was wrong about the Forsaken. Genn would never have turned against Anduin, his son in all but blood -- nor against Tyrande and Malfurion, his friends. The old Genn would have of course -- but that Genn died a long time ago. Maybe it's not a coincidence that Sylvanas has no son or daughter, nor any desire to raise one, or anyone she truly considers friends. Not all of her people wanted to hate the Alliance, not all of them were willing to be "forsaken" by her living family members, much less to forsake them. Some of the Forsaken chose to abandon Sylvanas because of they could not let go of what they had before, others refused to continue living because they could not be with their loved ones. The Horde at its core from its earliest foundation is about change -- not just about switching leaders, but about changing their hearts and their cultures and worldviews, for better or worse, something Sylvanas could never really understand. Like the Forsaken who were killed at Arathi, even Dark Ranger Velonara chose her true family over Sylvanas in the end, rejecting her beliefs that their people are but slaves to the torment of undeath and embracing her own path:

- I see you remained in Orgrimmar.
We dark rangers were fiercely loyal to Sylvanas. We trusted her... followed her commands.
It is clear that our loyalty was never truly reciprocated.
Some of my sisters and brothers have chosen to remain at the Dark Lady's side. I, and many others, have not.
<Velonara's expression becomes steely. Determined.>
I refuse to be a slave to this torment.
Both the sin'dorei and Forsaken are my kin. I stand with them, and with the Horde.

[VladlTutushkin]

This.

They already had plenty of reason to prior to BfA. The First War alone proved that to most. The third war was supposed to be when the two looked at each other as equals and learned to cooperate DESPITE knowing they would never "get along."

It wasn't. The first, second, even the third wars, and all subsequent betrayals (Up to Garrosh, though even that was tangentially spawned by the Legion's effects on Daenor) - One could feasibly argue they were caused by the Legion, not the Horde, because the Legion controlled every aspect of those wars/battles. (Again, until Garrosh.) The Fourth War, however, was started and fought willfully by the entire Horde.

There is now no way the Alliance or Horde could ever, feasibly, stop warring with one another. Sylvanas could die shouting "I DID EVERYTHING, IT WAS ME, ALL OF YOUR MISERIES WERE PLANNED AND CAUSED BY ME AND ME ALONE" and show proof to convince every person on Azeroth, and still the question of "But why did the Horde go along with it?" would remain.

The Horde is no longer redeemable.

Too bad writers only enjoy making Alliance forgive and forget for no good reason. Like, horde seemingly too “proudl” (read - egotistical and assholish) to try and maybe repay the genocide. Idk, piss off from Ashenvale for a change but Alliance has to nose-dive into a shitty peace treaty because Anduin says so...

[Soon-TM]

Too bad writers only enjoy making Alliance forgive and forget for no good reason.

They could drop the Stupid Evil™ bat on the High King/Exarch, if only for a change... Be careful what you guys are wishing for.

[Frontenac]

The Alliance could. The Horde, not sure. The Alliance has won over the Horde several times and had a chance to crush it for good and each time its leaders have chosen to give it one more chance.Easy to see what is the most forgiving side.

[Resheph]

Not sure how it can happen for the Alliance to forgive the Horde. They came to Azeroth to slaughter their current owners and plunder it then tried to open portals which could have ripped Azeroth apart if the Alliance Expedition didn't close it in time. Then we have Garrosh trying to kill the Alliance during the battle in Northrend then used the Cataclysm to gain an advantage ,tried to use the Powers of an Old God to destroy Azeroth as we have seen in his utopian world and finally caused an invasion from another timeline of an Iron Horde which ended to another Legion invasion. In the end we have Sylvannas who conspired with Death to end all life on Azeroth and the Horde were helping her till that moment when she abandoned them. During that they caused the downfall of a World Tree to empower the Jailer and freeing an Old God. Sometimes I wonder if they have done more damage than all the villains to Azeroth combined.

/thread. No "both sides" bullshit, this is the way it is.

[Daemos daemonium]

Do we hate Germany and the German nation, or Hitler? Do we hate Russia and the Russian nation, or Stalin?

The whole just following orders nonsense really falls apart when your on your third Holocaust. The horde revels in there slaughters and are all to happy to keep them going as long as there leader doesn’t turn inwards with them.

Trying to pawn blame onto a singular leader when the people are more then happy to do such acts no matter who is in charge is nonsense.

[Aresk]

well attack in stormheim was a bit more than a skirmish, it was unprovoked attack on reluctant ally against biggest threat the Azeroth ever faced (or at least in past 10k years), during armistice, and it was AGAINST his direct order, and still Anduin did nothing... he was either not capable or not wiling to do anything, both showing that his leadership is weak at best, or just ilusion at worst, with Genn, who does not hide his animosity towards horde, forsaken and especialy sylvanas, being truly in charge...

Genn wasn't acting out of orders. They were told to engage the Horde if they deemed it necessary. Anduin, knowing Genn and Rogers' histories with the Horde from Gilneas and Southshore, should've clarified what would be deemed necessary. Anduin did officially rebuke them for taking the orders further than intended.

Also, the Legion expansion wasn't the biggest threat Azeroth had faced in the past 10k years. The Burning Legion's only lasting damage was to a few parts of the Broken Isles and a few character deaths. Compare that to WC3, where the Burning Legion devastated Lordaeron and caused lasting harm to areas in Kalimdor, such as Felwood and stretches of Ashenvale. They nearly drove the entire furbolg population insane. And the Warsong took the opportunity to attack the Alliance at that time, despite the Warchief's explicit orders to not engage. By Sylvanas' own logic, the attack on Stormheim was justified.

[VladlTutushkin]

Do we hate Germany and the German nation, or Hitler? Do we hate Russia and the Russian nation, or Stalin?

The answer is simple: the nature of living beings, not only human, is to be lead or to be leading. That's what we are. Extreme majority of us is being lead each day one way or another.

So let me ask this: should we hate a 20 year old German man, who wasn't even alive during WW2? Should we hate the 80 year old woman, who had nothing to do with this? Should we hate a German soldier who fought for Germany in that war, but realistically speaking he didn't have much choice in that? Desertion is a terrible crime in our world, let alone in the world of Warcraft where you have magical spies and what not.

We should not hate the general folk, even if they themselves commited warcrimes. Should be blame them? Partially - of course. But the main villain, the person most responsible, the person that should be hated, is the leader - the one who lead their people to do what they did, who came with the idea and proceeded with it.

Take a general orc. What choice does he really have? Can't desert and run away, because your warchief or whatever else that's currently threatening Azeroth will find you and kill you. Want to play a hero and try to kill the bad warchief? Good luck with that.

The difference between us, human beings, and the story being told by Blizzard, is that we can use our common sense, while story characters are purposefully written to be dumb, blind, ignorant, or having amnesia. Because, well. Blizzard had to make a choice, either go the direction of "Azeroth is special, many powers want to take her, we need to protect her" or "Alliance and Horde in endless war". They decided to go with both, mix them together, resulting in a bullshit of a story.

Shall i remind you how Germany got split in half, put under occupation and also suffered some roughhouse pillaging by occupying forces?

Or how they were not even “their own” country until the fall of the Wall?

Or how their culture was systematically cleansed of fascism and nazism?

If horde goes through the same procedures then sure it can be forgiven.

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They could drop the Stupid Evil™ bat on the High King/Exarch, if only for a change... Be careful what you guys are wishing for.

You mean blowing your asses to kingdom come and then get away with a slap on a wrist, strong worded speech (maybe) and one leader dead? Sign me in!

[Bwonsamdi the Dead]

We really don't need a Fifth War, so... They're going to have to learn to

[Lolites]

Genn wasn't acting out of orders. They were told to engage the Horde if they deemed it necessary. Anduin, knowing Genn and Rogers' histories with the Horde from Gilneas and Southshore, should've clarified what would be deemed necessary. Anduin did officially rebuke them for taking the orders further than intended.

1. attacking someone unprovoked is definitely not necessary, so yes it is DIRECT violation of order
2. in what universe is scolding fair punishment for acting against order and technicaly commiting a war crime (attacking during armistice)?

btw when did it happen? not in game and afaik not in books, i think in before the storm Saurfang actualy mention its concerning Genn wasnt punished...

oh and im sorry, my bad, it was only second biggest threat in last 10k years, or just a tiny invasion by endless demon army that threatened the whole world (if it wasnt stopped at broken isles), bcs that makes sooooooo much difference ...if you are biased alliance apologist, otherwise it does not matter much...

[DargorDraconis]

well,at this point the horde vs alliance war is just forced and with cosmic level treat on the horizont make no sense

[Soon-TM]

You mean blowing your asses to kingdom come and then get away with a slap on a wrist, strong worded speech (maybe) and one leader dead? Sign me in!

Good to hear, at least there is ONE Ally fan who isn't a holier-than-thou Anduin wannabe. It's so refreshing to know that some Ally fans would also be willing to commit mass murder... I knew that all the hand-wringing and hair-tearing about Teldrassil was too overacted to be true

[vilememory]

No, there will never be peace. Not until every one of those misshapen monstrosities is wiped from the Cosmos, and even then the war will not be over. For our enemies wait for us in the Realm of Death itself! Monsters live in paradises of after life, the Alliance cannot rest until all of the realms of death itself are conquered and the spirits of our enemies permanently slain! Never again will we wait for an enemy to attack us, never again will the Alliance sit by passively to wait for some foreign invader to come and try to end our world! We will build great ships, and travel the stars themselves! WE WILL SEEK OUT THESE OTHER RACES AND DESTROY THEM BEFORE THEY KILL US! LET THE ETERNAL CRUSADE BEGIN! DEATH TO THE XENO! GLORY TO THE GOD EMPEROR OF MANKIND aaaah fuck, we just became Warhammer 40K.

[Aresk]

1. attacking someone unprovoked is definitely not necessary, so yes it is DIRECT violation of order
2. in what universe is scolding fair punishment for acting against order and technicaly commiting a war crime (attacking during armistice)?

btw when did it happen? not in game and afaik not in books, i think in before the storm Saurfang actualy mention its concerning Genn wasnt punished...

oh and im sorry, my bad, it was only second biggest threat in last 10k years, or just a tiny invasion by endless demon army that threatened the whole world (if it wasnt stopped at broken isles), bcs that makes sooooooo much difference ...if you are biased alliance apologist, otherwise it does not matter much...

1. It was as necessary as attacking Teldrassil unprovoked. I don't think either attack was necessary or justified, but to the people committing the attacks, they deemed them necessary.
2. Apparently in Azeroth. Grommash's punishment was chopping wood for similar disobedience. Baine, as far as I know, was the harshest Horde leader to punish others for not obeying his orders, and that punishment was being exiled from a city (and is a point of major contention by Horde fans). Jaina of course sentenced Sunreavers to imprisonment or death for not following her orders to leave Dalaran, though there's some question there as to whether she had the authority to give those orders in the first place and involved non-military personnel (whereas it's obvious Anduin, Thrall, and Baine were authority figures over the troops that disobeyed them).

It happened after Stormheim, before Before the Storm. It is mentioned in Chapter 4 of that book. "[Anduin] had forcefully rebuked both [Rogers] and Greymane for taking a recent assignment much further than he had ordered."

I don't think that the Alliance was "in the right" for attacking the Horde in Stormheim. I don't think the Horde was "in the right" for attacking the Alliance in the Barrens in WC3. I also think Anduin should have paid reparations to the Horde for the attack. It seems clear that Rogers, at least, knew the spirit of the orders and was willing to go beyond them for personal gratification, but Anduin did deliver orders that, per the letter of the order, were not violated. And they were punished, though you can obviously argue that the punishment wasn't severe enough.

[Arikara]

Blizzard's writers have been determined to systematically destroy any chance for peace or reconciliation by repeatedly having both factions bash each other in the face with countless war crimes, while writing lead characters as war-mongering fools.

Could they forgive each other? Possibly, but not while the current writing team is in charge.

[Lolites]

Apparently in Azeroth. Grommash's punishment was chopping wood for similar disobedience.

eeeh.... thats a bit different, as they did not have armistice at the time, they were actualy still in a war (thrall was fighting alliance at the time too, both in eastern kingdoms and on troll isladns before kalimdor), so that punishment was just for disobeying, which is kind of appropriate
if you put commiting a war crime on top, it seems too little... (there is no law defining war crimes on azeroth, but surely the seriousnes of action is the same)

and baine banishing people is far more serious punishment than scolding so i dont know why you choose that as example...

[VladlTutushkin]

Good to hear, at least there is ONE Ally fan who isn't a holier-than-thou Anduin wannabe. It's so refreshing to know that some Ally fans would also be willing to commit mass murder... I knew that all the hand-wringing and hair-tearing about Teldrassil was too overacted to be true

Lol. The only reason i am willing to do so is BECAUSE of Teldrassil. Before that and absolutely abhorrent shitfest horde fans started i had no real desire to do anything like that.

- - - Updated - - -

eeeh.... thats a bit different, as they did not have armistice at the time, they were actualy still in a war (thrall was fighting alliance at the time too, both in eastern kingdoms and on troll isladns before kalimdor), so that punishment was just for disobeying, which is kind of appropriate
if you put commiting a war crime on top, it seems too little... (there is no law defining war crimes on azeroth, but surely the seriousnes of action is the same)

and baine banishing people is far more serious punishment than scolding so i dont know why you choose that as example...

And there wasnt an armstice during Stormheim either. Because previous one was broken by the Horde on Ashran, Alliance just didnt turned that into a total war and chose not to escalate but the factions were not at peace during Legion, all cooperation between them prior to Stormheim was outside of any legal agreements.

[HighlordJohnstone]

No, there will never be peace. Not until every one of those misshapen monstrosities is wiped from the Cosmos, and even then the war will not be over. For our enemies wait for us in the Realm of Death itself! Monsters live in paradises of after life, the Alliance cannot rest until all of the realms of death itself are conquered and the spirits of our enemies permanently slain! Never again will we wait for an enemy to attack us, never again will the Alliance sit by passively to wait for some foreign invader to come and try to end our world! We will build great ships, and travel the stars themselves! WE WILL SEEK OUT THESE OTHER RACES AND DESTROY THEM BEFORE THEY KILL US! LET THE ETERNAL CRUSADE BEGIN! DEATH TO THE XENO! GLORY TO THE GOD EMPEROR OF MANKIND aaaah fuck, we just became Warhammer 40K.

WoW is not Warhammer 40k. Idk why you're getting this weird idea of it now that we're going through the Cosmic Chart. Does every fantasy series have to involve Warhammer or Starcraft in some kind of manner once said fantasy series says "fuck it" and goes to space? Really?

- - - Updated - - -

Blizzard's writers have been determined to systematically destroy any chance for peace or reconciliation by repeatedly having both factions bash each other in the face with countless war crimes, while writing lead characters as war-mongering fools.

Could they forgive each other? Possibly, but not while the current writing team is in charge.

What do you mean "current writers"? Did you just forget that all of WoW exists and has had multiple warmongering freaks that have ruined the chances of peace multiple times over? This "current writers" excuse is dumb.

- - - Updated - - -

I feel like the people just forgot that BFA existed. And I don't blame them.

[vilememory]

WoW is not Warhammer 40k. Idk why you're getting this weird idea of it now that we're going through the Cosmic Chart. Does every fantasy series have to involve Warhammer or Starcraft in some kind of manner once said fantasy series says "fuck it" and goes to space? Really?

It was a bloody joke you joyless twit, do you honestly believe people will be happy after they get rid of an entire faction? They want War in their Warcraft, so Blizz will have to pull something out of these ass to appease them.

Infracted.