Do you think the Alliance and the Horde can ever forgive each other for past crimes?

[mysticx]

except people tend to not punish offspring for their parents doings... as I said it requires a generation shift. Same as no one hate germany anymore for what atrocities they made because it's generation shift and it's not the same people who once did the bad deeds.

So yes, people absolutely forgive, unless you are bigoted and blame people of an entire race or nationality for something they personally didn't decide to do or partake in.

A “Generation shift” takes a long time when it involves a race of people who can live past 1000 years (Even without the dragon aspects’ blessing), and a repeated (Repeated ad nauseam, no less) history of just going back to their murderous ways again makes the whole “We’re oh so sorry for what we did”-routine a bit tough to believe.

[Magical Mudcrab]

And will Calia Menethil play a major role in Lordaeron's future? Will the Forsaken eventually accept her as their new leader?

I hope not. What a truly awful character to try and associate with them. She may be undead, but she's not a forsaken.

And Sylvanas while manipulating Saurfang for her own ends -- she is not entirely wrong in her arguments, the very fact the Horde marched against the night elves without hesitation, and the vast majority of continued to fight even long after the Burning of Teldrassil, indicates even back then, most Horde characters did not particularly care much about what happened to the kaldorei, and saw them as their mortal enemies, and neither did the Alliance see the Forsaken as worthy of sympathy:

That will end up being a point of contention. The Horde seeks to pin the blame on Sylvanas, but the truth is that all of the Horde was complicit, with their armies marching upon and burning Teldrassil. They can try and deflect by stating this was not the plan (i.e.: they wanted to win the war, not commit a genocide), but intention means very little when what happened was so much worse.

Queen Talanji and her lingering grievances against Jaina Proudmoore and the other Kul Tirans -- she has not forgotten her father's death. And the Zandalari still want Alliance blood for what happened to their king.

Which is something I dislike about Talanji, the constant indignation at having been attacked while allying with the Alliance's enemy. There are instances where the Alliance was wholly unjustified, the two most well known being the attack on the goblins and the massacre at Camp Taurajo, but what happened to the Zandalari is simply what happens in war. The Alliance did not murder civilians unnecessarily, they went in, demanded surrender, and killed Rastakhan once he refused and invoked the power of Bwonsamdi to try and kill them. That said, this is a part of her character, and she's unlikely to ever forgive the Alliance.

I always felt the Fourth War was ended very abruptly. It seemed unrealistic that most Alliance and Horde leaders just decided to stop fighting -- even without Sylvanas, they had tons of bitter grudges and grievances against each other, even before the Battle for Azeroth began. I understand Jaina and Thrall respect each other -- and are friends again, but why would that affect most Alliance and Horde members? The war missions had the Alliance and Horde fighting across the span of two continents repeatedly, did they just suddenly stop after Sylvanas left them? Perhaps most Alliance and Horde leaders are pro-armistice -- but it seems all but impossible that most of their populaces are pro-armistice as well.

It's because it did end abruptly. The end of the 4th war made absolutely no sense and there was absolutely no reason to forgive the Horde at that point. Why forgive a faction when a large portion of them is willing to stand behind the walls of Orgrimmar, supporting someone who is pro-genocide? How can the Alliance trust the Horde knowing that so many members of the Horde would happily kill them all and would support a leader that ordered the massacre? There is no justification for the Alliance forgiving the Horde, though there is justification for the Alliance being pragmatic and working with the Horde to capturing Sylvanas.

[Kumorii]

Uhm, that's not correct. As a German I can tell you that a lot of people not only hate the children but the childrens children for what happened. Can't tell how often I've been called a Nazi and got attacked in international Chats, Forums or the Bnet when people found out I was German.
Especially a lot of east European people hold a deep grudge in that regard.
Some events in history are so scaring to cultures that they surpass generations to come and Teldrassil would be one of them.

Right, forgot that I have to put in "not everyone" even though I did add that some will continue to judge children for their parents sins... aka bigots. I don't understand why everyone seems to have difficulty in realising that time and generation shifts DO CHANGE past relationships across nations throughout history and thus it wouldn't be so odd for it to happen in WoW.

Everyone should be able to agree on that todays germans shouldn't be prosecuted for happened in the past right? Cool, which means the same can be written in WoW without it being weird or out of place... however as I mentioned at the start of this, it requires a leader change and a generation shift in-game... which I think can only be achieved by a time skip, which I think is a bad thing to implement.

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A “Generation shift” takes a long time when it involves a race of people who can live past 1000 years (Even without the dragon aspects’ blessing), and a repeated (Repeated ad nauseam, no less) history of just going back to their murderous ways again makes the whole “We’re oh so sorry for what we did”-routine a bit tough to believe.

Absolutely... if you see my first post it was about what is required for "forgiveness" happen... not that it should or is feasible to implement.

[Thorqin]

So... you think that being constantly cucked in an MMO that costs 15 bucks per month and 60 (?) bucks per expansion is norm for one faction?

Then you are the delusional one. The fact Blizz are so complacent and biased about the state of the game does not make it any better, its just their lack of self awareness and "no negativity in the dojo" rule aka the Ivory Tower principle.

The overwhelming majority of players don't give a rip about lore and will continue to pay $15 regardless of it. A small minority are the ones I referred to, who were foolish enough to believe they would get some epic revenge on the Horde.

They got cucked out of it, just like they got cucked out of revenge for Theramore. Remember the "we will end you line" at the end of SoO, LMAO, how'd that work out? Hold the L as a faction and like it.

[VladlTutushkin]

The overwhelming majority of players don't give a rip about lore and will continue to pay $15 regardless of it. A small minority are the ones I referred to, who were foolish enough to believe they would get some epic revenge on the Horde.

They got cucked out of it, just like they got cucked out of revenge for Theramore. Remember the "we will end you line" at the end of SoO, LMAO, how'd that work out? Hold the L as a faction and like it.

I still fail to understand why you think its a norm. And aside from that, same can be said about sylvanas fanatics and anti-Council horde players btw.

All in all you just trying to troll i suppose? Comes out really pathetic so far.

[Thorqin]

I still fail to understand why you think its a norm. And aside from that, same can be said about sylvanas fanatics and anti-Council horde players btw.

All in all you just trying to troll i suppose? Comes out really pathetic so far.

What you fail to understand is that the Alliance's revenge that its fanboys wanted was never going to happen, they fed their delusions by thinking Blizz was going to give them a big epic revenge fantasy. Didn't happen. If you don't get that by now, you never will.

[VladlTutushkin]

What you fail to understand is that the Alliance's revenge that its fanboys wanted was never going to happen, they fed their delusions by thinking Blizz was going to give them a big epic revenge fantasy. Didn't happen. If you don't get that by now, you never will.

So only horde allowed to have epic revenges and victories while Alliance should either stop playing (as i did) or “enjoy” cuckoldry. Is that what you are implying?

[Orby]

If the writers will it they can... :P

[Gann Stonespire]

Considering the Alliance refused to acknowledge their crimes, no.

[Soon-TM]

Alliance is too pig headed and narrow minded to see any flaws they have done and apologize to anyone who is "beneath" them.

Well, that's the core of Alliance RP'ing.

[MikeBogina]

As long as the Alliance get away with their crimes and the Horde doesn't, there probably will never be forgiveness. The Horde will most likely fall under the reign of the Alliance at some point, the Tauren or at least Baine seem to be quite fine with that.

The Kaldorei taught Druidism to the Horde.

Cenarius taught the Yaungol

They traded wood, gave them territories and saved the life of one of their races

What territories and when did they save their lives? The Horde fought all over the forests of Ashenvale, fighting the Legion and afterwards settled in the deserted lands as penance afterwards. They later claimed Azshara as there was no inhabitants(thanks to Illidan) it wasn't contested.

And despite all this the Horde set fire to Teldrazzil, when it had already surrendered and no PC from the Horde seemed to bother in the least this except Barock.

Despite what? The Night Elves instead of staying neutral, joined the Alliance and began hostilities with the Horde in Ashenvale, ended their trade because of Varian not liking the Orcs. Oh and then harbored the worgen who basically go against Anduin's orders and attack the Horde on sight. Just remember that Rogers ordered the killing of drowning Orcs, who couldn't fight back in Pandaria(no mercy mate)

his is how the Horde treats those who try to lend a hand.

You're kidding right? the Night Elves were extremely hostile to the Orcs and refused to return the favor of the Horde helping save their forests and well. There wouldn't even be any problems between the NEs and Orcs if the NEs would give some of Ashenvale to the Horde for their contribution... wait yes there would be, because the NEs joined the enemy of the Orcs :/

[Powerogue]

I do think we're at the end of the war as a main story beat, they made a point to call it "The end of the fourth war" and everything. Of course bitterness still lingers, it provides a convenient excuse to keep warmode as a mechanic.

I am most interested to see what befalls Tyrande. I don't think she'll become a villain, but let's just say she was voted "most likely to off herself doing something reckless yet badass" by all of her peers, including her husband.

[Squigglyo]

If you look at real world examples you can see how all out war can eventually lead to peace.

Its been however long since WW2 and Germany, Japan and Italy are allies now and no one is calling for invasions.

The Horde and the Alliance have fought many times and most of the leaders have talked about wanting peace, finding common ground and even being friends with the other side (Baine, Lorthemar, Thrall, Anduin, Pandaren, etc).


Actually trying to list out the leaders looking for peace, it seems that the Horde seem more interested in peace (by number of leaders) than the Alliance do.

[Aresk]

Despite what? The Night Elves instead of staying neutral, joined the Alliance and began hostilities with the Horde in Ashenvale, ended their trade because of Varian not liking the Orcs. Oh and then harbored the worgen who basically go against Anduin's orders and attack the Horde on sight. Just remember that Rogers ordered the killing of drowning Orcs, who couldn't fight back in Pandaria(no mercy mate)

I like how, in the same paragraph, you say that night elves should have stayed neutral and then bring up Gilneas, who were neutral until the Horde nearly exterminated the entire kingdom, forcing them to seek refuge in Teldrassil among the Alliance. Genn wouldn't have even been on that airship to attack the Horde if the Horde hadn't attacked Gilneas first (not that it would've made a difference since Rogers still would've: as you pointed out, she loves killing Horde; I guess having your parents butchered by the Forsaken has that effect on someone).

[Ardenaso]

As long as the Alliance get away with their crimes and the Horde doesn't, there probably will never be forgiveness. The Horde will most likely fall under the reign of the Alliance at some point, the Tauren or at least Baine seem to be quite fine with that.


Cenarius taught the Yaungol


What territories and when did they save their lives? The Horde fought all over the forests of Ashenvale, fighting the Legion and afterwards settled in the deserted lands as penance afterwards. They later claimed Azshara as there was no inhabitants(thanks to Illidan) it wasn't contested.


Despite what? The Night Elves instead of staying neutral, joined the Alliance and began hostilities with the Horde in Ashenvale, ended their trade because of Varian not liking the Orcs. Oh and then harbored the worgen who basically go against Anduin's orders and attack the Horde on sight. Just remember that Rogers ordered the killing of drowning Orcs, who couldn't fight back in Pandaria(no mercy mate)


You're kidding right? the Night Elves were extremely hostile to the Orcs and refused to return the favor of the Horde helping save their forests and well. There wouldn't even be any problems between the NEs and Orcs if the NEs would give some of Ashenvale to the Horde for their contribution... wait yes there would be, because the NEs joined the enemy of the Orcs :/

if I'm not mistaken the Night Elves joined the Alliance because the Warsong Clan continued to attack them and they didn't have the WC3 immortality so they asked for help from the Alliance

[MikeBogina]

if I'm not mistaken the Night Elves joined the Alliance because the Warsong Clan continued to attack them and they didn't have the WC3 immortality so they asked for help from the Alliance

There's no official point of when they joined the Alliance, but there's a mention that it could be because of the continued logging by the horde of Ashenvale, nothing about attacking. So they joined the enemy of the Orcs, to then attack the Orcs.

The area of the logging if you remember, is the easternmost of ashenvale, a stones throw from Ogrimmar.

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I like how, in the same paragraph, you say that night elves should have stayed neutral and then bring up Gilneas, who were neutral until the Horde nearly exterminated the entire kingdom, forcing them to seek refuge in Teldrassil among the Alliance.

One had good relations with the Horde and joined the Alliance in spite of that. One had horrible relations and joined the Alliance out of necessity. Not the same thing, not even close lol.

Genn wouldn't have even been on that airship to attack the Horde if the Horde hadn't attacked Gilneas first (not that it would've made a difference since Rogers still would've: as you pointed out, she loves killing Horde; I guess having your parents butchered by the Forsaken has that effect on someone).

Genn and Rogers being on the airship isn't the problem, Genn and Rogers taking their personal grudge and going against their king's orders and attacking the Horde fleet and attempting to kill the Horde leader during a WORLD ENDING INVASION is the problem.

Their actions have consequences and if Anduin wasn't going to punish them, then the Horde would have to punish the Alliance.

[VladlTutushkin]

There's no official point of when they joined the Alliance, but there's a mention that it could be because of the continued logging by the horde of Ashenvale, nothing about attacking. So they joined the enemy of the Orcs, to then attack the Orcs.

The area of the logging if you remember, is the easternmost of ashenvale, a stones throw from Ogrimmar.

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One had good relations with the Horde and joined the Alliance in spite of that. One had horrible relations and joined the Alliance out of necessity. Not the same thing, not even close lol.


Genn and Rogers being on the airship isn't the problem, Genn and Rogers taking their personal grudge and going against their king's orders and attacking the Horde fleet and attempting to kill the Horde leader during a WORLD ENDING INVASION is the problem.

Their actions have consequences and if Anduin wasn't going to punish them, then the Horde would have to punish the Alliance.

So Horde should "punish" the Alliance, but when Alliance wants to punish them horde its "too much"...

Also lets entertain this idea. Anduin puts them both in prison. Okay. Would Sylvanas just shrugged her shoulders and told the Jailer - "Well... We have to shut down that whole "destroy the Afterlife and Life plan cause i now totes have no reason to attack and have sucha respect for Anduin and Alliance that you will have to stay hungry, denied all those tasty souls..."

[Soon-TM]

So Horde should "punish" the Alliance, but when Alliance wants to punish them horde its "too much"...

Also lets entertain this idea. Anduin puts them both in prison. Okay. Would Sylvanas just shrugged her shoulders and told the Jailer - "Well... We have to shut down that whole "destroy the Afterlife and Life plan cause i now totes have no reason to attack and have sucha respect for Anduin and Alliance that you will have to stay hungry, denied all those tasty souls..."

It would have robbed Sylv of her main argument to convince Saurfang about the necessity of the WoT though... assuming that A Good War is still canon, because everything Sylv is usually retconned three or four times in as many years.

[VladlTutushkin]

It would have robbed Sylv of her main argument to convince Saurfang about the necessity of the WoT though... assuming that A Good War is still canon, because everything Sylv is usually retconned three or four times in as many years.

Saurfang was dumbed down to an IQ of a monkey to be convinced by her anyway AND not to throw a Mak'Gora challenge at her straight after Teldrassil burning. She wanted those souls, she would have started the war regardless. Actions of Genn and Rogers were not even remotely important at this point, we were on a full course towards Shadowlands and Jaile had his "deadline" which she was pushing. Sure she brought that up as one of arguments (not the only one even) for Saurfang but as i said, that wouldnt have changed anything aside from Anduin punishing Genn and Rogers and hence alienating gilneans and potentially making her job that much easier since Alliance would have started bickering inside.

[Feanoro]

Damn near every Alliance "crime" was some variant of fighting back against omnicidal lunatics or holding them accountable for their rampages.

Not bothering to read the whole thread, but I'm betting it's mostly Hordies sobbing that the Alliance is the REAL villain because raaaaaaaaaacism, despite the Horde having a body count that does the Legion proud.

Can the Alliance forgive the Horde? Sorry, have you missed the story since WC3? The Alliance forgives and forgets mass slaughter and entire zones being razed every time the Horde gets bored.

Should the Alliance forgive the Horde? Hell no, they should understand by now it's the single biggest threat to them and Azeroth and act on that. Since game mechanics trump lore, and Blizz is too cowardly to shake things up with a true underdog Horde, forced to rebuild after being crushed (you'd think Hordies would love that, but the power fantasy of ORC SMASH is apparently better), it will forever be the status quo:

Horde loses characters? You don't say?

Horde fans: We want to crush the Alliance for existing! DA WER IN WERCREFT!
Blizz writers, well known for being hippies: War is bad, maaaaaaaaaan.
Horde fans: BLOOD! THUNDER! CHICKEN TENDIES!
Blizz writers: Your endgame is everyone NotHorde dead. Alliance endgame is you stop murdering them for a while. Your endgame can't happen.
Horde fans: We lust for mountains of skulls and rivers of blood! Also, don't you dare blame the war on our aggression.
Blizz writers: OK, Alliance wins because we're not flushing our business model. Everything is blamed on $hordecharacter so the Horde itself is blameless.
Horde fans: *surprised Pikachu face*