Why not badge gear?

[Dhrizzle]

That wasnt how badge gear worked. The stuff you bought with it was it's own gear it didnt drop anywhere else. And it was filler pieces like shields and trinkets and rings not main armor or weapons. Gear from bosses has never been purchasable.

My warrior left WotLK with six pieces T9 and 2 pieces T10 without ever setting foot in anything harder than a heroic dungeon.

[Skavee]

The available gearing paths were waaaay more limited back in tbc and wrath. For the higher ilvl gear you had 2 options raiding or arenas.

Outside of that you had 4 options: reputation gear (just like we have now), unrated pvp (battlegrounds), dungeons and crafted gear. Out of those 4 only the battleground rewards kept scaling up with new seasons. New crafting gear required the recipe/materials that dropped from the raid.

If you only did unrated battlegrounds (rated did not exist) your item options were limited to the arena gear options from the PREVIOUS season. The current pieces required arena points and rating. Only a handful of off-pieces from the current season were available without a rating.

Badge gear wasn't available for each slot either. It's been a long time, but I'm fairly certain badges also only dropped from dungeons and the raid. So again you had to do group content to get badge gear.

EDIT:
On the group content topic, you also had the vault of archavon in warth. You weekly chance of getting lucky with a raid/pvp piece from the current season. As it is customary linking the achievement was required.

[Relapses]

Personally speaking, I raid with a combination of IRL friends and Guildies I've been raiding with almost since the beginning... and yes, we raided proper progression once upon a time.

We're 15+ years older now, with Kids and more demanding Jobs, we simply don't want to even attempt to recruit a "Mythic Roster" because we're just not the same gamers we were back then. We will miss raid nights due to IRL and we do rely on offspecs most specs to cover Healing and sometimes Tanking for this reason. Every now and again new players join us, we gear them up, the say we should do "Mythic", we say no, so they leave for another guild.

Honestly, Flex has kept a lot of players like myself subbed. It's not so much the Mythic difficulty that keeps players from progressing (although that's part of it), it's the change from "flex" to a firm 20 man team that catches many of us out.

The problem is that Blizzard sees M+ as an avenue to gear up for raid...but not really vice versa. M+ is seen as supplemental. And until Blizzard shrugs this idea they're unlikely to add upgrade systems to people who exclusively raid. The upgrade systems we had in the past were added at times when all there was to do was raiding. This is the first time we've had an upgrade system and an infinitely grindable source of content in M+. To me, it seems as if VP is being added almost exclusively to offset the enticement which was previously a TF'd item in M+.

[BrintoSFJ]

How about this, instead of dropping gears directly, each boss would drop some crafting item. Let's say that after hoarding those items for a week or two, players could take them to a special craftsman npc, who would then craft an item for the player depending on which crafting items the players have. At the same time, those same crafting items can be used to upgrade the stats on gear or randomize the stats, for example, if a player needs crit on gear but instead got some other stat, the player could use those crafting item to reroll stats. It would reduce the rng and make running content multiple times more alluring to players.

[Doffen]

In other words, "re-release Legion."

As much as I loved Legion:

No ty! ALMOST(just almost) rather want competitive badge gear(aka emblem/justice/Valor) again.

[LDancer]

And that's the problem. They don't want anything close to BiS to be bought with points and I agree. When VP was first introduced and used, we didnt have M+. Now we have multiple ways to get gear:

Intro level gear
Heroics
M0
LFR
Covenant
Honor from random BGs
Vault

Depending on where you start and what you're after, you can get to 195 or better from that. 195 is plenty for anything up though ~ M5-8, normal CN and way more than you need for WQs.

The problem has been that you stall at 195-200 unless you want to raid heroic CN, do rated PVP or do M10+, with the exception of the Great Vault which is only a single piece per week. The new valor system lets people progress through M+ and, even if the drops initially aren't upgrades, the VP you get can eventually make them upgrades over time.

Before, my 200 geared balance druid had no real reason to do M2-10s aside from doing some to get vault rewards. Now, I can do them and get VP so that M+ drops can eventually be upgraded more. It gives me a reason to do stuff that's not either just busy work (gathering anima, etc) or killing time. We can debate the precise VP needed for upgrades and other implementation details, but as a concept, I like it.

I thought the real problem started when they put balancing content specific stats like the pvp ones from old into the too hard basket... and people would rock up to raid in total pvp gear and be next to useless.

I wouldn’t mind the current purchase gearing system if pvp gear had a pvp stat that made the gear good for pvp and then gave me the choice to reject that player as I can see how they’ve chosen to gear themselves.

There needs to be a content specific stat that boosts a player’s power level in the chosen content they gear from. This stops those getting an over abundance of gear that’s universal for all content. Example - it allows the M+ runners for example get stronger in that content without it affecting the balance if they go to pvp or raid as that stat becomes disabled

[Jujudrood]

So while I get the arguments for an against Badge gear, we kinda sorta already have that.
It's called the Covenant gear, which boosts to like 190something, just a hair below Normal raid.
Instead of having badges and new vendors and items, just add more items to the Covenant NPC, so you can get a covenant themed trinket, a ring, maybe even throw in a weapon or two, and boom; problem solved.

"But anima is needed for sanctum upgrades!"
Ok, so go farm up more, doing WQs, dungeon runs, whatever, just gogogo get that precious anima.
That's your carrot on a stick; get enough to buy a base 155 or whatever, then upgrade it to 7 of 7, spending thousands of anima (instead of thousands of valor) and you have your slow and steady progression path until next patch when each of those items can be upgraded to 10 of 10 or whatever, spending that precious anima to get that precious ilvl.

Seems like a really easy fix for the casual non-Raider or non-M+ runner (who is getting a weird badge system themselves), tbh.

[Echocho]

So while I get the arguments for an against Badge gear, we kinda sorta already have that.
It's called the Covenant gear, which boosts to like 190something, just a hair below Normal raid.

And it ends in no time at all. Casuals don't want gear, the want gear progression. Covenant gear could be iLvl 300 and it would still be unsatisfactory because it's not long term progression tied to a gameplay loop.

[Argorwal]

My warrior left WotLK with six pieces T9 and 2 pieces T10 without ever setting foot in anything harder than a heroic dungeon.

The T9 you could buy with badges was 232 when ICC was dropping 277.

The T10 was the 251 version.

So...grats for buying terrible gear off a vendor? I mean 232 being 45 item levels under the top? That’s like being proud of 181 gear right now.

[Dhrizzle]

The T9 you could buy with badges was 232 when ICC was dropping 277.

The T10 was the 251 version.

So...grats for buying terrible gear off a vendor? I mean 232 being 45 item levels under the top? That’s like being proud of 181 gear right now.

I replied to this post - "The stuff you bought with it was it's own gear it didnt drop anywhere else. And it was filler pieces like shields and trinkets and rings not main armor or weapons."

[Relapses]

As much as I loved Legion:

No ty! ALMOST(just almost) rather want competitive badge gear(aka emblem/justice/Valor) again.

I mean, like I've said, Covenant campaign gear kind of fills the niche that badge gear in prior expansions used to fill. I won't lie and say that it wouldn't be nice to have a few more deterministic options but I personally think a lot of the backlash we're seeing in the community over loot scarcity is just whiplash from going from being showered in epics in Legion/BfA to having gear be slightly more relevant/rare again in this expansion.

[cuafpr]

I had the same reaction as the OP. like WOOT a reason to come back.... oh wait nvm, i hate M+

[Jujudrood]

And it ends in no time at all. Casuals don't want gear, the want gear progression. Covenant gear could be iLvl 300 and it would still be unsatisfactory because it's not long term progression tied to a gameplay loop.

Which is what the remainder of my post said.
Adding more gear to the Covenant vendor and allowing Anima be the currency.
With the costs of upgrading being in the thousands per piece, and with Anima also being tied to the Sanctum upgrades, cosmetics, and other such things, that would be more than enough for a very little lift development-wise.
Having a new currency just isn't the answer; it's a bandaid over a bigger problem, but if we have a vendor who accepts Anima for gear already, expand on it is more my argument.

[Doffen]

I mean, like I've said, Covenant campaign gear kind of fills the niche that badge gear in prior expansions used to fill. I won't lie and say that it wouldn't be nice to have a few more deterministic options but I personally think a lot of the backlash we're seeing in the community over loot scarcity is just whiplash from going from being showered in epics in Legion/BfA to having gear be slightly more relevant/rare again in this expansion.

Yep, 100% my thoughts as well. And Covenant campaign gear gives you, lets say normal raid gear equal. Not much different that older iterations of "grinding a currency" we've had in the past.

I rather them just increase drop rates, as they did today than giving gear that doesn't really equal the content everyone is doing. I think, and even with me playing along nicely with TF without big issues, that the kind of content you do, what difficulty it is, should affect your options of gearing up. Giving mythic gear to a normal raider from various sources is bad design. Effort should be rewarded, sure, but like me and a couple of guildies talked about last night, there is a player that complain about not getting gear, but that player barely plays, and he is the one that shout the highest of not getting upgrades. My point is, effort do reward you right now, and the change to m+ is a good change for that. If you do a lot of m+ in 9.0.5 and get all 10s in time, you get rewarded for both effort and your skill level. If you do same effort but can do all 15s in time, it rewards you for being that skilled. Though I think they could up the requirement to 20.

I think blizzard have done some good, simple changes. The m+ I must say I did not see coming. That they actually put some sort of skill cap on it was nice. Sure, you can get boosted, but that wouldn't be a change from the last decade of the game.

[froschhure]

In other words, "re-release Legion."

if they would release legion and bfa as one gigantic reroll addon - what you think would happen

[Echo of Soul]

Yep, 100% my thoughts as well. And Covenant campaign gear gives you, lets say normal raid gear equal. Not much different that older iterations of "grinding a currency" we've had in the past.

The problem is that you're missing out on the most important part which is the grinding. The problem isn't that there isn't any gear it's that there's no gear to work towards. It's a problem of your gear progression coming to a full stop way too early in a patch's lifecycle.

[Yriel]

Read they were reintroducing valor points and got excited, thought I might resub. Then I read what these “Valor” points actually are and....

Is it so hard for them to bring back badge gear? Something to work towards weekly like back in BC or Wrath? I understand “this game is not that game” but it works wonderfully in Final Fantasy. I unsubbed because I couldn’t deal with the toxicity of random M+ play this expac, too much going on lately but without that and with just Raid Finder there’s not much else to feel like you’re actually progressing your gear. A weekly capped badge system with a vendor would be a HUGE carrot on a stick. Doesn’t need to be the best gear, maybe normal Raid level as it was historically.

Seriously, have they ever mentioned why they completely ignore this concept that they themselves initially used?

*Unable to post on the official forums since I don’t have a sub

Nah, the unwashed masses don't deserve anything, welfare is just for the rich now and they can't get enough of it. Enjoy.

[Doffen]

The problem is that you're missing out on the most important part which is the grinding. The problem isn't that there isn't any gear it's that there's no gear to work towards. It's a problem of your gear progression coming to a full stop way too early in a patch's lifecycle.

Agree on the part that the high end players are struggling a bit, and pointed out several times as well. It's those higher up that are "hurting" atm, seeing mythic raid gear and GV gear is the only real upgrades they can have. The valor point change is going to help a bit in that regard. I do think that best gear should come from mythic raid though, and I am afraid of whats going to be next. If we get that grind again where you do trivial content and get rewarded with the best gear that's a flawed design.

I do however only get upgrades from two last bosses in CN now, but we are also 3 months in. Personally I would be happy with what we had before these incoming(and implemented changes). It was the solution to Titanforging and it's removal. I don't want to be showered with gear. I have been pretty pleased with the new system, but even as a casual player myself, I can see the high end of the player base could use a buff. I do however think the new cap at 15 should have been increased to at least 18, and you got 220 gear from that if you cleared it all in time. Heck even make it 20, and make it so you can upgrade it to 226.

Saying all this, I have seen forums now with players complaining about not getting gear. While in game I see most people being geared up fully already. I think 3 months is the least amount you need to be close to done. Anything before that is way too fast to be done gearing imo.

I still get upgrades from the GV, and I will get upgrades from the GV for a while ahead, as with the majority of the player base. Its those whos already 220+ that struggles having more goals to work towards. They should get some love too.