View Poll Results: Do you think the Alliance and the Horde can ever forgive each other for past crimes?

Voters
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  • Yes, they can forgive each other

    42 24.56%
  • No, they can't forgive each other

    82 47.95%
  • Other / Not sure / It's complicated

    47 27.49%
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  1. #121
    Here we go again in another chapter of the ever ongoing "We don't know the lore" saga. It's glad to see most of you gathered here.
    Let's just get on with it.

    About Garithos,
    I'd just say lol. Enough has been said, go play whatever version of Warcraft III you prefer.
    Then please decide on a stance: Garithos is either responsible for Silvermoon's mistrust of humans and by proxy the Alliance, or does not count as an Alliance rep for anything involving Sylvanas and the gutting of his forces.
    Also, Garithos was done for by the time Sylvanas rescues him from the Dreadlord's mind control.

    About anything Gilneas,
    Sylvanas takes over Forsaken control well after Garrosh started the Gilnean campaign.
    If the de facto leader of a faction tells you to go conquer a place, given the overall aligment of the Forsaken still being lawful evil/ neutral evil (as in they follow orders and operate to their own interests), you tend to do it regardless.

    There's also this fun piece of trivia where Lorna Crowley gets bargained for his father's surrender and does not get killed on the spot, as if the Forsaken are evil and ruthless but correctly written in a proper overarching plot.
    I wonder what changed from there to here.

    So anyway, the worgen plague and the forsaken assault fail to take Gilneas, Genn gets the kingdom back into the Alliance's fold, Gilneas gets occupied by some remnants of the Black Dragonflight and the kingdom gets later declared as fallen.

    Let's not mention that during Cataclysm the Horde and the Alliance are at war by will of the High King of the Alliance, war declared during a possibly world ending conflict as it happened during the Wrathgate incident.
    Although Garrosh escalated the conflict heavily, for sure.

    We then jump a few years and get to the Legion invasion where Genn, unprovoked, uses one of the Alliance military asset to bomb the fleet of the then-leader of the Horde as it gets deployed as the only sizable military force on the homefront.
    And does not get punished for it. At all. The valkyries subplot as muddied as it is acting as the only justification for such an act.
    Later, the newly appointed High King of the Alliance and son of the former High King does nothing but a mild reprimand and Genn gets away with it unpunished.

    So then we get to the Azerite acquisition in Silithus where the Alliance starts attacking goblin miners and the War of Thorns starts because, and this is where everything goes ass backwards basically, Sylvanas wants to ensure the Horde survival. As it was, nothing - not even a world ending threat - would prevent the Alliance with its vast powers to act against the Horde, as proven throughout the entirety of Forsaken history and the last few years of diplomacy between the two factions.
    Of course at this point the BfA 4d Sylvanas enters the scene so yeah.

    And then we get to the core of the issue: the Horde genocides.
    The Horde blighted Southshore, Gilneas, manabombed Brennadan, bombed Brennadan and burned Teldrassil.
    Theramore is a highly sensible military target and had plenty of time to evacuate whatever there was to move away from the city. The rest can be seen from bad to horrible and on some I'd agree on.

    However, getting the things the Alliance did in war times towards Horde targets getting washed off of any kind of guilt and blame either by the plot or by later retcons, such as the egregious Vulpera Purge Squads that ill-aligned to the always do good Alliance, kind of shifts the weight of everything around.

    So at the end of the day no, there cannot be any forgiveness. Because by design of the lore one side can do no wrong or evil, and has nothing to be forgiven of.
    Please remember all of this when the words Horde and Favoritism get placed one next to the other.

    Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.

  2. #122
    Immortal Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    And horde fans are used to dogpiling, witch-hunting and generalizing. See, i can do that too. You DO love your grey emo elf so much
    Considering that you can't provide a single quote from me that fulfills the above criteria, I'd stop embarrassing myself if I was in your place.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Jailer's first ever appearance involved chucking him [Baine] off a cliff for being too shit to even qualify as a Maw trash mob.

  3. #123
    Warchief Lupinemancer's Avatar
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    That's gonna be tough, the Horde has commited a LOT of atrocities, so it can be hard to forgive them.

  4. #124
    Immortal Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lupinemancer View Post
    That's gonna be tough, the Horde has commited a LOT of atrocities, so it can be hard to forgive them.
    So has the Alliance, even if their funky things are usually ignored. And no, forgiveness is neither necessary nor desirable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Jailer's first ever appearance involved chucking him [Baine] off a cliff for being too shit to even qualify as a Maw trash mob.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    So has the Alliance, even if their funky things are usually ignored. And no, forgiveness is neither necessary nor desirable.
    So you’d rather have another war and lose Silvermoon or something?

  6. #126
    Immortal Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    So you’d rather have another war and lose Silvermoon or something?
    Why not? If it gets us rid of that pathetic bunch of Anduin footstools aka horde council, I'm all for it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Jailer's first ever appearance involved chucking him [Baine] off a cliff for being too shit to even qualify as a Maw trash mob.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Why not? If it gets us rid of that pathetic bunch of Anduin footstools aka horde council, I'm all for it.
    You just say that because you dont know how much shit Blizz can package with the "deal". I also expected that after a "surprise genocide" Alliance would get rid of Anduin and his "peace even if we have to sacrifice our own people" party but it only got larger somehow.

  8. #128
    to the point OP made on calia:

    no thank at all on her playing any role on the future of lordaeron. Also lordaeron is gone and done, there is no future for a dead kingdom even if some of it's people are... well not alive, but around. They are forsaken now and some only care about lordaeron for their families.

    Calia has no right to being "queen" of anything, seeing as she abandoned lordaeron and her people many years ago. Even her surname means nothing seeing as it was that surname that destroyed lordaeron and it's people. Why would any forsaken be happy or accept another Menethil after what arthas personally did to them?

    as for her being leader of forsaken, again absolutely not. Would be completely bad writing and forced.

    She has no knowledge or experience to bring to the forsaken or horde. She is not a horde character and she is the complete antithesis to the forsaken: looks, powers, undeath form, how she was ressurected and so on. She is NOT forsaken, even derek is more a forsaken character than she ever will be.

    like how the hell are the horde leaders just cool with her being in the room for horde council meetings? like wtf are they just trusting her or accepting her "advise" when she has nothing to give to the horde?

    and the whole "oh she'll guide/help the forsaken" is so dumb seeing as she wasn't even anything more than a priest. Alonsus Faol should be the one helping/guiding new forsaken, he's perfect for from his experience and knowledge. How the hell did Calia "help" the undead kaldorei when she knows nothing to help them with? she doesn't even know anything about night elves on top of nothing on being undead -_-
    Last edited by voidox; 2021-02-20 at 04:26 PM.

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    I hope not. What a truly awful character to try and associate with them. She may be undead, but she's not a forsaken.



    That will end up being a point of contention. The Horde seeks to pin the blame on Sylvanas, but the truth is that all of the Horde was complicit, with their armies marching upon and burning Teldrassil. They can try and deflect by stating this was not the plan (i.e.: they wanted to win the war, not commit a genocide), but intention means very little when what happened was so much worse.



    Which is something I dislike about Talanji, the constant indignation at having been attacked while allying with the Alliance's enemy. There are instances where the Alliance was wholly unjustified, the two most well known being the attack on the goblins and the massacre at Camp Taurajo, but what happened to the Zandalari is simply what happens in war. The Alliance did not murder civilians unnecessarily, they went in, demanded surrender, and killed Rastakhan once he refused and invoked the power of Bwonsamdi to try and kill them. That said, this is a part of her character, and she's unlikely to ever forgive the Alliance.



    It's because it did end abruptly. The end of the 4th war made absolutely no sense and there was absolutely no reason to forgive the Horde at that point. Why forgive a faction when a large portion of them is willing to stand behind the walls of Orgrimmar, supporting someone who is pro-genocide? How can the Alliance trust the Horde knowing that so many members of the Horde would happily kill them all and would support a leader that ordered the massacre? There is no justification for the Alliance forgiving the Horde, though there is justification for the Alliance being pragmatic and working with the Horde to capturing Sylvanas.
    Well, most Germans and Japanese were arguably complicit in their country's atrocities, and they are the best of friends of the United States today, with thriving economies and progressive societies today. Alliance members wanting to exterminate most Horde characters is only not unrealistic, but also counterproductive. Even from an objective viewpoint, the Horde has enough unique elements that might provide the unusual advantages needed in another global war from an outside threat; the Alliance is kind of blandly what they would expect, the Horde is much more unpredictable and complicated.
    "Always you speak. Never do you listen! You ignore the lessons of Pandaria! You see, there is balance in all things. Wisdom etched in our very fur: Black and white. Darkness and light. When the last emperor hid our land from the rest of the world, he also preserved...our ancient enemy, the mantid. So it is with your Alliance and your Horde. They are not strong despite one another; they are strong BECAUSE of one another. You mistake your greatest strength for weakness. Do you see this?"

  10. #130
    After Gilneas it would have been a tough call. After Teldrassil though? The Horde would have had to have tossed out the Forsaken, and joined the Alliance in genocide. The only good undead, is a completely obliterated undead.
    once the Forsaken have been dealt with, only then could talks progress, and maybe forgiveness would come in time.
    Last edited by Shadowferal; 2021-03-03 at 12:15 AM.

  11. #131
    The Insane Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OwenBurton View Post
    Well, most Germans and Japanese were arguably complicit in their country's atrocities, and they are the best of friends of the United States today, with thriving economies and progressive societies today. Alliance members wanting to exterminate most Horde characters is only not unrealistic, but also counterproductive. Even from an objective viewpoint, the Horde has enough unique elements that might provide the unusual advantages needed in another global war from an outside threat; the Alliance is kind of blandly what they would expect, the Horde is much more unpredictable and complicated.
    You are aware that the gap between Ww2 and today is insanely huge when compered to any of the conflicts in wow right? And even with that gap there are long held grudges like with the Japanese and the Chinese/Korea.

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    You are aware that the gap between Ww2 and today is insanely huge when compered to any of the conflicts in wow right? And even with that gap there are long held grudges like with the Japanese and the Chinese/Korea.
    Also Germany and Japan were de facto occupied by the US for quite a bit of time.

    For me what the Alliance should have always tried to do was break the Horde up (which is the plan Sylvanas had presented to Saurfang). It should be entirely possible to get both the Blood Elves and the Tauren to break off the Horde by offering the proper reparations.

  13. #133
    Still don't really see what the alliance has to forgive tbh.

    Mind you i play horde. Dalaran, was no genocide or anything of that matter. Lorewise! Taurajo? They could have left beforehand. But thatis the most "evil" thing the alliance did.

    Horde slaughtered an entire race. Used an Atom Bomb equivalent on theramore and generally are the reason for every war ever.
    It is just not realistic, that the horde has any backing from their people anymore. A country cannot gain from war long term if they do not win the war.
    And by the nature of wow, noone CAN win. It is so stupid.

    As alliance. No. I don't think they could or should ever forgive us. It is like forgiving Nazi Germany. They had to split germany up. And completly remodel it for it to be a trustworthy country again and that too loooooong. Also basically every leader as executed or imprisoned forever.

    There is no reason for the alliance to forgive anything. And there is nothing the horde has to forgive. Peace sure. Friends. Doubtfull.
    Maybe with the bloodelves, nightborne and tauren... but the rest? Why?

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Why not? If it gets us rid of that pathetic bunch of Anduin footstools aka horde council, I'm all for it.
    Since you obviously hate your faction so much, why not get rid of it completely? Azeroth would be enjoying more then a decade of peace if it wasn't for the Horde Warchiefs starting wars and then allying with evil cosmic forces to destroy the planet/reality.

    The damage Garrosh and Sylvanas have done to the Horde's mindsets is seemingly irreperable. "If it doesn't tell me to go slaughter civilians, it's not my Horde, but don't you dare call us evil!!!", is the Horde's honest demand of what they want the game to be for them now.

  15. #135
    I don't think it is relevant if they can forgive each other, at least to peace.

    The most important thing is an extended armistice. An armistice does not happen out of a desire for peace in these situations as much as it happens because both sides are out of resources. Realistically they should have been a long, long time ago but for narrative reasons Blizzard has exercised extreme suspension of disbelief on this issue. Yet with BfA they did take the moment to have Anduin declare that the Alliance is almost out of people (because you know, they could not possibly have the Alliance feel like they are actually winning).
    If the Horde is also presented to not be able to maintain a war footing (no idea if there is evidence of that in any of the novels) then there is grounds for a longer truce.

    What brings sustained peace though is not forgiveness. People in Europe did not exactly forgive the Germans for WW2. What forged peace was economic interdependence and an increasing quality of life that made the cost of war far too significant.
    When your life is crappy, it's easier to be convinced to risk it in order to go to war. The life of the average Horde member (and heck, of most Stormwind humans as well) is very much crappy.

  16. #136
    Forgive eachother? Doubtful.

    Stop fighting? Absolutely.

    In the Eastern Kingdoms alone the Forsaken/Blood Elves and Humans/Dwarves/Gnomes just need to leave eachother alone.

    There's nothing for any of them in any of the other sides' territories
    Corporate wishes everyone a happy new year

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    You are aware that the gap between Ww2 and today is insanely huge when compered to any of the conflicts in wow right? And even with that gap there are long held grudges like with the Japanese and the Chinese/Korea.
    Agreed, not to mention that in 300 years most Horde members that participated in the fourth war will be dead, while the Night Elves who survived it will not. I don't think they'll ever forgive the Horde.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by LarryFromHumanResources View Post
    Forgive eachother? Doubtful.

    Stop fighting? Absolutely.

    In the Eastern Kingdoms alone the Forsaken/Blood Elves and Humans/Dwarves/Gnomes just need to leave eachother alone.

    There's nothing for any of them in any of the other sides' territories
    Tell that to the Horde who has been invading Night Elf territory since Warcraft 3.

  18. #138
    If Europeans can make a union after thousands of years of war, than so can Alliance and Horde.

  19. #139
    I'm sure they can. Could take decades or eons though, who knows?
    Well met!
    Quote Originally Posted by Iem View Post
    Man even if Blizzard gave players bars of gold, they would complain that they were too heavy.

  20. #140
    Legendary! Logwyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    You are aware that the gap between Ww2 and today is insanely huge when compered to any of the conflicts in wow right? And even with that gap there are long held grudges like with the Japanese and the Chinese/Korea.
    The differences between Japanese, Chinese, and Koreans have last way long and began way before WW2.


    In wow will all depend on how the writers want it to go.

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