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  1. #141
    Warchief Hansworst's Avatar
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    Impressive performance by both Hamilton and Mercedes. Passed by cars as if it was nothing, even without DRS. Wonder if they are going to change engine every race now? 5-grid penalty is nothing for them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
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  2. #142
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    Aside from being prohibitively expensive, I feel like the FIA might have an opinion on running into 'taking the piss' territory. I expect going much past 5 without a spectacular blow up would ramp up those penalties.

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Aside from being prohibitively expensive, I feel like the FIA might have an opinion on running into 'taking the piss' territory. I expect going much past 5 without a spectacular blow up would ramp up those penalties.
    It isn't against the rules to keep changing ICE's after the third one but it will give them an 5 grid place penalty every time. Surely it's not what the FIA intended with the rule but it's not something they can stop this season. IIRC the power unit doesn't count towards the cost cap. I guess Mercedes wants to spend everything to get their 8th consecutive WCC and WDC.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
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  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Hansworst View Post
    It isn't against the rules to keep changing ICE's after the third one but it will give them an 5 grid place penalty every time. Surely it's not what the FIA intended with the rule but it's not something they can stop this season. IIRC the power unit doesn't count towards the cost cap. I guess Mercedes wants to spend everything to get their 8th consecutive WCC and WDC.
    From the F1 Website

    Have there been any changes to what is and isn’t included in the cap?
    The initial cap covered expenditure that relates to car performance. It excludes all marketing costs, race driver fees/salaries and the costs of the team’s three highest paid personnel. This remains the case.

    Further changes have been made since, such as excluding salary costs for staff on maternity and paternity leave as well as sick leave, plus the costs of medical benefits provided to team employees. This is to ensure teams are not motivated to cut costs in these areas to stay within the cap.

    By allowing teams to carry over certain major car components, such as the chassis, from 2020 to 2021, the savings made in these areas will be reflected in 2021 within their spend against the cost cap.

  5. #145
    Warchief Hansworst's Avatar
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    Those rules aren't related to PU. With an average cost of 10 million per ICE, with 11 engines used so far these season they would only have 65 million left on the cap. The cost cap includes the entire car except for the PU. So basically they could change the ICE every race with the only cost of 5 places.

    Finally, purchasing engines from an engine manufacturer won't count in the $175 million cap, although there is a cap to how much an engine can cost a customer - 15 million.
    Last edited by Hansworst; 2021-11-17 at 02:02 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Hansworst View Post
    Those rules aren't related to PU. With an average cost of 10 million per ICE, with 11 engines used so far these season they would only have 65 million left on the cap. The cost cap includes the entire car except for the PU. So basically they could change the ICE every race with the only cost of 5 places.

    Finally, purchasing engines from an engine manufacturer won't count in the $175 million cap, although there is a cap to how much an engine can cost a customer - 15 million.
    My bad. Did a quick search about it and I was misremembering it. There were talks about imposing a cost cap for the PU but it was not implemented yet. I thought it went into effect this year.

  7. #147
    Looking at the on board pics of Verstappen forcing Hamilton wide, do we think there'll be a penalty? It looks a bit naughty (as was the weaving) that that he hardly turns until Hamilton is off and then full locks. Arguably just late braking, and racing incident, but Verstappen has form for this kind of driving

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenrys View Post
    Looking at the on board pics of Verstappen forcing Hamilton wide, do we think there'll be a penalty? It looks a bit naughty (as was the weaving) that that he hardly turns until Hamilton is off and then full locks. Arguably just late braking, and racing incident, but Verstappen has form for this kind of driving
    I'd could understand if they gave a 5 or 10 second time penalty during the race for forcing another driver off the track. He braked far too late to regain position (and so did Lewis). I guess they won't change it anymore because Verstappen would probably lose a position now because he lifted at the end and that's why Bottas came closer. If they gave him the penalty during the race he wouldn't have lifted and would've kept the gap to more then the penalty time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Hansworst View Post
    I'd could understand if they gave a 5 or 10 second time penalty during the race for forcing another driver off the track. He braked far too late to regain position (and so did Lewis). I guess they won't change it anymore because Verstappen would probably lose a position now because he lifted at the end and that's why Bottas came closer. If they gave him the penalty during the race he wouldn't have lifted and would've kept the gap to more then the penalty time.
    They could also impose a 3 place grid penalty (their equivalent for a "next race" 5 second time penalty) or a 5 place grid penalty (in place of a 10 second time addition).

  10. #150
    The Insane Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hansworst View Post
    Those rules aren't related to PU. With an average cost of 10 million per ICE, with 11 engines used so far these season they would only have 65 million left on the cap. The cost cap includes the entire car except for the PU. So basically they could change the ICE every race with the only cost of 5 places.

    Finally, purchasing engines from an engine manufacturer won't count in the $175 million cap, although there is a cap to how much an engine can cost a customer - 15 million.
    Still not exactly trivial money, and certainly the kind of thing that the FIA would then look at that could very likely bite them in the ass further down the line, especially if their reliability issues continue. Even if not technically an infringement under current rules, there’s plenty of good reason not to play dick moves on the ‘doesn’t say you can’t’ line; very quickly you find out you can’t anymore, when maybe you really need to. Spirit of the rules and all that.

  11. #151
    Current season makes me more and more sad. Two things, I wan to say:
    1) Mercedes use some unfair tactic again. They found some way to "burn" their engine in order to squeeze extra power from it. And advantage is so big, that it allows them to win rases from last row. Overall, there was danger, that they could use this tactic on all last races. Problem is - it kills whole purpose of penalties for engine changes in order to reduce budgets. There is threat, that Red Bull is in critical situation now. They play fair, i.e. use proper number of engines for season, but their resource may not be enough to beat 2-3 fresh Mercedes engines in last races.
    2) Double standards again. When Lewis attacked Max too aggressively on Silverstone and caused huge 16 G-force crash - it was ok. When they were actually side by side in Monza and Lewis actually tried to push Max inside and caused crash again - it was ok (I provided F2 videos, where guys didn't just ignore another car inside 2nd turn). When Max widened too much on Interlagos without any crash - OMG, OMG, OMG SO BIG TRAGEDY FOR MERCEDES.

    Overall I'm not fan of Max - I'm fan of interesting races. And races have been way to predictable during several recent seasons. It's first time, when we have real chance of having something else, than just another Mercedes domination, and even in this case Mercedes find unfair ways to win anyway.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Current season makes me more and more sad. Two things, I wan to say:
    1) Mercedes use some unfair tactic again. They found some way to "burn" their engine in order to squeeze extra power from it. And advantage is so big, that it allows them to win rases from last row. Overall, there was danger, that they could use this tactic on all last races. Problem is - it kills whole purpose of penalties for engine changes in order to reduce budgets. There is threat, that Red Bull is in critical situation now. They play fair, i.e. use proper number of engines for season, but their resource may not be enough to beat 2-3 fresh Mercedes engines in last races.
    2) Double standards again. When Lewis attacked Max too aggressively on Silverstone and caused huge 16 G-force crash - it was ok. When they were actually side by side in Monza and Lewis actually tried to push Max inside and caused crash again - it was ok (I provided F2 videos, where guys didn't just ignore another car inside 2nd turn). When Max widened too much on Interlagos without any crash - OMG, OMG, OMG SO BIG TRAGEDY FOR MERCEDES.

    Overall I'm not fan of Max - I'm fan of interesting races. And races have been way to predictable during several recent seasons. It's first time, when we have real chance of having something else, than just another Mercedes domination, and even in this case Mercedes find unfair ways to win anyway.
    If Mercedes is doing something that is against the rules then they should get punished. Finding loopholes and using the gray-area in the rules is pretty much what F1 is all about, pushing everything as close to the line as possible.

    Silverstone wasn't OK, Lewis got a penalty. Insane amount of arguments against and for this result.
    Monza wasn't OK, Verstappen got a penalty. Insane amount of arguments against and for this result.
    Interlagos had an insane amount of arguments for and against the result of no penalty.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by notJoyful View Post
    If Mercedes is doing something that is against the rules then they should get punished. Finding loopholes and using the gray-area in the rules is pretty much what F1 is all about, pushing everything as close to the line as possible.

    Silverstone wasn't OK, Lewis got a penalty. Insane amount of arguments against and for this result.
    Monza wasn't OK, Verstappen got a penalty. Insane amount of arguments against and for this result.
    Interlagos had an insane amount of arguments for and against the result of no penalty.
    May be I don't understand something, but these cases are very similar to me. One of pilots tried to overtake, was almost side by side and refused to lift his foot, while other one was closing the gate, pushing other one off track and also refused to give up, that caused crash or almost crash. Please see this two videos and note, that in both cases pilots were one wheel behind opponent at overtaking moment. And in first case Max was considered to be wrong, while in second case all of a sudden Lewis should have been right. I.e. if in first case Max should have had to lift his foot and let Lewis go, then Lewis should have do the same in second case. No? This is, what bothers me. When this guys say something like "he was absolutely wrong" during interview, while doing exactly the same on one of previous races.
    Spoiler: 

    Spoiler: 

  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by notJoyful View Post
    If Mercedes is doing something that is against the rules then they should get punished. Finding loopholes and using the gray-area in the rules is pretty much what F1 is all about, pushing everything as close to the line as possible.

    Silverstone wasn't OK, Lewis got a penalty. Insane amount of arguments against and for this result.
    Monza wasn't OK, Verstappen got a penalty. Insane amount of arguments against and for this result.
    Interlagos had an insane amount of arguments for and against the result of no penalty.
    I think given the prior penalties, the only reason I can see that this wasn't a penalty is because the consequence was that they ran off onto tarmac and were able to continue racing. That seems to be the crux of the inconsistency argument around the track limits and racing lines - like it's okay when there's tarmac and space off the track? So where does the track extend to?

    The rules are supposed to be that consequences shouldn't factor into decision making, but it seems clear here that they did.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Oh, Max with a grid penalty for ignoring yellow flags.

    Also, loving Lewis’s helmet <3

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    May be I don't understand something, but these cases are very similar to me. One of pilots tried to overtake, was almost side by side and refused to lift his foot, while other one was closing the gate, pushing other one off track and also refused to give up, that caused crash or almost crash. Please see this two videos and note, that in both cases pilots were one wheel behind opponent at overtaking moment. And in first case Max was considered to be wrong, while in second case all of a sudden Lewis should have been right. I.e. if in first case Max should have had to lift his foot and let Lewis go, then Lewis should have do the same in second case. No? This is, what bothers me. When this guys say something like "he was absolutely wrong" during interview, while doing exactly the same on one of previous races.
    Spoiler: 

    Spoiler: 
    At a high level--similar circumstance (overtake attempts and conceding/or not)--but the two situations are quite different: At Monza--Lewis was ahead the entire way going into the corner, and maintained a reasonable line throughout it (Lewis never was off track or even close). Max refused to concede into a very tight turn, went off track, and forced his way back on and, well, there it is. That said--both could have done things to avoid this, but the lean is toward Max (think a 60/40 or 70/30 split of blame).

    In Brazil, Lewis went ahead of Max going into the corner; Max braked late (and moves ahead) and his steering inputs seem to indicate he turned late as well (can argue this was due to braking late and him avoiding a crash). His actions caused himself to go significantly off the racing line and race track (and thus Lewis as well). He clearly carried too much speed into the corner. You could argue he knew what he was doing and that he wouldn't make it (but that's conjecture). Max has a right to defend, but it was a little much. Do I think it was penalty-worthy, going off history? Probably. Do I mind him not getting one? Not really--I'm OK with them racing a little hard, but it does require two smart drivers (luckily they both are). What I would like to see is consistency though.

    But I think Jessicka is spot on--consequences were the key here (they shouldn't be, but they were). Lewis overtook, no one crashed so no harm, no foul and we move on.
    Last edited by Espo; 2021-11-21 at 03:11 PM.

  16. #156
    Congrats on Alonso's podium. Very surprising pace from both Alpines.
    Need Roll - 1 for [Bright Pink Imbued Mageweave Banana-Hammock] by Ayirasi

  17. #157
    Warchief Hansworst's Avatar
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    How the Saudi track ever got a F1 status is beyond me. It's really dangerous with the high speed and blind turns.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Hansworst View Post
    How the Saudi track ever got a F1 status is beyond me. It's really dangerous with the high speed and blind turns.
    We were just saying this today too. Hamilton almost got destroyed by Gasly during FP3 due to that blind corner. All it's going to take is someone spinning out in a blind area and another car coming in to t-bone them during the grand prix. Money over safety I guess

  19. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hansworst View Post
    How the Saudi track ever got a F1 status is beyond me. It's really dangerous with the high speed and blind turns.
    Yep, just watched an F2 sprint, finished under safety car because they just couldn't remove a car; 6 DNFs. Not a great track, honestly, it's scary watching the on-board cameras.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Well this track is terrible. Two injured F2 drivers and a barrier system that’s basically guaranteed to get hit that they have to stop the race to fix.

  20. #160
    Well that was something. Finale should be interesting.
    Need Roll - 1 for [Bright Pink Imbued Mageweave Banana-Hammock] by Ayirasi

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