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  1. #221
    I am Murloc! Asrialol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiveDkp View Post
    Then do us all a favour and post your armoury.

    Like the Tradu's post is quite correct - addons purely don't get you to the Top DPS spot. They help but they aren't 100% responsible for it.

    He actually provided you with some decent reasons why such as boss spawning adds/sludgefist hitting pillar on why certain addons may be off. Not to mention RNG can also play a part.
    You honestly think he'll actually post his armory? He ignored your post entirely. Not surprising.
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  2. #222
    The Lightbringer msdos's Avatar
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    Well yeah, what gets you top DPS spot is going into discord and asking "what best damage FOTM do have?" then you proceed to roll FOTM and you're now topping meters.

    Playing what you actually want to play puts you on bottom of logs in this game, doesn't that sound like fun to you?

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Asrialol View Post
    You honestly think he'll actually post his armory? He ignored your post entirely. Not surprising.
    I was expecting him to post the armory of an actually good player with strong logs. That's the classic shitter move.

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by msdos View Post
    Well yeah, what gets you top DPS spot is going into discord and asking "what best damage FOTM do have?" then you proceed to roll FOTM and you're now topping meters.

    Playing what you actually want to play puts you on bottom of logs in this game, doesn't that sound like fun to you?
    So roll that FOTM class if you wanna top meters, what's the issue? Perfect balancing is utopia, FOTM classes will always exist even with the tuning is perfectly done every time.
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  5. #225
    I am Murloc! Asrialol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    I was expecting him to post the armory of an actually good player with strong logs. That's the classic shitter move.
    He's a below 900 rio retpala who hasn't raided in quite a while. And according to his entertaining post history, he's been unsubbed for a few months by now.
    Hi

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by kenn9530 View Post
    These addons allow the attention to be focused on the actual content instead of trying to remember timings and such so its not a good idea to remove such addons, they dont limit design encounter they actually allow them to be made harder since raid teams can manage each bosses abilities much easier rather than having to remember timings for every single mechanic on every single boss.

    If you cant play at least reasonably well and raid lead at the same time then that player is not really that great to begin with.
    This is for sure the case.

    As a tank, I know my rotation and I can keep track of MOST of my cooldowns without looking at my bars. But active mitigation and other damage reducing cooldowns are on short timers/cooldowns and some of them are variable. Sometimes Fiery brand takes 30 seconds to cool down, sometimes 25. A simple weak aura brings my Fiery Brand, Demon Spikes, Fel Devastation, and Metamorphasis cooldowns up in visibility. It also overlays how long the buff is active so I can proactively plan which one I'm using next, allowing me to maximize uptime on defensives with fewer gaps.

    I can play 90% of content without this weakaura, because the content is easy enough that a few mistakes are forgivable. But when I'm at risk of dying on every pull, I need SOMETHING that can let me bring this to front and center more easily.

    A normal/lfr tank won't need these and for most Heroic fights a tank won't need these. For lower keys, you don't need these. It's purely for the more difficult content.

  7. #227
    The Lightbringer msdos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderball View Post
    FOTM classes will always exist even with the tuning is perfectly done every time.
    That happens because they make bad design decisions, like giving Rogues Mass Cloak. That has nothing to do with perfect tuning whatsoever. It's BAD DESIGN. Read again: BAD DESIGN. You got that right?

    FOTM exists because they have BAD DESIGN. That's the issue. Bad design, bad game.

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by msdos View Post
    That happens because they make bad design decisions, like giving Rogues Mass Cloak. That has nothing to do with perfect tuning whatsoever. It's BAD DESIGN. Read again: BAD DESIGN. You got that right?

    FOTM exists because they have BAD DESIGN. That's the issue. Bad design, bad game.
    Every game with a choice has fotm.

    Shroud also existed before mythic+ was a thing, and shroud still exists yet rogues are the primary meta dps compared to marks/fire/moonkin.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by msdos View Post
    That happens because they make bad design decisions, like giving Rogues Mass Cloak. That has nothing to do with perfect tuning whatsoever. It's BAD DESIGN. Read again: BAD DESIGN. You got that right?

    FOTM exists because they have BAD DESIGN. That's the issue. Bad design, bad game.
    Much capital letters, but I have no clue what you're saying. Rogues are very far from being the best class in M+ or raids right now.
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  10. #230
    The Lightbringer msdos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Argorwal View Post
    Every game with a choice has fotm.

    Shroud also existed before mythic+ was a thing, and shroud still exists yet rogues are the primary meta dps compared to marks/fire/moonkin.
    Gonna need source on that "every game with a choice has fotm" statement, because a lot of single player RPGs with choices don't have FOTM, you can build whatever you want, same with Path of Exile.

    Your other statement about fire/moonkin is just due to bad design, aka, ranged classes have too many instant abilities and dots when raid encounters already favor them.

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    Or it proves the reason Limit was able to beat the best resourced guild of all time was that they looked at their strengths and weaknesses and developed a winning strategy? "Coaches" have always being around but creating the 21st man role is inspired. For those 7 guilds that could actually win the race, it is great. It has nothing to do with weak auras. That has been around for expansions. Some form of DBM has been around since vanilla. The tools are not the problem.
    Max specifically said it could not be done without WA's or something in their place. So you're proven wrong by the very guy you're defending blindly.

    The fact we have 21 man world first races because the game can be scripted and played by someone not in the raid, is the problem with current raiding.

  12. #232
    The Lightbringer msdos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderball View Post
    Much capital letters, but I have no clue what you're saying. Rogues are very far from being the best class in M+ or raids right now.
    The game has bad design. You go on ignore now for being obnoxious and pretending to be illiterate and evading the point. Don't have time for people like you.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by msdos View Post
    The game has bad design. You go on ignore now for being obnoxious and pretending to be illiterate and evading the point. Don't have time for people like you.
    Yeah it absolutely does. But shroud is not one of them.
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  14. #234
    Stealthed Defender unbound's Avatar
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    Pfft.

    Blizz created WoW to have addons and have fully supported the development of add-ons since before launch. All kinds of addons were available.

    Just because the addons are fancier than what we had back in 2004 doesn't mean we didn't have them.

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by msdos View Post
    Gonna need source on that "every game with a choice has fotm" statement, because a lot of single player RPGs with choices don't have FOTM, you can build whatever you want, same with Path of Exile.

    Your other statement about fire/moonkin is just due to bad design, aka, ranged classes have too many instant abilities and dots when raid encounters already favor them.
    Every game with options has a “best” or most “optimal” for the content. In single player games it doesn’t matter because nobody is there to comment or care. I can play FF7 and never use KotR because I don’t want to, but that doesn’t stop it from being the objectively best attack for everyone. But it’s single player so who cares?

    Multiplayer is different.

    Moonkin, fire, and marksman all have good synergy with how most parts of mythic+ work, and that is very high burst aoe damage that can be planned around cooldowns. Moonkin a get a bonus with great utility as well.

    Anytime a classes current strength synergizes with how a specific contents damage patters work it’s going to be good.

    Like condemn arms on Sire, which is a fight tailor made for them and how their damage pattern aligns perfectly for that fight with a high HP and low HP damage race aligning with how condemn works.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Stormbreed View Post
    Max specifically said it could not be done without WA's or something in their place. So you're proven wrong by the very guy you're defending blindly.

    The fact we have 21 man world first races because the game can be scripted and played by someone not in the raid, is the problem with current raiding.
    The game could have always been played with a “coach” that isn’t a new thing.

    The coach isn’t to help beat the content. It’s to beat the content before anyone else.

    There is a VAST difference. It’s the race against others that pushes performance.

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormbreed View Post
    Max specifically said it could not be done without WA's or something in their place. So you're proven wrong by the very guy you're defending blindly.

    The fact we have 21 man world first races because the game can be scripted and played by someone not in the raid, is the problem with current raiding.
    So you're saying that if addons were disabled and everyone had to play the stock UI only, that it would no longer be advantageous to play with a 21st man?

    It sounds like you have zero understanding of mythic raiding. You jump to a very strange position regarding addons (WA's are essentially just on-the-flay addons) because Max said what everyone knows who raids mythic: that to be at the bleeding edge of mythic progression raiding you need every advantage, including highly customized WA's. Because of course you do. To do anything at the very highest levels you need every optimization.

    There is a particular irony to your flawed thinking. If addons were not allowed, it would not be less important to have a 21st man, it would be more important. If I can't do a WA to do a countdown of X seconds between one event and the next it would be much more useful to have someone calling it out. Your thinking is completely backwards.

    Be honest, have you ever actually done any mythic raiding?

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by tomten View Post
    I have a WA that automatically marks all important mobs in a dungeon, WA for every debuff, every mechanic, special for cooldowns and its stupid....
    then delete them and start doing it manually and use blizzards debuff frame?

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormbreed View Post
    The fact we have 21 man world first races because the game can be scripted and played by someone not in the raid, is the problem with current raiding.
    The problem you seem to have is with raid design, not with WAs or 21st man RL... and to that extent I agree. Raid design is *FAR* too complex these days, to the point it necessitates a dedicated RL and a dedicated WA creator. That isn't a problem with the meta or the addon, it's a problem with game design being too taxing.

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by Nite92 View Post
    The Archimonde thing made Blizz nerf WAs already.
    I know, but I want more nerfs.

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Yorimar View Post
    then delete them and start doing it manually and use blizzards debuff frame?
    You cant, would be to much of a disadvantage. Long as they are allowed, you're pretty much obligated to use them or you will gimp yourself.

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