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  1. #1

    21'st Man, The reason WA's need to go.

    There are multiple reasons why Weak Aura's need to go. They actually limit design encounter, they over whelm new players and essentially make an add on required for any kind of content that matters.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXx8ZhIzdRQ

    This video opens a lot of holes.

    Max admitting he wasn't a strong enough player to raid lead and play the actual game. Basically making the game 21 man raids instead of 20.
    Max said he does it because he knows he's the best at it, but that's very subjective, if WA's go away he can't sit there and simply tell people when to push their buttons.

    I'd like to see them go.
    Last edited by Stormbreed; 2021-02-18 at 07:15 PM.

  2. #2
    So you think raids are too hard?

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Corroc View Post
    So you think raids are too hard?
    They're so hard you need computer programmers to create cheat programs to deal with them yeah.

  4. #4
    Warchief bloodwulf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormbreed View Post
    There are multiple reasons why Weak Aura's need to go. They actually limit design encounter, they over whelm new players and essentially make an add on required for any time of content that matters.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXx8ZhIzdRQ

    This video opens a lot of holes.

    Max admitting he wasn't a strong enough player to raid lead and play the actual game. Basically making the game 21 man raids instead of 20.
    Max said he does it because he knows he's the best at it, but that's very subjective, if WA's go away he can't sit there and simply tell people when to push their buttons.


    I'd like to see them go.
    Holy god that is a bad take. Max said it is more valuable to his raid if he can focus his attention on a singular role (raid lead or tank), not that he is too weak to do both. And if he didnt have WA, he would have another Cooldown timer or addon. There is a reason these teams pay someone to make DBM modules in real time during progression, and they release those packs after the raid. Ion said the 21st thing is cool and an interesting take, so its not likely going away, especially considering it ultimately affects 2-5 raid teams total.
    We live in an era of "me versus them", an era where something is done that you don't like means you are personally attacked. People whine too much.
    Let us play video games and be happy.

  5. #5
    this topic is gonna go over like a fart in church /popcorn

  6. #6
    Honorary PvM "Mod" Darsithis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormbreed View Post
    There are multiple reasons why Weak Aura's need to go. They actually limit design encounter, they over whelm new players and essentially make an add on required for any time of content that matters.
    My first, and confusing reaction to this is...why would an addon, WA, have anything to do with how Blizzard designs their encounters? They don't take into consideration DBM or WA when coming up with encounters. And new players probably don't use WA or have heard of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stormbreed View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXx8ZhIzdRQ

    This video opens a lot of holes.

    Max admitting he wasn't a strong enough player to raid lead and play the actual game. Basically making the game 21 man raids instead of 20.
    Max said he does it because he knows he's the best at it, but that's very subjective, if WA's go away he can't sit there and simply tell people when to push their buttons.

    I'd like to see them go.
    That sounds like a "Max" issue and not an "everyone else" issue. I've had no issue leading encounters without WA and I rarely use it for anything. I can think of only two encounters in the last two raid tiers that I've even used a WA for. It's not required and people can get along fine without it.

  7. #7
    The game could use a proper spectating tool so we could coach ingame rather than from someone else's screen. Coaching is a natural evolution and i'm honestly surprised it took this long before anyone tried actually doing it. I've been daydreaming about forgoing raidleading in favor of coaching since wod, and i'm sure someone else has had the same idea way before that too.
    | , chi torpedo specialist | Current pc setup | Join EuroRaid for new player friendly raids|

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormbreed View Post
    There are multiple reasons why Weak Aura's need to go. They actually limit design encounter, they over whelm new players and essentially make an add on required for any time of content that matters.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXx8ZhIzdRQ

    This video opens a lot of holes.

    Max admitting he wasn't a strong enough player to raid lead and play the actual game. Basically making the game 21 man raids instead of 20.
    Max said he does it because he knows he's the best at it, but that's very subjective, if WA's go away he can't sit there and simply tell people when to push their buttons.

    I'd like to see them go.
    Max said that no-one can play the game at the maximum level and raid-lead at the maximum level at the same time. One or the other will suffer.
    He actually also said that there are many occasions where it is more efficient to raid-lead from "within the game" even if your performance would suffer.
    He also said that for the majority of guilds it would be detrimental to have a "21st man" and that is solely was a world 1st issue.

    How you got WA's involved in your fake outrage about the "21st man" goes beyond me.

  9. #9
    [QUOTE=Darsithis;53020554]My first, and confusing reaction to this is...why would an addon, WA, have anything to do with how Blizzard designs their encounters? They don't take into consideration DBM or WA when coming up with encounters. And new players probably don't use WA or have heard of it.

    This happen in WoD before and they nerfed some of the api like tracking player location. which can now only be done in the open world out of combat.
    they specifically stated that it limited their design in the past. This along with camera zoom nerf are one of many things that made me quit just after the start of legion.

    BUT I do think WeakAura are needed but not because we need them for a specific encounter I just think blizzard fails to adequately design bosses with good indicators about there attacks/range/spells. they have come along way with improving this but I still think they could do a better job. in raids there is already so much clutter WA help present the information In a way that is pleasing to the eyes compared to your default UI.

    I do think WA for some players is required but not everyone needs it. While I do think it will increase most players performance I don't see this as a bad thing I just see it as blizzarding failing to make things clear enough for players to need it.

  10. #10
    Weakauras definitely are gamebreaking at times.
    The biggest offender I can remember was the Archimonde one with the map for beams which just trivialized the mechanic completely.

    But I don't think Weakauras should be removed. It's an excellent addon with a huge variety of uses. I would like to see some more limits put on what it can do though.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by T-34 View Post
    He also said that for the majority of guilds it would be detrimental to have a "21st man" and that is solely was a world 1st issue.

    How you got WA's involved in your fake outrage about the "21st man" goes beyond me.
    He couldn't be more wrong in that... Our raid leader also raid leads outside the raid, watching his little brother play.
    Its tremendous and its so insanely good that we're talking about not having it, because we would become far to dependant on it, in scenarios where he cant make it etc...

    Don't be fooled, it truly is an additional player in the team.... I doubt anyone in any world first team can afford not having that 21st person, going forward. It will be the new norm for WF guilds. IF you dont have that person, you just wont be able to compete.

    Far as WA's they've taken to far... There's so many mandatory addons for tanking or healing its not even funny anymore.
    I have a WA that automatically marks all important mobs in a dungeon, WA for every debuff, every mechanic, special for cooldowns and its stupid....

  12. #12
    What else you want to get rid of? DBM? Raid markers? Voice chat?

    It's all just "cheating" to make raids easier after all.

    What did raids look like before we had all this? Go to Molten Core and have a look. Bosses had like 2 mechanics.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    My first, and confusing reaction to this is...why would an addon, WA, have anything to do with how Blizzard designs their encounters? They don't take into consideration DBM or WA when coming up with encounters.
    OPs take is dumb, but I wanna touch on this a bit.

    This is nonsense.

    Blizzard absolutely designs encounters with boss mods and WAs in mind. That's why encounters have gotten more and more and more complex over the years. if they still designed encounters the way they did in 2007-2010, they would be completely trivial to the playerbase. It's impossible to claim WAs doesn't affect encounter design. It very obviously does.

    Whether or not that's a problem is up to each individual to decide. I do personally think encounter design has gotten out of hand, and is far too complex. I've felt that way since Heroic Klaxxi in SoO... and it's only gotten worse since then. I think Mythic raiding in general is far too complex. Not too hard, just overly complex.

  14. #14
    WeakAuras is a response to a problem, not the problem itself. With the current class design, and without WA, I end up tunneling my action bars pretty bad. Blizzard has went completely over the top with encounter design and that's what needs changed.


    Blizzard absolutely designs encounters with boss mods and WAs in mind. That's why encounters have gotten more and more and more complex over the years. if they still designed encounters the way they did in 2007-2010, they would be completely trivial to the playerbase. It's impossible to claim WAs doesn't affect encounter design. It very obviously does.

    Whether or not that's a problem is up to each individual to decide. I do personally think encounter design has gotten out of hand, and is far too complex. I've felt that way since Heroic Klaxxi in SoO... and it's only gotten worse since then. I think Mythic raiding in general is far too complex. Not too hard, just overly complex.

    Quoted for truth.
    Last edited by Grax; 2021-02-18 at 05:08 PM.

  15. #15
    There's a feedback loop associated here.

    1. Player creates addons to assist with encounter, thus making the encounters easier or sometimes trivial.
    2. Blizzard must design encounter difficulty with this in mind, essentially rendering these addons "required"

  16. #16
    Second comment on YT pretty much nailed it.

    I don't understand why people think that this is controversial. Football coaches aren't on the field, even other esports have coaches not playing. Captains call out the little things they're seeing and the coach is calling big picture plays.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulfric Trumpcloak View Post
    People on this site hate everything. Keep that in mind.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Greyvax View Post
    There's a feedback loop associated here.

    1. Player creates addons to assist with encounter, thus making the encounters easier or sometimes trivial.
    2. Blizzard must design encounter difficulty with this in mind, essentially rendering these addons "required"
    Exactly. The arms race between Blizz and addon devs is not good, imo.

  18. #18
    Can't say I encountered a fight yet where weakauras are required.

    I know lots of fights have fancy weakauras created by others, but thinking they are necessary just tells me more about your skill tbh.

    debuff tracking is a default thing in the game. Weakauras make it more customizable for your liking though.
    Announcing things can be done, but weakauras and bigwigs/dbm can certainly help with that by reducing voice clutter. However, still possible to announce without them as well.

    That's in essence what you really need for any raid encounter.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormbreed View Post
    There are multiple reasons why Weak Aura's need to go. They actually limit design encounter, they over whelm new players and essentially make an add on required for any time of content that matters.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXx8ZhIzdRQ

    This video opens a lot of holes.

    Max admitting he wasn't a strong enough player to raid lead and play the actual game. Basically making the game 21 man raids instead of 20.
    Max said he does it because he knows he's the best at it, but that's very subjective, if WA's go away he can't sit there and simply tell people when to push their buttons.

    I'd like to see them go.
    I'd be curious to see if Blizzard raid tests with specific addons like Weak Auras. If so, why aren't they apart of the game?

  20. #20
    I think currently the best designed boss is Mythic Sludgefist.

    Why? Because he doesn't have a billion different mechanics, he does a couple of things but those REALLY hurt. WAs on that fight sure are helpful, but you can definitely play this boss without them. Most other fights you feel like you are actively making the boss 10 times harder if you dont use WAs.

    And I do think it is a very, very valid concern that raiding (Mythic in particular) has become massively dependent on third party addons. You shouldn't need to install tons of third party weak auras just to be able to do bosses effectively. That's just a broken game.

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