Titans - are they as devious as the Dreadlords?

[username993720]

In the "Enemy Infiltration -Preface" book, we learn that the Dreadlords are infiltrating the different cosmic forces:

"In many ways, the titans will be the easiest to manipulate. Their singular goal is to impose structure upon everything they see.

Show them a force that opposes their drive for Order, and they will be consumed by their urge to eradicate it.

Their pantheon, so seemingly united in purpose, is vulnerable to fracturing.

The void lords all but welcome us with open arms. They are so preoccupied with their thousand truths that they ignore the lies we sow in their very midst.

I believe we can leverage their vast reach to position them as a foil against our other rivals.

We remain wary, though. Since they are observant of multiple outcomes, it is conceivable they could anticipate our coming.

Similar to the titans, the naaru and their keepers are singular in purpose. Their adherence to a linear path is an obvious shortcoming.

They savor nothing more than being proved right, so if they believe they have converted one of us to their precious Light, they will trust that agent implicitly.

The adherents to Life are the most insidious of opponents, perhaps because their nature is so antithetical to our own.

Still, we learned much from observing the link between their plane and Ardenweald, and we have high confidence that a vulnerability has been identified.

Our operative has already gained the trust of her target.

And as previously discussed, our position within the plane of Disorder is proceeding flawlessly. Consuming fel energy is not a pleasant process, but a necessary one.

The deception you have architected will bear fruit in the ages to come."

So, that means that the Dreadlords have a foothold in the Plane of Death (their origin), Disorder (demonic dreadlords), Light (Lothraxion) and Void (Dreadlords basking in the Void powers of the planet Sargeras destroyed).

Meanwhile, Titans are beings of Arcane and, therefore, have a foothold in that cosmic plane.
Yet, it is not the only force that they a foothold in.
Sargeras is a Fel-corrupted Titan. Although, he seems to be their adversary, so did Lothraxion seem to be against the Burning Legion and even orchestrated the death of some of his brothers. In the end, he deceived us all.
We've got Eonar, who has a foothold in the Life cosmic force as she (through Freya, whom she empowered) created the Emerald Dream and bestowed life powers upon Ysera and Alextrasza.
There's Argus, who has been referred to as a Death Titan by his datamined spell labels and "Drust-ish" spell effects.
The Seeker mount's description tells of how it was imbued with the Light by the Titans.
So, the only cosmic force they don't seem to have a foothold in is the Void.

This brings me to my next point. If the Arbiter was de-activated by the death of Argus (as the cinematic hints at, with the red-ish comet):


That means that Argus is, indeed, a Death Titan and that the Arbiter is, probably, his creation. They are, perhaps, linked together as if he empowered her to take on this role (similar to Eonar and Freya). Much like how Ra fell into depression once he learned about the Titans' demise. That would mean that the Eternal Ones are the equivalent of Azeroth's Titanic Watchers. And, before you lunge at me with "but, their power level was described as Titan-like!", hear me out. Some accounts claim that the Eternal ones arrived after the creation of the Shadowlands. Mirasmius, a sentient mushroom in Ardenweald, says the following:
"There was a time when hard work was valued in these parts. Of course, then she (Winter Queen) came along and got all fancy with her trees (Dream Trees) and groves. Nobody remembers old Marasmius."
Yet, he also says:
"I've been down here for ages. I remember the early days, it was just me and the Queen herself. We kept awful busy back then. She's a real hard worker too..."
So, it is unknown if she came later on, or alongside him.
It was, also, implied that there was a time "before the Maw was called the Maw." Moreover, The landmass within the Maw consists of pieces of land that have been ripped from a realm that was destroyed upon entering the Maw's atmosphere and whose pieces have become burned and desiccated. The Jailer pieced these together into a single landmass by throwing out chains in every direction within the Maw from Torghast and pulling them inwards.
These suggest that the Eternal Ones shaped the Shadowlands in their image and ordered it, accordingly. Much like how the Titans shape and order planets, using their Titanic creations. This is, perhaps, why the Shadowlands are ordered in the first place. Why souls are sent by the Arbiter to Bastion if they are drawn to service, to Maldraxxus if they were mighty in life, to Ardenweald if they were part of the natural cycle, to Revendreth if they sinned and to the Maw if they are irredeemable. The jailer wanting to tear apart this ordered system is like Sargeras' old lore - he saw order as a flawed thing and wanted to destroy it.

On the other hand, they could be the creation of the First Ones, who are said to have created the universe and its cosmic forces. The only question is, if Order is associated with the plane of the Titans, and not Death, why are the Shadowlands so ordered?

Archon: "The order of the Shadowlands depends on the execution of our eternal charge".

What do you think? are the Titans as devious as the Dreadlords, infiltrating the different cosmic forces? Do they have a significant foothold in the realm of Death?

[Sorrowseer]

I think the Titans story is pretty much over to be honest.

[Caerule]

A lot of this is speculation. Argus wasn't awoken until the end, and he was a tortured soul. We know how Sargeras fell.

At the start of things, the Titans were clearly the dominant force. There's no need for them to be deceivers.

The Titans are the "good guys" in most ways. As in, they will love and support you, as long as you are on board with their plans and vision.

If things get too dire, then things get troublesome. We've seen two examples of Titans acting against us, when things got too dire. Sargeras went mad, when he foresaw victory of the Void Lords, and went purge-happy to an extreme degree. But even the regular Titans put a Reorigination System in place, in case the forces of Chaos were close to victory. The Titans do not deal well, with the prospect of losing. Now, the Titans were dead at the time, so they couldn't arrive to set things right, while we could assume normally they'd have been checking up on Azeroth. But still.

Overall though, they've seemed a rather tolerant force. They boosted the Aspects as mortals turned champions. They were chill when we met them, taking our efforts seriously, even if we're just mortals. They lost servants like the Dwarves to the Curse of Flesh, but still considered them worthy. It's more a problem for you when they do not consider you worthy. Like the Troggs.

Anyway, I don't believe it was Argus that broke the Arbiter. I don't believe they have nefarious plans. They may be a creation of the First Ones. I do not believe they infiltrated the other Cosmic forces.

[username993720]

Anyway, I don't believe it was Argus that broke the Arbiter. I don't believe they have nefarious plans. They may be a creation of the First Ones. I do not believe they infiltrated the other Cosmic forces.

You have to admit, though, that they do have a lot of "branches", in other cosmic forces.
Since we found out that the cosmic forces are vying for control, then i'd say they have quite the advantage.

[Caerule]

You have to admit, though, that they do have a lot of "branches", in other cosmic forces.
Since we found out that the cosmic forces are vying for control, then i'd say they have quite the advantage.

They dabble, sure. One was clearly wielding life energies. A tortured one seemed to have access to death's energies. But, I actually think the Titans are the ones least aware of the struggle of the 6 great cosmic powers. Perhaps because their opposite, Fel and Disorder, was largely contained in the other side of the coin of this universe: the Twisting Nether. The Titans set about ordering the universe, well before they encountered the other cosmic forces of Demons and Old Gods. Bringing life, peace and balance in a way that seems overall friendly to forces such as Life, Light and likely even Death. They have never shown antagonism against these forces.

It's demons that ended up causing them to change their plans, and losing them one of their number to become aligned with another force. It's the Void that proved perhaps an even greater threat. And it's Death that may have been the greatest threat of all, breaking them as a cosmic force completelyv through the schemes of the Dreadlords.

In WoW, the Titans, while having villainous potential, tend to play more the role of hero and victim. After all, is their goal of making every world thrive, really one we would oppose? Most of the time, their version of order, is a balance we can live with. Unlike most of the other cosmic forces. But then, we're biased, because we rose from a world shaped in that vision.

Either way, I don't think I can agree with you that they hold an advantage. Their Death Titan was slain. Their Fel Titan is imprisoned as enemy. And the others lost their planet-sized forms. And are now stuck as jailers to Sargeras. Effectively, they are the cosmic force that has been reduced to nothing. If they had had full awareness from the start, they may have indeed brought the other cosmic forces to heel. But I don't see them coming back from this.

I think it may be more productive for you to look to the First Ones. The grand architects of the cosmos. The creators of the cosmic six. There is much we do not know. Are they the Progenitors of the 6 cosmic forces? Is there perhaps a First One of Fel, that still lurks within the Nether? The originator of Fel, whose position as Master of Demons Sargeras merely unwittingly usurped? We do not know, what lurks below. And I can't wait to find out!

[shoc]

In many ways, the titans will be the easiest to manipulate. Their singular goal is to impose structure upon everything they see.

Show them a force that opposes their drive for Order, and they will be consumed by their urge to eradicate it.

Their pantheon, so seemingly united in purpose, is vulnerable to fracturing.

This already happened, when the Dreadlords introduced Sargeras to the nature of the Void Lords. That was the beginning of his downward spiral. One little nudge and the Nathrezim took out the whole Titan Pantheon.

[huth]

In many ways, the titans will be the easiest to manipulate. Their singular goal is to impose structure upon everything they see.

Show them a force that opposes their drive for Order, and they will be consumed by their urge to eradicate it.

Their pantheon, so seemingly united in purpose, is vulnerable to fracturing.

This already happened, when the Dreadlords introduced Sargeras to the nature of the Void Lords. That was the beginning of his downward spiral. One little nudge and the Nathrezim took out the whole Titan Pantheon.

On the other hand, it also means that they lack deeper understanding of the very concept of deviousness. Sargeras never stopped to consider whether somebody might be deliberately misguiding him.

[username993720]

They dabble, sure. One was clearly wielding life energies. A tortured one seemed to have access to death's energies. But, I actually think the Titans are the ones least aware of the struggle of the 6 great cosmic powers. Perhaps because their opposite, Fel and Disorder, was largely contained in the other side of the coin of this universe: the Twisting Nether. The Titans set about ordering the universe, well before they encountered the other cosmic forces of Demons and Old Gods. Bringing life, peace and balance in a way that seems overall friendly to forces such as Life, Light and likely even Death. They have never shown antagonism against these forces.

It's demons that ended up causing them to change their plans, and losing them one of their number to become aligned with another force. It's the Void that proved perhaps an even greater threat. And it's Death that may have been the greatest threat of all, breaking them as a cosmic force completelyv through the schemes of the Dreadlords.

In WoW, the Titans, while having villainous potential, tend to play more the role of hero and victim. After all, is their goal of making every world thrive, really one we would oppose? Most of the time, their version of order, is a balance we can live with. Unlike most of the other cosmic forces. But then, we're biased, because we rose from a world shaped in that vision.

Either way, I don't think I can agree with you that they hold an advantage. Their Death Titan was slain. Their Fel Titan is imprisoned as enemy. And the others lost their planet-sized forms. And are now stuck as jailers to Sargeras. Effectively, they are the cosmic force that has been reduced to nothing. If they had had full awareness from the start, they may have indeed brought the other cosmic forces to heel. But I don't see them coming back from this.

I think it may be more productive for you to look to the First Ones. The grand architects of the cosmos. The creators of the cosmic six. There is much we do not know. Are they the Progenitors of the 6 cosmic forces? Is there perhaps a First One of Fel, that still lurks within the Nether? The originator of Fel, whose position as Master of Demons Sargeras merely unwittingly usurped? We do not know, what lurks below. And I can't wait to find out!

That's what they want you to think
Acting all innocent and benign yet, slowly but surely, sending out branches to other cosmic forces.
I don't think they are outside the quarrel of the cosmic forces. Every one of them, even those considered "good", like Light, Life and Arcane are, ultimately, vying for control.
I think there is potential villainy to the Titans. Being fanatics in their desire for order, much like the fanaticism of the Light. Azeroth, after all, has a reorigination module, and Algalon is set to use it if things get out of control on the planet.
The fact that Aggramar created Grond on Draenor, to counter the sporemounds, even though that planet did not contain Titan soul, means that he tried to counter the force of life on that planet from taking over.

[TheFirstOnes]

I think the Titans story is pretty much over to be honest.

No? Blizzard clearly said they want to do more with Sargeras and his storyline. They even hint at it by saying "If that red dot is gone...be careful".

- - - Updated - - -

But, in terms of what OP is saying, ok? Different Cosmic Forces have shared different influences over the Cosmos. Light and Shadow are invading and influencing realms such as the Shadowlands, the Winter Queen is connected to life in some way, and the Void Lords are trying to corrupt beings of Order to serve their cause.

So, no. The Titan's aren't "devious" all because they connect themselves to multiple cosmic powers. At MOST, they're probably as biased as the Light, in that they think their purpose is just, and yady yady yada.

- - - Updated - - -

On the other hand, it also means that they lack deeper understanding of the very concept of deviousness. Sargeras never stopped to consider whether somebody might be deliberately misguiding him.

Also, this. The Titans are kinda mind-fuckable.

[czarek]

I think the Titans story is pretty much over to be honest.

Maybe not over but fully explained. I bet titans are just mid gods in the universe. Old gods are much much over that. Cthun and Nztoh coming back? :P And bth titans are not devious. They goin to be tricked (or just fu(kedup) :P

[enigma77]

No I think the Titans really are mostly benevolent.

[A Chozo]

Argus is not confirmed to be a Death Titan. That's just datamining. Oribos and the Arbiter are implied to be created by the First Ones that Blizzard is shoving into the plot.

But yes, there's something wonky going on - it's as if the Shadowlands was reorganized from something. Maldraxxus was conquered by the current Necrolords, Marasmius mentions a time before the Winter Queen (and still acknowledges that she has been there for ages just like him), Denathrius was called "Lord of Dread" at some point, and then there's Oribos, the place that sorts souls but by default sends every single one to the Maw unless the Arbiter interferes. There's also the existence of other realms like whatever was obliterated to become the Maw, and even "secret" realms like the one Zovaal is pulling with his chains for the next patch. And the Jailer himself had another role.

It's a place that changed. I guess the First Ones shaped it from something else and placed the known Eternal Ones on command - which means the First Ones behave oddly similar to Titans - a "rehash" of a theme.

[Foolicious]

It's a place that changed. I guess the First Ones shaped it from something else and placed the known Eternal Ones on command - which means the First Ones behave oddly similar to Titans - a "rehash" of a theme.

Thats definetly the case. I wonder if the titans got their inspiration from the shadowlands to leave behind minions to do their work or if this isn't connected at all.
The Eternal ones feel oddly similar to Loken, Odyn and their kin.
I think it was Ion that teased that there is much more to the shadowlands than we know and that kyrians need to be trained in battle because there are dangers out there in the "in between", the place between the planes of the shadowlands. This is also where the new landmass was hidden.

To come back to the original question, i don't think the titans are devious by default. They do the job of their cosmic power. They order. Just like the light wants to unite everything in religious like unity. That doesn't make them evil, just blind.

[username993720]

No? Blizzard clearly said they want to do more with Sargeras and his storyline. They even hint at it by saying "If that red dot is gone...be careful".

So, no. The Titan's aren't "devious" all because they connect themselves to multiple cosmic powers. At MOST, they're probably as biased as the Light, in that they think their purpose is just, and yady yady yada.

And, they have been hinting at a Titan homeworld.

Yet, they, potentially, have as much advantage as the Dreadlords (4 cosmic forces) at their side.
How many does the Light or the Void have?

It's a place that changed. I guess the First Ones shaped it from something else and placed the known Eternal Ones on command - which means the First Ones behave oddly similar to Titans - a "rehash" of a theme.

I wanted to say that but, i was reserved.
As creators of the universe and organizers of the different cosmic forces, aren't they kind of Titans?
Like, they shaped and ordered the Shadowlands and, presumably, left their creation around to do the work, much like Titans.

To come back to the original question, i don't think the titans are devious by default. They do the job of their cosmic power. They order. Just like the light wants to unite everything in religious like unity. That doesn't make them evil, just blind.

Well, i didn't mean their ordering.
I meant their deviousness comes from them, unnoticeably, having "agents" in different cosmic forces, like the Dreadlords are trying to do.
And they are, quite, successful (4 out of the 6).

[------------------------]

alright, time to re-roll as a dreadlord, the winning theam

[TheFirstOnes]

alright, time to re-roll as a dreadlord, the winning theam

The Player Characters: Not for long...

[huth]

I wanted to say that but, i was reserved.
As creators of the universe and organizers of the different cosmic forces, aren't they kind of Titans?
Like, they shaped and ordered the Shadowlands and, presumably, left their creation around to do the work, much like Titans.

There are some similarities, but there's also a bunch of differences. Titans aren't really following any real plan, they just impose their idea of Order on anything they come across.

[Sorrowseer]

No? Blizzard clearly said they want to do more with Sargeras and his storyline. They even hint at it by saying "If that red dot is gone...be careful".

While news to me, I still think the Titans themselves are done, they will comtinue to beat the dead horse that is sargey boi.

[TheFirstOnes]

While news to me, I still think the Titans themselves are done, they will comtinue to beat the dead horse that is sargey boi.

I assume we'll get more stuff on the Titans, but maybe nothing major. I assume we're going to fight Sargeras at the Seat of the Pantheon (And maybe the Titan "homeworld/realm" if it gets to that point), and then the fight will end with us beating him, he gets back his blade to "help" us, and Eonar heals the wound in Silithus.

[username993720]

There are some similarities, but there's also a bunch of differences. Titans aren't really following any real plan, they just impose their idea of Order on anything they come across.

Maybe, like Odyn, the Shadowlands and the Val'kyr, the Titans were inspired by the First ones to impose order on everything?

While news to me, I still think the Titans themselves are done, they will comtinue to beat the dead horse that is sargey boi.

Probably not.
From a Steve Danuser interview with Taliesin and Evitel:
"Shadowlands delves deeper into the cosmology chart. We've explored some sections in past expansions--like Argus (Disorder) and Emerald Dream (Life). We've mostly seen Titans through their Azeroth expressions, but we haven't gotten to a proper Titan homeworld."
Which, means that we might get an entire expansion revolving around them or, at least, a patch.

Not only that but, Sargeras is imprisoned, not dead. Which, means, just like Illidan, that he will be free at some point.