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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    They don't take into consideration DBM or WA when coming up with encounters.
    They absolutely do work on the assumption that most folks are using DBM or similar.

    As far as 21st man raid leading, this is just the natural evolution of competitive play, and you can bet it's been done for a very long time, just sort of 'under the covers'.

  2. #162
    So you think raids are too hard?

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Corroc View Post
    But are they?

    I know the answer and its no, there is no addon involved there
    Do you not see the numbers that are appearing above their heads when wrought chaos starts? That's the position being assigned to them by the addon.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    It is the other way around. Because blizzard is trying so hard to counter top world guilds, all the rest suffers. Tools will exist regardless. But if the need (demand) to have such elaborate addons/wa would go down because of SIMPLER encounter designs, the supply will also go down.

    Nobody forces blizzard, thats ridiculous.
    They can easily block API calls for specific things and disallow addons.

    See the one they stopped during the Archimonde Encounter that literally played characters for people.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Aurrora View Post
    Do you not see the numbers that are appearing above their heads when wrought chaos starts? That's the position being assigned to them by the addon.
    That number is just based on which debuff you had. Makes it easier to split the group. Other guilds were doing this https://youtu.be/Vx6ipbVOWvY?t=219

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Corroc View Post
    That number is just based on which debuff you had. Makes it easier to split the group. Other guilds were doing this https://youtu.be/Vx6ipbVOWvY?t=219
    Dude, I raided Mythic Archimonde, I know all about it, and I'm telling you that Paragon is using an addon in that video that is dynamically assigning their positions.
    If it was just about splitting the group the warning would only need to tell them left or right, it's instead assigning them a number corresponding to the position they should take in line. This was necessary to cut down on the time needed to find a position that wasn't on top of another person between getting the debuff and the debuff going off.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    My first, and confusing reaction to this is...why would an addon, WA, have anything to do with how Blizzard designs their encounters? They don't take into consideration DBM or WA when coming up with encounters. And new players probably don't use WA or have heard of it.



    That sounds like a "Max" issue and not an "everyone else" issue. I've had no issue leading encounters without WA and I rarely use it for anything. I can think of only two encounters in the last two raid tiers that I've even used a WA for. It's not required and people can get along fine without it.
    Uh this isn't true they absolutely take dbm and wa into consideration when designing encounters there are many encounters that are so complex mechanically they would be near impossible even for top level players without boss mods.

    That said I would much rather have interesting encounters than tank and spank snooze fest.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Greyvax View Post
    There's a feedback loop associated here.

    1. Player creates addons to assist with encounter, thus making the encounters easier or sometimes trivial.
    2. Blizzard must design encounter difficulty with this in mind, essentially rendering these addons "required"
    Yes, but that's just the majority perception. I don't use WA - i have my cd/buff trackers because the default ones are useless, tucked in that upper right corner - because i find most of them just obnoxious and retardedly big. I know i could do them by myself, but i don't like the addon at all because i find it bloated of features. I mean, it's an incredible and super powerful addon, but i find myself basically not needing most of its features.

    Modern wow encounters have most of their mechanics clearly telegraphed. If you watch the screen, everything that's needed is there.

    Anyway, i agree that in the very top notch of competetive guilds, any advantage or thing that make the encounter easier, it's definitely a must. For casual progression, is not needed at all. Then we can discuss about "what if you use it you get better at fights", but that's another thing.
    You tried, and you failed. What have you learned? That's better not to try at all.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormbreed View Post
    Right over your head buddy,

    He's the BEST in the World, but admits its because of addons

    thats the problem
    No he doesn't rofl? He raid leads from the sidelines because it means he doesn't have to split his attention. He isn't raid leading via an in game addon he is raid leading via watching a direct stream.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pandragon View Post
    Thats completely untrue. I spent years main tanking and raid leading for my guild and my performance never suffered once.
    It actually did though, I've done the same and there were hectic times in fights where I know my tanking output suffered because I was focused on making calls. Everyone's does even if you can reduce your attention needed to play at 100% level down to 25% of your total attention and spend 75% on raid leading that's 25% more you could be spending on raid leading. The 21st man approach for progression level guilds is absolutely the right approach but if you are getting kills weeks later it's not necessary.

  10. #170
    IMHO the main problem is encounter design.
    In many mythic encounters I need to press my CDs and trinkets at a perfect time. Every try, or the boss won't die.
    With the default UI you will forget when to press the stuff.

    With weak auras I will press my CDs exactly at the right time even after 100 tryes after I long lost focus.

    Blizzard said they will make encounters less dependant on addons, that was about 10 years ago. Nothing has changed.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmist View Post
    What else you want to get rid of? DBM? Raid markers? Voice chat?

    It's all just "cheating" to make raids easier after all.

    What did raids look like before we had all this? Go to Molten Core and have a look. Bosses had like 2 mechanics.
    Monitors make the game too easy
    "Privilege is invisible to those who have it."

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmist View Post
    What else you want to get rid of? DBM? Raid markers? Voice chat?

    It's all just "cheating" to make raids easier after all.

    What did raids look like before we had all this? Go to Molten Core and have a look. Bosses had like 2 mechanics.
    People still died to these 2 mechanics. They still die even today to these 2 mechanics, with all the guides and addons.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormbreed View Post
    The fact the BEST raid leader on earth DOESNT PLAY THE GAME during progression proves I'm right.
    Removing Weakauras would make the 21st man even more important. Because then they players would have even less capacity to know what was going on during the fights themselves.

    Max says it himself: "A good raid leader thinks for the players so that they don't have to".

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Aurrora View Post
    Dude, I raided Mythic Archimonde, I know all about it, and I'm telling you that Paragon is using an addon in that video that is dynamically assigning their positions.
    If it was just about splitting the group the warning would only need to tell them left or right, it's instead assigning them a number corresponding to the position they should take in line. This was necessary to cut down on the time needed to find a position that wasn't on top of another person between getting the debuff and the debuff going off.
    Is the addon telling you where to stand or is the addon just assigning you a number based on what debuff you have?

  15. #175
    WA is only needed for Mythic Raiding and high level Keys.

    Hungering destroyer without addons in Mythic is just horrible and imho not doable.

    In Heroic i do not know ONE boss you need WA for tbh. Everything is highly visible and easily found.
    And a new player won't just jump into heroic. Given that there are ANY new players and not just returning ones.

    The 21st man will always be soemthing on the higehst levels. Look at football. If i play with my friends i don't need seomeone in the sidelines keeping an eye on the whole game and screaming advise and stuff. The more you go into professional territory the more the trainer as an influence on the success of the game.

    Just because you make the encounter less difficult and removing WA ( in turn making it BORING and easy by default ) doesn't mean the 21st man just vanishes.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmist View Post
    What did raids look like before we had all this? Go to Molten Core and have a look. Bosses had like 2 mechanics.
    One of the more disappointing things about Classic was being told I should get DBM to raid. I didn't anyway, but still, kinda sad that anyone felt it was necessary for Classic raids.

    That said, it would have been reasonable to make fights much more complex and still "ban" addons like DBM or Weakauras (from a design intent perspective at least, no idea how practicable that would be). The game had visual and audio cues for basically everything a boss does anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
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    How can you NOT give anything a gun? Freedom? Liberty? Where are your Freeberties?

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Qnubi View Post
    People still died to these 2 mechanics. They still die even today to these 2 mechanics, with all the guides and addons.
    I do not play with these kinds of people.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    I didn't anyway, but still, kinda sad that anyone felt it was necessary for Classic raids.
    I don't think anyone would argue it's NECESSARY. But it's a very easy way of making things a lot easier and increasing your performance, so if you care about min/maxing your performance there is little reason not to use it. If you don't care about the min/max then by all means do whatever you want as long as your group is cool with it.

    In much the same way, WA or addons of any kind aren't strictly NECESSARY to beat mythic - but not having them adds a significant extra layer of difficulty.

    They also work against certain forms of degeneracy. If, for example, we no longer had addons, world-first guilds would still do whatever they could to emulate the benefits of addons. Instead of WAs counting things down or whatever, they would for example have several people watching from outside, with stopwatches and notepads (or their equivalents) to manually keep track of things and call them out. There's no way to regulate that, and rather than "forcing" top-tier players into jumping through ridiculous hoops like that, allowing addons is a much more elegant solution.

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Grax View Post
    WeakAuras is a response to a problem, not the problem itself. With the current class design, and without WA, I end up tunneling my action bars pretty bad. Blizzard has went completely over the top with encounter design and that's what needs changed.
    I hear you. My eyes are glued on the action bar most of the time to not skip a beat. I recall a time when I could just press the buttons from muscle memory in the right order without having to look at them. That was so much more enjoyable (for me).

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    I do not play with these kinds of people.
    The delusion is strong in you, you literally raided with people that never ever even died once? So basically if your/their character had 1 life, you would still be around? hahaha

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