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  1. #361
    Toto partying hard last night. Seems the whole team celebrated the constructors and were in good spirits despite the drivers championship drama. I personally think this book is closed and Max is champion.

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  2. #362
    I have mixed feelings now. From one POV Max has won and he deserved it. From other POV it will be considered, that his victory isn't real, because no matter, what happened during whole season - it had been in the past and it was about winning/losing that last race.

  3. #363
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    Toto partying hard last night. Seems the whole team celebrated the constructors and were in good spirits despite the drivers championship drama. I personally think this book is closed and Max is champion.
    Mercedes have already declared their intention to appeal.

    After some of the drama earlier in the year regarding their redesign, to win the constructor's championship is still a feat that deserves recognition.

    To not celebrate that would be unfair to those who worked for it. That has no bearing on whether or not they plan to drag this out, which at this rate is more about Masi than anything else.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Problem was - IT WAS ALSO AGAINST RULES and Red Bull reminded Masi about it.
    "If the clerk of the course considers track conditions are unsuitable for overtaking the message "OVERTAKING WILL NOT BE PERMITTED" will be sent to all teams via the official messaging system."

    The car and debris were still on the track while Horner was on the radio to race control. Tell me where it's against the rules?


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  4. #364
    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Goblin View Post
    Mercedes have already declared their intention to appeal.

    After some of the drama earlier in the year regarding their redesign, to win the constructor's championship is still a feat that deserves recognition.

    To not celebrate that would be unfair to those who worked for it. That has no bearing on whether or not they plan to drag this out, which at this rate is more about Masi than anything else.
    Well there is a lot of buzz going around saying that Max claims Wolf has now congratulated Max and that Lewis would prefer not to appeal the championship. I've also heard (rumour?) that Toto phoned Horner while drunk and they cleared the air in good spirits. Lewis doesn't seem to want to win the championship in a court room, of course it still may go to court but they seemed to have softened their stance on the situation and I think with clarity and hindsight they might just drop it.

    It's also about how it reflects on them as competitors and I think they are aware of that. So I think personally it's a closed book, I still think that even if Mercedes go ahead and take this to a court because I don't know how they come to any conclusion where Red Bull can have the win taken away from them, since they are an entirely innocent party.
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  5. #365
    I still think it should go to court, it's not Red Bull's fault but the rules do need to be fully clarified and in football terms not have a ref go "Well you're 2-1 and attacking in the 95th minute of 5 minutes injury time. But I'm going to give a penalty to the other team out of the blue, make sure the keeper isn't there and issue a next goal wins situation." which kind of what happened in this situation. Yeah, the other team is innocent but at the same time, you can't have the team that was clearly winning just lay down and accept an injustice too.

  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    I still think it should go to court, it's not Red Bull's fault but the rules do need to be fully clarified and in football terms not have a ref go "Well you're 2-1 and attacking in the 95th minute of 5 minutes injury time. But I'm going to give a penalty to the other team out of the blue, make sure the keeper isn't there and issue a next goal wins situation." which kind of what happened in this situation. Yeah, the other team is innocent but at the same time, you can't have the team that was clearly winning just lay down and accept an injustice too.
    That's not the same thing at all. Hamilton was left at the last lap with hards since lap 14/15 purely because of Merc refusing to pit, they risked being in that situation. If Hamilton pitted at least during the VSC, I believe he could have won the race.

    The injustice you are talking about happened in other races and in the very first lap of this race as well, with Hamilton not getting a penalty for overtaking outside the track.

  7. #367
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    Well there is a lot of buzz going around saying that Max claims Wolf has now congratulated Max and that Lewis would prefer not to appeal the championship. I've also heard (rumour?) that Toto phoned Horner while drunk and they cleared the air in good spirits. Lewis doesn't seem to want to win the championship in a court room, of course it still may go to court but they seemed to have softened their stance on the situation and I think with clarity and hindsight they might just drop it.

    It's also about how it reflects on them as competitors and I think they are aware of that. So I think personally it's a closed book, I still think that even if Mercedes go ahead and take this to a court because I don't know how they come to any conclusion where Red Bull can have the win taken away from them, since they are an entirely innocent party.
    That says more about the fact that Mercedes bears no ill will to Red Bull over the incident (because frankly it's not Horner or Verstappen's fault) and their issue lies entirely with the FIA.

    Personally I hope it goes further on principle, because so many things need to be clarified and resolved from this. Masi cannot suddenly have overbearing control to change and dictate rules on a whim, even other teams commented on how it wasn't right and things were a mess. I don't see how we can go into next season with this unresolved.

    Also if Red Bull get the win taken from them, it's not a judgement of RB. Same way a bank error in your favour isn't you being accused of theft.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MakeMeLaugh View Post
    The injustice you are talking about happened in other races and in the very first lap of this race as well, with Hamilton not getting a penalty for overtaking outside the track.
    Verstappen was judged to have run Hamilton off the track, and Hamilton was instructed to slow down to negate any time advantage gained from it. If Hamilton hadn't run off the road he was going to be broadsided.

    Also ruling on Mercedes pit strategy is completely in hindsight, sure he could have pit under the VSC, but he didn't need to. Verstappen still wasn't catching him at any point after his second tyre change. Were he leading still at the end, those would have been 30 lap run hards against fresh softs for the final shootout lap.

    That shootout lap still has me bothered, because it negates an entire race. Verstappen had chances to lead throughout the race and failed to do so, then the final lap was crafted in a way that benefit his strategy which had failed all race to get him in first.

    Now tomorrow it could be Hamilton who gets such a judgement call in his favour, or Sainz, or anyone but Mazepin because he'll never fucking be in that position in his life, and it'll still be wrong. What's the point of a race if you're going to suddenly make it a one lap shootout (and also fix which drivers can partake in said one lap shootout, Sainz was robbed of a chance to win there)


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  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Goblin View Post
    Also if Red Bull get the win taken from them, it's not a judgement of RB. Same way a bank error in your favour isn't you being accused of theft.
    Not really a comparable situation here since Mercedes did not earn the win, they didn't pass the finish line first and you can't just decide that they would have. So how do you give the championship to the other competitor when neither competitor did anything wrong but only one of them actually finished first. You can't run the race again, you can't decide after the fact what would have happened.

    In no scenario do you arrive at the situation where you can fairly award a win to Mercedes after the fact, all you can do is attempt to find fault with the race directing/stewarding, which so far has also gone nowhere because of the interpretation of the rules. And I will even concede the "any/all" argument they used is a big stretch because Masi used this same defense in the past where "any" did mean "all" in his use of the term.

    But then there is the fact that further articles in the regulations override previous articles, which is another reason the FIA state Masi was within the regulations as they were written. But all of this is against the FIA and with Red Bull being fully innocent and with Mercedes having no claim to the win of the race it's just not going anywhere. Max is champion, you can quote me on that in 3 months or whatever.

    If Hamilton hadn't run off the road he was going to be broadsided.
    That's not true, if there was a gravel trap there Hamilton would have backed out and remained on track dropping in behind Max or perhaps losing another position too. Hamilton went off because he refused to back out, which was the correct choice given the run off area, at worst he was risking losing 1 place to Max and at best he'd get away with it (as he did). If he backed out (as he would have with no tarmac run off) he'd have risked losing more, which is why he didn't.

    I 100% feel Lewis should have given that place back since Max made a legit move, there was no contact and he did it entirely on track, there are countless past examples to show that.
    Last edited by Bigbazz; 2021-12-13 at 06:51 PM.
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  9. #369
    Quote Originally Posted by MakeMeLaugh View Post
    That's not the same thing at all. Hamilton was left at the last lap with hards since lap 14/15 purely because of Merc refusing to pit, they risked being in that situation. If Hamilton pitted at least during the VSC, I believe he could have won the race.

    The injustice you are talking about happened in other races and in the very first lap of this race as well, with Hamilton not getting a penalty for overtaking outside the track.
    In either safety car sequence (Virtual or full), pit stopping would have screwed over Lewis as in either one Red Bull would have stayed out on. Lap 1 Max tried to run Lewis off the road with his "I'm coming through, yield or we crash." divebomb that is frowned on so much that in F1 games people get thrown out of leagues for. Hell in the full safety car situation at the end the procedure is to have a full lap after releasing the car.

    Masi basically made the rules up as he went along and you can't plan for "What if the ref basically wants us to lose and will change the rules to make it so."

  10. #370
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    Not really a comparable situation here since Mercedes did not earn the win, they didn't pass the finish line first and you can't just decide that they would have. So how do you give the championship to the other competitor when neither competitor did anything wrong but only one of them actually finished first. You can't run the race again, you can't decide after the fact what would have happened.

    In no scenario do you arrive at the situation where you can fairly award a win to Mercedes after the fact, all you can do is attempt to find fault with the race directing/stewarding, which so far has also gone nowhere because of the interpretation of the rules. And I will even concede the "any/all" argument they used is a big stretch because Masi used this same defense in the past where "any" did mean "all" in his use of the term.

    But then there is the fact that further articles in the regulations override previous articles, which is another reason the FIA state Masi was within the regulations as they were written. But all of this is against the FIA and with Red Bull being fully innocent and with Mercedes having no claim to the win of the race it's just not going anywhere. Max is champion, you can quote me on that in 3 months or whatever.
    Reminder that Max was given another free win in Spa.

  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Goblin View Post
    That says more about the fact that Mercedes bears no ill will to Red Bull over the incident (because frankly it's not Horner or Verstappen's fault) and their issue lies entirely with the FIA.

    Personally I hope it goes further on principle, because so many things need to be clarified and resolved from this. Masi cannot suddenly have overbearing control to change and dictate rules on a whim, even other teams commented on how it wasn't right and things were a mess. I don't see how we can go into next season with this unresolved.

    Also if Red Bull get the win taken from them, it's not a judgement of RB. Same way a bank error in your favour isn't you being accused of theft.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Verstappen was judged to have run Hamilton off the track, and Hamilton was instructed to slow down to negate any time advantage gained from it. If Hamilton hadn't run off the road he was going to be broadsided.

    Also ruling on Mercedes pit strategy is completely in hindsight, sure he could have pit under the VSC, but he didn't need to. Verstappen still wasn't catching him at any point after his second tyre change. Were he leading still at the end, those would have been 30 lap run hards against fresh softs for the final shootout lap.

    That shootout lap still has me bothered, because it negates an entire race. Verstappen had chances to lead throughout the race and failed to do so, then the final lap was crafted in a way that benefit his strategy which had failed all race to get him in first.

    Now tomorrow it could be Hamilton who gets such a judgement call in his favour, or Sainz, or anyone but Mazepin because he'll never fucking be in that position in his life, and it'll still be wrong. What's the point of a race if you're going to suddenly make it a one lap shootout (and also fix which drivers can partake in said one lap shootout, Sainz was robbed of a chance to win there)
    Dude this is not a video game that just slowing down after cutting a corner is fine. Every other instance of that happening you have to give the place back or get a 5s penalty. It's completely normal for the car ahead and on the inside to squeeze the other car, being run wide doesn't automatically let you overtake outside the track and keep the position.

    They didn't need to pit when Verstappen did his first pit either, since they were running on mediums anyway, but they did. Just copy what the other team does and you will be fine with such a gap. It was still Merc decision to end the game with the same tyres they put in lap 14/15, again, they risked being in that position at the end.

  12. #372
    Banned Hansworst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Reminder that Max was given another free win in Spa.
    Reminder that Hamilton got a free repair and win at Silverstone.

  13. #373
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    In either safety car sequence (Virtual or full), pit stopping would have screwed over Lewis as in either one Red Bull would have stayed out on. Lap 1 Max tried to run Lewis off the road with his "I'm coming through, yield or we crash." divebomb that is frowned on so much that in F1 games people get thrown out of leagues for. Hell in the full safety car situation at the end the procedure is to have a full lap after releasing the car.

    Masi basically made the rules up as he went along and you can't plan for "What if the ref basically wants us to lose and will change the rules to make it so."
    Dude this is not a video game. The divebomb was fine and it worked, if Hamilton decided to not back off that was on him.

  14. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Reminder that Max was given another free win in Spa.
    Half a win, and that whole event was a farce. It's also entirely irrelevant to the topic?
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  15. #375
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    Not really a comparable situation here since Mercedes did not earn the win, they didn't pass the finish line first and you can't just decide that they would have.
    Race should have finished under the safety car, which is boring but it's also how it should have ended. Mercedes earned the win by being ahead at that point, and for the majority of the race.


    That's not true, if there was a gravel trap there Hamilton would have backed out and remained on track dropping in behind Max or perhaps losing another position too. Hamilton went off because he refused to back out, which was the correct choice given the run off area, at worst he was risking losing 1 place to Max and at best he'd get away with it (as he did). If he backed out (as he would have with no tarmac run off) he'd have risked losing more, which is why he didn't.

    I 100% feel Lewis should have given that place back since Max made a legit move, there was no contact and he did it entirely on track, there are countless past examples to show that.
    If Hamilton goes into that turn as was his right, he gets straight up broadsided by Verstappen, that would be a collision of Verstappen's making and would only benefit one man. Max not being rewarded for trying to decide the title there and then by mutually assured destruction (much like he did at Monza) is the right call. Nobody should want to see a driver go out and try to have his own Senna/Prost moment to win a title.


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  16. #376
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hansworst View Post
    Reminder that Hamilton got a free repair and win at Silverstone.
    Because finishing a race is the same as driving a handful of precession laps behind a safety car.

  17. #377
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    Well there is a lot of buzz going around saying that Max claims Wolf has now congratulated Max and that Lewis would prefer not to appeal the championship. I've also heard (rumour?) that Toto phoned Horner while drunk and they cleared the air in good spirits. Lewis doesn't seem to want to win the championship in a court room, of course it still may go to court but they seemed to have softened their stance on the situation and I think with clarity and hindsight they might just drop it.

    It's also about how it reflects on them as competitors and I think they are aware of that. So I think personally it's a closed book, I still think that even if Mercedes go ahead and take this to a court because I don't know how they come to any conclusion where Red Bull can have the win taken away from them, since they are an entirely innocent party.
    It's pretty simple. If merc go legal, it'll be to remove Masi.

    He'll hand his resignation in in a few months, watch.
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  18. #378
    Quote Originally Posted by MakeMeLaugh View Post
    Dude this is not a video game. The divebomb was fine and it worked, if Hamilton decided to not back off that was on him.
    No it's not fine. It's actually something pretty much every other driver has been pissed off about Max about and why he's pretty much joked about as being Crashstappen by certain groups of fans. That kind of move was phased out for a reason.

  19. #379
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakeMeLaugh View Post
    They didn't need to pit when Verstappen did his first pit either, since they were running on mediums anyway, but they did. Just copy what the other team does and you will be fine with such a gap. It was still Merc decision to end the game with the same tyres they put in lap 14/15, again, they risked being in that position at the end.
    You're still judging an entire race strategy in hindsight. Until that reset shootout lap at the end (which no one can ever plan for, because until Sunday it had never happened) Mercedes had a winning strategy.


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  20. #380
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Because finishing a race is the same as driving a handful of precession laps behind a safety car.
    Look where he's from, you won't reason with him. Dutch people are scary nationalist.

    Infracted - No stereotyping on nationality
    Last edited by Northern Goblin; 2021-12-13 at 07:11 PM.
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