Do you think the Alliance and the Horde can ever forgive each other for past crimes?

[Shadowferal]

What's the alternative? Genocide your enemy and hope that creates peace? Do remind me how that worked out for Sylvanas. Peace can only come about if both sides lay down their swords and stop fighting. Call it "running away" but the Night Elves already stood their ground, and they lost. Lost their homes and their land, they can try to reclaim them or settle elsewhere. You can either bury the hatchet or choose to dig it into your opponent face and hope that does it, and for the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of WoW's history it very specifically HASN'T done it. I don't know what skewed reality you live in where this "fight till the last man" mentality is sound.

But it's not about "both sides." This is you giving forsaken a free pass to mass murder and vainly attempting to shine up that shit by talking peace...a peace that means you standing and dying without throwing a punch, or running away every time the forsaken come to take your land by murder. ...coward.

[Ohvul]

The alliance are too selfish to stand together serving a purpose higher than their individual racial ideologies.

The horde while apparently more primitive in their political dealings at least have the common sense to stand their ground and support their side during times of war (thank you hitler, I mean garrosh for teaching us this lesson). The horde would rather win the war then fight amongst themselves finding a moral purpose... the alliance??? Their largest army / foothold on kalimdor was just obliterated, that continent is for the taking to any horde force willing.

Eastern Kingdoms? What vital resources warrant the taking of lordaeron?? The morality behind giving the undead a final rest? Go further south and you approach lands where even the dwarves didn't want to cultivate resources aside from what can be taken out of a mountain. Even further south? Same thing in Blackrock... you have to go all the way from wetlands to stranglethorn before you reach a large enough source of resources to power a large time-scaled war of the factions. With the current geographical layout of the factions an equally unified alliance has no chance against the horde. Any future battles which occur absolutely cannot be on alliance soil, but the alliance doesn't even have a proper front for that to be the case, the alliance wouldn't even be able to fund a proper war with the horde at this point.

[Ardenaso]

Genn, Jaina, and Vereesa are yet to be held accountable for their crimes

[Dellis0991]

Genn, Jaina, and Vereesa are yet to be held accountable for their crimes

Everyone got blood on their hands...

[VladlTutushkin]

I hope this happens because I really want to see the Alliance on the other end of the stick and Yrel deserves a good role after WoD.

Oh for sure. Just dont expect to actually punish Alliance for that. You can like, kill Genn... maybe. And be beaten, smashed, humiliated, rolled over and given swirlies for entire expansion before you kill him.

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It was about time Ally fans admitted to it

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Not even that, a slap in the wrist at most

What always disgusted me is how horde fans equate war to genocide. Thats why i changed my mind about peace and war in WoW - not because of NPCs but because of players being complete degenerates and fucktards.

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The alliance are too selfish to stand together serving a purpose higher than their individual racial ideologies.

The horde while apparently more primitive in their political dealings at least have the common sense to stand their ground and support their side during times of war (thank you hitler, I mean garrosh for teaching us this lesson). The horde would rather win the war then fight amongst themselves finding a moral purpose... the alliance??? Their largest army / foothold on kalimdor was just obliterated, that continent is for the taking to any horde force willing.

Eastern Kingdoms? What vital resources warrant the taking of lordaeron?? The morality behind giving the undead a final rest? Go further south and you approach lands where even the dwarves didn't want to cultivate resources aside from what can be taken out of a mountain. Even further south? Same thing in Blackrock... you have to go all the way from wetlands to stranglethorn before you reach a large enough source of resources to power a large time-scaled war of the factions. With the current geographical layout of the factions an equally unified alliance has no chance against the horde. Any future battles which occur absolutely cannot be on alliance soil, but the alliance doesn't even have a proper front for that to be the case, the alliance wouldn't even be able to fund a proper war with the horde at this point.

Lol, allow me to quickly debunk that.
1) Numbers dosent matter in WoW and never mattered when it comes to armies or war resources.
2) By that logic horde should have long since ran out of resources before BfA but they never even slowed down despite plot harping on how strained on stuff they were.
3) Alliance is “Too selfish”? What are you smoking? The faction is unnaturally selfless if anything and nobody seems to care about their own people.

[Sluvs]

The horde committed genocide on Teldrassil.

I mean, you can talk your way out of many things. But a genocide... well that is a little bit hard.

Due to how the horde was written, they are always the aggressors. I believe peace is possible. But forgiveness? Frienship?

Nah man, that ship has sailed

[VladlTutushkin]

The Forsaken WERE held accountable, they LOST the war, the Kaldorei themselves held them accountable in Darkshore by winning the warfront, I'm not giving anyone a free pass, but YOU are asking the Horde to be held accountable after the fact when they already have been with the people they've lost, the resources poured into a black hole.

If I was a coward I'd be preaching that instead of protecting itself DURING a war the Alliance should keel over and let the Horde do what they want, that's not what I'm saying they should do and it isn't what they did. They fought and won.

The allies held Germany accountable after the first world war, and the reperations placed on the country is largely accounted as attributing to the rise of the nazi party and we both know what happened next.

The Night Elves and Gilneans lost their homes, that's a fact, and they can either be rational and choose a new ones that WON'T cause tensions or be nationalistic and choose ones that will.

If I was a coward I'd be asking them to pick a new one AGAIN should the Horde come knocking but that's not what I'm asking. They can stand their ground whereever they end up and should it come to that, the Horde invading once more, they'll have every right to defend themselves.

Should they win then they'd also have every right to tell the Horde to fuck off because they'd be in a position it wouldn't make sense for the Horde to be in, the Horde would've declared war PURELY out of aggression and hate.

I'm not saying anyone should "run away foreva like little puny babies" I'm saying that in victory you are in a position to be rational.

Your view of the world would see the Gilneans kick the Forsaken out of Silverpine and Gilneas something the Forsaken would be unwilling to take lying down because "muh cowardism, we can't give them a free pass" before we know it there's another territorial tug of war going on one that'll lead to a fifth war.

You just being insane now, you know? Like entirely retarded. Not even just “slightly crazy” but “absolutely fucked up in the head so much so that you may need a doctor”.

Night elves abandoning their homes in Kalimdor would be like blood elves leaving Silvermoon or Forsaken leaving Lordaeron as i already mentioned. And horde ALREADY has no good reason to invade them since they have abundant resource outside of Ashenvale. Plus they also lost any right to argue from “morality position” after a genocide.
[Infraction]

[Ardenaso]

Everyone got blood on their hands...

the difference is that the Horde actually gets punished and made to do reprisals while these ones just get a slap on the wrist

[VladlTutushkin]

the difference is that the Horde actually gets punished and made to do reprisals while these ones just get a slap on the wrist

Horde gets reprisal? You mean when they blame it all one a single person, get away with whatever they did and get to keep the land they stole?

I am all for that “punishment” for Alliance if they get to tear your guts off and slap you in the face with them. Oh and do a genocide or two while they at it. And then humiliated you in your own playing field. Like outplay trolls in their jungles and beat them entirely or crush orcs in “honorable” direct battle and send them running in fear.

[Dellis0991]

the difference is that the Horde actually gets punished and made to do reprisals while these ones just get a slap on the wrist

The Alliance punished themselves, Genn lost his kingdom, his son. The dwarves been punishing themselves since the 3 hammer war, the gnomes have fucked themselves twice over, the night elves been fucking themselves since the war of the ancients, the humans since after Thoradin walked away have shot themselves in foot repeatedly because apparently a bloodthirsty barbarian had better functioning brain than the whole collective of humanity. Draenei got fucked because they are draenei.

[Shadowferal]

You just being insane now, you know? Like entirely retarded. Not even just “slightly crazy” but “absolutely fucked up in the head so much so that you may need a doctor”.

Night elves abandoning their homes in Kalimdor would be like blood elves leaving Silvermoon or Forsaken leaving Lordaeron as i already mentioned. And horde ALREADY has no good reason to invade them since they have abundant resource outside of Ashenvale. Plus they also lost any right to argue from “morality position” after a genocide.

You're saying what I was thinking. But the guy seems to imagine some bullshit kumbaya hold hands and turn the other cheek...utter nonsense.
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Had the horde been truly interested in peace they'd have disavowed the Forsaken altogether; told the undead leaders that Sylvanus' head on a pole would be the price for less harsher penalty and probation indefinitely.

[Shadowferal]

The Alliance punished themselves, Genn lost his kingdom, his son. The dwarves been punishing themselves since the 3 hammer war, the gnomes have fucked themselves twice over, the night elves been fucking themselves since the war of the ancients, the humans since after Thoradin walked away have shot themselves in foot repeatedly because apparently a bloodthirsty barbarian had better functioning brain than the whole collective of humanity. Draenei got fucked because they are draenei.

That's some creative rewriting of the lore. I can only stare in wonder and be bewildered as to where you came up with such...imagination.

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The only reasonable way to have peace is to decimate eachother, of course how could I not see.

How could you not see? Teldrassil burned brightly.

[VladlTutushkin]

I'm glad we're resorting to ad hominem AS WELL as advocating for genocide and warmongering as the only options to resolve conflict.

I'm glad we've more sensible people in charge otherwise I shudder to think where this adherence to the eye for an eye mentalty would lead us.

The only reasonable way to have peace is to decimate eachother, hold on to grudges and adhere to old traditions, of course how could I not see, the Night Elves return to their ancestral homeland and kick the orcs out which they'll of course accept, they'll leave for good and never covet the territory they just owned again NOT TO MENTION they won't ever want vengenace for being kicked out.

All in all the perpetual cycle of violence stops and everyone lives happily ever after.

I hope you're aware that that was sarcasm.

I'm not saying I expect anyone to abandon their ancestral homeland, but when you've had border skirmishes for 30 years leading to full blown war on more than one occasion perhaps it's best, when you CAN AND HAVE TO pick a new home to avoid settling in a place that'll just cause border skirmishes to continue.

But I mean what do I know, apparently stubbornly standing your ground until you tear eachother apart simply because of "muh homeland" is a far more reasonable approach.

Because they ALREADY TRIED IT AND IT FAILED ENTIRELY. When night elves handed horde all the rights to Azshara to both provide them with resources and remove the tension from the region it didnt helped them secure peace after all when horde invaded their land again.

Also in real life we have peace in the world without countries moving away from one another.

Did russians moved to Australia when they got repeatedly invaded by various european countries? No. And yet there is peace now.

If horde respects their own fucken signed treaty and leaves Ashenvale they will not be sacrificing anything or being humiliated since they agreed to leave it anyway after MoP forever in exchange for night elves leaving Azshara forever. Fair deal all in all.

And by YOUR OWN LOGIC why orcs and other horde races cant move to somewhere else? Rebuild Orgrimmar in another zone. Like Feralas for example or Un’Goro crater? Both zones have lots of wood and no real population. There is one fortress in Feralas but its not hard to move away from there since its not a “settlement” but just a military base.

[Dellis0991]

That's some creative rewriting of the lore. I can only stare in wonder and be bewildered as to where you came up with such...imagination.

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How could you not see? Teldrassil burned brightly.

Creative rewriting? I think not, the Alliance has individually and collectively shot themselves in the foot many times and the Horde...well they always been a train wreck so I don't expect much from them to try to right wrongs. Fact is the lost they took was because pride or greed (not counting the the AvH conflicts).

[Aresk]

Except by Anduin's own advice all he did with Genn in reaction to him violating his orders was giving him a stern talk. That's not a punishment by any stretch of the word. Especially once you put it in context of high treason and crimes against peace. Especially^2 if you put it in the additional context of Anduin supposedly being oh, so much in favor of peace and preserving it.

I'm not sure how rebuking someone is not a punishment. It is an action brought about due to disapproval of the target's actions. It is by its nature undesirable to go through. Ergo, it is a punishment. Should there have been a more severe punishment? Probably. Would a more severe punishment have changed anything? No. If Anduin had executed Genn, for instance, Sylvanas' plans wouldn't have changed, and he'd have lost the Gilnean support (at the least). But I'm curious, what punishment do you feel would be appropriate for Anduin to administer?

[Shadowferal]

Creative rewriting? I think not, the Alliance has individually and collectively shot themselves in the foot many times .

By showing mercy and tolerance for actions that justified swift retaliation.

[Aresk]

Genn, Jaina, and Vereesa are yet to be held accountable for their crimes

Didn't we just rescue Jaina from Thros where she was sentenced for her crimes? And I have no clue what crime you're talking about regarding Vereesa.

[Dellis0991]

By showing mercy and tolerance for actions that justified swift retaliation.

^Ok true enough.

[Shadowferal]

Yep, and hostilities ceased after that, noone ever wants vengeance after they've been beaten

No. That's your mentality; take a beating and just lie there. Let your home get destroyed and your people murdered...and you hoping for a chance to run away...for what? Rebuild...so they can take that from you with an obligatory beat down..rinse and repeat.
You getting your ass kicked repeatedly only says you aren't deserving of keeping anything.

[Nadiru]

What brings sustained peace though is not forgiveness. People in Europe did not exactly forgive the Germans for WW2. What forged peace was economic interdependence and an increasing quality of life that made the cost of war far too significant.

Europe was economically interdependent - the most until the formation of the EU - in 1914. What forged peace there was the United States forcing that issue.