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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    I'm NOT Max's fan, but I just don't like domination of one team - it's boring, because it makes results of races predictable. Is it just me, who think, that Max was "overjudged" in Monza? Yeah, at the end it was result of his team not performing well and without it they wouldn't have any problems. But just explain one thing to me. May be I don't understand rules or something. At the moment, when Lewis started to turn left, Max was just one wheel behind him. So they were obviously side by side. And when two cars are side by side in second turn, outer one should usually use wider trajectory. So, I mostly agree with Max, who said, that he was pushed towards curb and jumped on it as result. Just look at other episodes in the same turn. Has any other driver ever turned left via inner trajectory, when there was other car at his side?

    And overall this situation looks even more strange to me. I.e. judges think, that it was "tactical fall", while they didn't think, that same thing happened in Silverstone. It really starts to make me feel, like there is some negative bias about Max. Like if he wouldn't deserve winning current championship and champion title would already be reserved for Lewis.
    In simpler terms what the rules state is that if the cars are completely side by side they must give eachother 1 car witdth of space. If they are not side by side there is a little bit more of a leeway to the car in front in taking the racing line, tough some space should be given.

    Max wasn't completely side by side with Lewis but Lewis did move while breaking into the first corner pushing max offline. In my eyes it was a racing incident.
    @Jessicka Max might still have some reputation for being reckless but he's far from his younger days. Most of the critics he had was from dangerous defending by moving really late to defend.


    By the way they are both great drivers but i'm not a fan of either.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Maell View Post
    In simpler terms what the rules state is that if the cars are completely side by side they must give eachother 1 car witdth of space. If they are not side by side there is a little bit more of a leeway to the car in front in taking the racing line, tough some space should be given.

    Max wasn't completely side by side with Lewis but Lewis did move while breaking into the first corner pushing max offline. In my eyes it was a racing incident.
    This rule is strange, because I thought about is as about "not pushing other car off track" and "not causing collision".

    And other thing - too much is said by many people (like Daemon Hill) about this incident, as about being extremely dangerous, while nothing was said about Silverstone one, where same thing happened with much worse consequences. This is exact reason, why I think, that people are too prejudiced about Max. Lewis also was very "aggressive" in fighting for his championship position in Silverstone and it was also "tactical fall" there, but all of a sudden it's bad to do the same for Max.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    This rule is strange, because I thought about is as about "not pushing other car off track" and "not causing collision".

    And other thing - too much is said by many people (like Daemon Hill) about this incident, as about being extremely dangerous, while nothing was said about Silverstone one, where same thing happened with much worse consequences. This is exact reason, why I think, that people are too prejudiced about Max. Lewis also was very "aggressive" in fighting for his championship position in Silverstone, but all of a sudden it's bad to do the same for Max.
    The rule is pretty much about who has to yield. If when you're overtaking you only get 1/3 or 1/2 the way there you are the one who has to yield, the other driver should not have to let you through just because you got a bit of your car there.

    About the danger of it is because the car was airborne and there was a wheel touching Lewis helmet. Luckily that wheel was not spinning otherwise it could have been really bad for Lewis.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Maell View Post
    The rule is pretty much about who has to yield. If when you're overtaking you only get 1/3 or 1/2 the way there you are the one who has to yield, the other driver should not have to let you through just because you got a bit of your car there.

    About the danger of it is because the car was airborne and there was a wheel touching Lewis helmet. Luckily that wheel was not spinning otherwise it could have been really bad for Lewis.
    I thought about this rule as about "overtake allowing rule". Because, you know, it would be impossible to overtake, if other car would always try to "close the gate" or pick middle trajectory. So, this rule is made exactly to make overtakes possible.

  5. #105
    I'd rather have drivers having collisions and crashing out than all that clinical "racing" in a line, saving fuel, saving tyres, saving engines and getting on a radio to bitch about "he pushed me out" "he didn't give me any room". F1 has been so pussified in the hybrid era that it does not even deserve to be considered the pinnacle of motorsport. That goes to MotoGP where you can see actual racing

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Confucius View Post
    I'd rather have drivers having collisions and crashing out than all that clinical "racing" in a line, saving fuel, saving tyres, saving engines and getting on a radio to bitch about "he pushed me out" "he didn't give me any room". F1 has been so pussified in the hybrid era that it does not even deserve to be considered the pinnacle of motorsport. That goes to MotoGP where you can see actual racing
    Yeah, this is reason, why I actually like F2 more than F1.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    I thought about this rule as about "overtake allowing rule". Because, you know, it would be impossible to overtake, if other car would always try to "close the gate" or pick middle trajectory. So, this rule is made exactly to make overtakes possible.
    What you are allowed to do is move only ONCE if someone is right behind you in a overtake position and while you are breaking you cannot move to block.

    Quote Originally Posted by Confucius View Post
    I'd rather have drivers having collisions and crashing out than all that clinical "racing" in a line, saving fuel, saving tyres, saving engines and getting on a radio to bitch about "he pushed me out" "he didn't give me any room". F1 has been so pussified in the hybrid era that it does not even deserve to be considered the pinnacle of motorsport. That goes to MotoGP where you can see actual racing
    So you would rather see people getting injured and/or die?

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    This rule is strange, because I thought about is as about "not pushing other car off track" and "not causing collision".

    And other thing - too much is said by many people (like Daemon Hill) about this incident, as about being extremely dangerous, while nothing was said about Silverstone one, where same thing happened with much worse consequences. This is exact reason, why I think, that people are too prejudiced about Max. Lewis also was very "aggressive" in fighting for his championship position in Silverstone and it was also "tactical fall" there, but all of a sudden it's bad to do the same for Max.
    I hate the bashing Max recieves from former racers, ie Daemon Hill, that old cunt who's name escapes me.. and Hamilton himself.

    Are there memories that bad? Silverstone comes to mind.. did we hear anything back then? Nope. And Hamilton didnt care alot about how Max was doing either. Seems they love to give, but not recieve.

    And the punishment max recieved.. feels abit over the top.. specially compared to Silverstone...

    But I'm with many F1 drivers like Alonso, it was a racing incident. (I just noticed most of those who say it was a racing incident are not from the UK) 10 second and 2 points would have been enough in my eyes.

  9. #109
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    This rule is strange, because I thought about is as about "not pushing other car off track" and "not causing collision".

    And other thing - too much is said by many people (like Daemon Hill) about this incident, as about being extremely dangerous, while nothing was said about Silverstone one, where same thing happened with much worse consequences. This is exact reason, why I think, that people are too prejudiced about Max. Lewis also was very "aggressive" in fighting for his championship position in Silverstone and it was also "tactical fall" there, but all of a sudden it's bad to do the same for Max.
    Plenty was said about Silverstone, and Lewis got a 10s penalty. That just got lost because there's no one else can compete with him if Max is off the track (and vice versa), and that's the bigger shame; Perez got a 5s penalty this race and dropped from 3rd to 5th, so 'in theory' a 10s penalty should be pretty brutal - it just isn't if you give it to Lewis or Max if the other isn't on the track, and you can't legislate for them being special cases. Ultimately I don't think Max's grid penalty will make much difference next race either.

    I think maybe people notice when Lewis yields, but not so much when Max does, and we're all on English speaking media, which is therefore probably UK centric (since F1 is more popular in the UK than US) and will certainly have some bias from that perspective.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    I think maybe people notice when Lewis yields, but not so much when Max does, and we're all on English speaking media, which is therefore probably UK centric (since F1 is more popular in the UK than US) and will certainly have some bias from that perspective.
    I think for me this is the biggest thing I notice, it feels Lewis has yielded a lot to Max's aggression. Look at the first Italian GP this year where at the first chicane Lewis fully baked out of it due to Max aggressively going for the apex. Now when Lewis does the same Max wants to act like he is the one thats being attacked? Na. Max has been allowed to be overly aggressive far too long and Lewis is starting to take the gloves off. You gonna know the track. You dont drive like at an ass when you know there is a risk of this kinda accident. Honestly a 3 place penalty is fucking leniant.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Hansworst View Post
    It's 1-1 now. Red Bull still have to change PU thanks to that Silverstone shunt. They'll take it now at Sochi. This was actually a good outcome for Max. In stead of Lewis winning 29 points on a Mercedes track he got 0 and Max got 2
    Yup! /10char

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoura View Post
    Yup! /10char
    Yeah, I also think, that it's 1-1, because back in Silverstone Lewis also was way too aggressive in that "you pass him now or you lose" situation. And Max's life was in greater danger back then. Don't remember exact amount of G-force, but seats are expected to sustain 16G during plane crash. And if I remember number correctly, max suffered 51G during that crash. It's 3x more. So, Max survived in 3 plane crashes in a row. And Lewis complains about wheel scratching his helmet a little bit?

  13. #113
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Yeah, I also think, that it's 1-1, because back in Silverstone Lewis also was way too aggressive in that "you pass him now or you lose" situation. And Max's life was in greater danger back then. Don't remember exact amount of G-force, but seats are expected to sustain 16G during plane crash. And if I remember number correctly, max suffered 51G during that crash. It's 3x more. So, Max survived in 3 plane crashes in a row. And Lewis complains about wheel scratching his helmet a little bit?
    "A little bit", if the diff hadn't gone, he'd have been decapitated.

  14. #114
    Warchief Hansworst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    "A little bit", if the diff hadn't gone, he'd have been decapitated.
    Decapitated is quite the exaggeration. The wheel touched his head for a split second and even if it started turning it would have pushed his head a bit back. Sure he would have a sore neck. Lewis only remembered the wheel touching his head about an hour after the race. That was after Toto made remarks about the Halo saving his life.
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  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    This rule is strange, because I thought about is as about "not pushing other car off track" and "not causing collision".

    And other thing - too much is said by many people (like Daemon Hill) about this incident, as about being extremely dangerous, while nothing was said about Silverstone one, where same thing happened with much worse consequences. This is exact reason, why I think, that people are too prejudiced about Max. Lewis also was very "aggressive" in fighting for his championship position in Silverstone and it was also "tactical fall" there, but all of a sudden it's bad to do the same for Max.
    The outcome of an infringement should have no bearing on the consequences, save for giving a palce back where unfairly earned such as Perez.

    Silverstone was not the same by any measure. Max went off the track and rejoined causing a collision, that's on him. Giovinazzi has exactly the same with Leclerc and actually had less space and still managed to avoid a crash.

    I'd also point out, lap 1, turn 4, Max did the same thing to Lewis and he yielded and cut the corner losing a place, the correct course of action.

    Max said "thats what you get if you dont leave enough space" on the radio after, he saw the closing gap and put his car there and forced hamilton to make a choice - hamilton has yielded to him almost always to avoid a collision but he's stopped doing that and said he would, hence these incidents arising. Max isn't smart, the clever thing to do would be cut the corner, say Hamilton pushed him, make a scene and get him penalised whilst still racing and overtaking him later.

    This entire incident favours Max, even the penalty. They can now replace the engine as they were planning and get off scott free whilst mitigating their loss at a circuit that shouldve put Hamilton back on top.

    I say this as a Mclaren, LN/DR fan.
    Last edited by willtron; 2021-09-15 at 06:01 PM.
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  16. #116
    Warchief Hansworst's Avatar
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    Max deserved the penalty and you can compare it to the Silverstone clash. A 10 second time penalty is almost the same as a 3 place grid penalty. Lewis was lucky back then he could continue and have free repair under red flag. Plus there was the bonus of a broken Honda engine.

    There was a lot of nonsense on the internet the last couple of days. Max never left the track at turn 1 or 2. He always kept to wheels on the black stuff. He landed on Lewis because his rear left touched (the ridiculously placed) sausage kerb.

    Bygones be bygones but I'm afraid this won't be the last clash of the season.
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  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Fuiking View Post
    I hate the bashing Max recieves from former racers, ie Daemon Hill, that old cunt who's name escapes me.. and Hamilton himself.
    Because hes reckless.

    Are there memories that bad? Silverstone comes to mind.. did we hear anything back then? Nope. And Hamilton didnt care alot about how Max was doing either. Seems they love to give, but not recieve.
    Yes he did, he radio'd straight after.

    And the punishment max recieved.. feels abit over the top.. specially compared to Silverstone...
    Lewis got a 10 second penalty for a 60/40 racing incident. Max got a penalty for causing a collision after leaving the track and rejoining in an unsafe manner, it's in the rules.

    But I'm with many F1 drivers like Alonso, it was a racing incident. (I just noticed most of those who say it was a racing incident are not from the UK) 10 second and 2 points would have been enough in my eyes.
    Other drivers, and other people are welcome to their opinion, but the rules state as such as Max got penalised for it. The drivers won't care as much as the fans do. Onward to the boringness of Sochi.
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  18. #118
    Warchief Hansworst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by willtron View Post
    The outcome of an infringement should have no bearing on the consequences, save for giving a palce back where unfairly earned such as Perez.

    Silverstone was not the same by any meassure. Max went off the track and rejoined causing a collision, that's on him. Giovinazzi has exactly the same with Leclerc and actually had less space and still managed to avoid a crash.

    I'd also point out, lap 1, turn 4, Max did the same thing to Lewis and he yielded and cut the corner losing a place, the correct course of action.

    Max said "thats what you get if you dont leave enough space" on the radio after, he saw the closing gap and put his car there and forced hamilton to make a choice - hamilton has yielded to him almost always to avoid a collision but he's stopped doing that and said he would, hence these incidents arising. Max isn't smart, the clever thing to do would be cut the corner, say Hamilton pushed him, make a scene and get him penalised whilst still racing and overtaking him later.

    This entire incident favours Max, even the penalty. They can now replace the engine as they were planning and get off scott free whilst mitigating their loss at a circuit that shouldve put Hamilton back on top.

    I say this as a Mclaren, LN/DR fan.
    Max never left the track before Copse, he went a bit wide to give Hamilton some space but never went of track.

    And the lap 1 clash isn't comparable. Other kind of turn, no weirdly placed sausage kerb and way further distance from the apex.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by willtron View Post
    Because hes reckless.



    Yes he did, he radio'd straight after.



    Lewis got a 10 second penalty for a 60/40 racing incident. Max got a penalty for causing a collision after leaving the track and rejoining in an unsafe manner, it's in the rules.



    Other drivers, and other people are welcome to their opinion, but the rules state as such as Max got penalised for it. The drivers won't care as much as the fans do. Onward to the boringness of Sochi.
    Lewis got a penalty for causing a collision where he was predominantly to blame.
    Max got a penalty for causing a collision where he was predominantly to blame.
    The stewards haven't announced any percentages regarding both incidents
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  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by willtron View Post
    He didn't do the same thing at all. Max went off track and rejoined in an unsafe manner. He should've gone thorugh the corner, as Lewis did earlier in the race.
    Max never went off track.



    That's as clear as can be and has never been up for debate, his right tyre is on the track surface the other side of the white line. If he had not been on the track the accident wouldn't have happened so maybe that was a better choice, but he found himself in that position because Lewis squeezed him hard and the sausage kerb caused him to get airborne when he drove over it with his left front (while still within the track limits).

    This should be a discussion about why the hell do they keep using these sausage kerbs when they have time after time caused big accidents from small driver errors. I don't think Max should have been penalised at all, but it doesn't matter since he's taking an engine penalty anyway which neutralises it.
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  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    Max never went off track.
    Frame or two after shows differently.


    That's as clear as can be and has never been up for debate, his right tyre is on the track surface the other side of the white line. If he had not been on the track the accident wouldn't have happened so maybe that was a better choice, but he found himself in that position because Lewis squeezed him hard and the sausage kerb caused him to get airborne when he drove over it with his left front (while still within the track limits).
    Giovinazzi managed it and din't crash into Leclerc. Its on Max.

    This should be a discussion about why the hell do they keep using these sausage kerbs when they have time after time caused big accidents from small driver errors. I don't think Max should have been penalised at all, but it doesn't matter since he's taking an engine penalty anyway which neutralises it.
    Agreed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hansworst View Post
    Max never left the track before Copse, he went a bit wide to give Hamilton some space but never went of track.
    I'm talking Monza. I saw SS as a racing incident, Max turned in on Lewis and Lewis got within half a car length. Minimal contact which huge consequences. Depends on your perspective. You can see it as Lewis going deep and bumping him off, or Max closing the door on a car going faster. The fact Lewis managed to pull that move off against Leclerc later in the race on a more aggressive line makes me lean to Max closing the door.

    And the lap 1 clash isn't comparable. Other kind of turn, no weirdly placed sausage kerb and way further distance from the apex.
    Yes there are, you see Lewis bounce.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Lewis got a penalty for causing a collision where he was predominantly to blame.
    Max got a penalty for causing a collision where he was predominantly to blame.
    The stewards haven't announced any percentages regarding both incidents
    Because the stewards are always consistent

    the 60/40 is generally what was bounded around between everyone, which I would agree with. Lewis more at fault, but 10 seconds for it seems a little ridiculous for a racing incident.
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