21'st Man, The reason WA's need to go.

[Makabreska]

I'd say unnecessarily complex. Some encounters are complex to the degree of absurdity.
The solution is proper raid design aimed at normal people, not banning addons.

I don't see anything "improper" in CN. Bosses are all w/o any wild mechanics there. Sure, tight movement and DPS checks are required, but that's in every raid. And there are already raids tailored towards "normal" people. They are called Normal Raids. You can't really design Mythics and not increase complexity, and most of these Mythic strats looks wild mainly on paper, anyway.

[jimichaelk]

This thread is dumb, these are world first raiders not filthy casuals. If wow removed weakaura and DBM then every raid group would need a 21st man sitting there recording the timings of abilities to call them out to the raid group. Even this would only last a few weeks because they have actual programmers that would make basically DBM but outside of wow and the 21st man would be inputting the necessary information to use that. They don’t sit there and cry when they need something they don’t have, they actively do something about it.

[Stormbreed]

What does it matter though it doesn't affect you at all? Max would also just go back to tanking or healing and lead from there and do just as good, your under valuing how much a good raid lead does.

Right over your head buddy,

He's the BEST in the World, but admits its because of addons

thats the problem

[Makabreska]

This thread is dumb, these are world first raiders not filthy casuals..

People still use this phrase unironically?

But ye, these addons are now a part o the game. Remove them, and people will find workarounds.

[Rinnegan2]

WeakAuras will be part of the base UI a few years down the road. they enable groups of raiders to overcome challenges that seemed impossible - which creates great memories and epic moments - exactly what WoW is all about.

[Makabreska]

Right over your head buddy,

He's the BEST in the World, but admits its because of addons

thats the problem

The addons every player has an access to? Shouldn't we have "best in the world" all around, then?

[hulkgor]

There are multiple reasons why Weak Aura's need to go. They actually limit design encounter, they over whelm new players and essentially make an add on required for any kind of content that matters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXx8ZhIzdRQ

This video opens a lot of holes.

Max admitting he wasn't a strong enough player to raid lead and play the actual game. Basically making the game 21 man raids instead of 20.
Max said he does it because he knows he's the best at it, but that's very subjective, if WA's go away he can't sit there and simply tell people when to push their buttons.

I'd like to see them go.

Any time addons allow for stuff beyond what blizzard considers adequate, they get cut.

- AVR (https://www.wowace.com/projects/avr)
- Player coordinates inside dungeons (Archimonde beams - https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=207&v=rB8tVnIBUtg ), etc.

So i disagree entirely with your opinion, and i'm still trying to understand what Max has to do with WA\Addons.

[Stormbreed]

What does it matter though it doesn't affect you at all? Max would also just go back to tanking or healing and lead from there and do just as good, your under valuing how much a good raid lead does.

You mean, he'd go back to actually playing the game. Which is the point.

[RobertoCarlos]

"sub me in coach im ready!"

[Lochton]

You may as well get rid of the other addons as well.

[Darsithis]

How could they not take those into consideration? They absolutely do, it's almost impossible they don't. Why else would there be such a sharp increase in difficulty over the years? Players getting better at the game? Not likely.

Go do mythic CN with no raiding addon and see how it goes. It would be next to impossible unless you already know the fights inside and out because of those addons.

I dunno about that, I don't think they design for any particular addon but I'd be amazed if they designed without addons in mind at all.

It would actually be horrendous if they truly didn't think about addons whatsoever when they designed an encounter. If anything I think they think about them heavily so that they can design encounters that are not completely trivialized by such tools. The addons challenge and allow their designers to be more creative than they otherwise could be.

I have no doubt that encounter design would look completely different if not for the existence of these addons..

I probably shouldn't have said they don't take addons into consideration. How I interpreted the OP was that they would purposely drop encounters or parts of encounters because addons exist, and I disagree. They wouldn't initially drop or change encounters because DBM exists. They would, however, during testing with those addons, make tweaks and adjustments.

[callipygoustp]

@Stormbreed: Ridiculous

[Frolk]

There are multiple reasons why Weak Aura's need to go. They actually limit design encounter, they over whelm new players and essentially make an add on required for any kind of content that matters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXx8ZhIzdRQ

This video opens a lot of holes.

Max admitting he wasn't a strong enough player to raid lead and play the actual game. Basically making the game 21 man raids instead of 20.
Max said he does it because he knows he's the best at it, but that's very subjective, if WA's go away he can't sit there and simply tell people when to push their buttons.

I'd like to see them go.

Another HORRIBLE take my man.

[hulkgor]

Just a while back, OP was asking for a WA to deal with Inspiring... but now WA need to go.

Love it.

[Stormbreed]

Just a while back, OP was asking for a WA to deal with Inspiring... but now WA need to go.

Love it.

So you're saying I can't use whats available while still not liking it is? Grow up and stay on topic.

I think WA's and a lot of addons are basically playing the game for us right now, and encounters are being designed with them in mind, which in itself is a HUGE problem. The fact the BEST raid leader on earth DOESNT PLAY THE GAME during progression proves I'm right.

[bloodwulf]

Maybe you should watch the video, he admits he wasn't good enough to do both and still get world 1st.

Which means we've come to a point where reading out addons at exact moments is more important than the game itself. If you can't kill a boss without addon's the addon shouldn't be in the game.

End of story.

That is nowhere near what he said, i was in the stream where he discussed this. He said that no matter how good of a player you are, if you are doing both raid leading and performing a role in the raid, you will sacrifice quality of one or both. He said he does it now because he has tanks that he feels he can rely on, so it allows him to step back and focus solely on the 21st man role. Nowhere did he say he wasn't good enough to do both, and he had done both raid lead and perform his role for years, he just felt it was better for the guild as a whole if he could dedicate his focus solely on the 21st man role.

You are just full of bad takes man. You realize WA is not the sole culprit right? 21st man won't go away if WA goes away. Also i don't understand how this affects you at all, because there is no way you are in a situation that you would compete with Limit/Method/Pieces/BDGG and are being held back by the lack of 21st man. Blizzard does not design based on the 1%, so Limit doing a 21st man fight is not going to make it the only option for casuals.

[hulkgor]

So you're saying I can't use whats available while still not liking it is? Grow up and stay on topic.

I think WA's and a lot of addons are basically playing the game for us right now, and encounters are being designed with them in mind, which in itself is a HUGE problem. The fact the BEST raid leader on earth DOESNT PLAY THE GAME during progression proves I'm right.

First off, he's the raid leader of the best guild atm, not the 'best raid leader'. That's a weird jump.

Also, just because he can't do both, doesn't mean others don't. The vast majority of guilds have their RL actually playing alongside them, so, it's not even mandatory to have a '21st man' going... Anyone with added responsibility will have a dip on performance, regardless of addon usage. The simple fact that he needs to look around to check player\mobs placement, overall movement, callout for timers\mechanics or simply having to communicate whatever has an impact -EVEN WITHOUT A SINGLE ADDON-. Guilds hoping for WF will always go the extra step, and every race will bring new methods or tools to keep having that extra edge. That does not apply to 99.9% of the guilds currently raiding.

Your entire notion is asinine. And how can a "WA" basically play the game for you? Are you even for real?

[Baconeggcheese]

f you take the add-ons out of the game, suddenly Max doesn't need to be the 21'st man.

I really don't understand how you've twisted what he said into this idea.

Nothing about the calls he's making goes away without the existence of addons, it just becomes significantly more difficult to do what he's doing. His role that he's taken on is facilitated by addons, not a necessity because of them.

These fights would become tremendously more difficult if addons didn't exist, and would ultimately result in simpler more shallow encounter design by necessity since players would be more blind and have to use more bandwidth to react to everything going on.

[Weeps]

Back in the day I played competitive Quake 3 iCTF.

The game had spectator mode. It was really fun to be able to watch

[Stormbreed]

First off, he's the raid leader of the best guild atm, not the 'best raid leader'. That's a weird jump.

Also, just because he can't do both, doesn't mean others don't. The vast majority of guilds have their RL actually playing alongside them, so, it's not even mandatory to have a '21st man' going... Anyone with added responsibility will have a dip on performance, regardless of addon usage. The simple fact that he needs to look around to check player\mobs placement, overall movement, callout for timers\mechanics or simply having to communicate whatever has an impact -EVEN WITHOUT A SINGLE ADDON-. Guilds hoping for WF will always go the extra step, and every race will bring new methods or tools to keep having that extra edge. That does not apply to 99.9% of the guilds currently raiding.

Your entire notion is asinine. And how can a "WA" basically play the game for you? Are you even for real?

The fact you don't consider the world first guilds raid leader the best raid leader, when the world 2nd guild copied him shows you're lost in your anger, you want so desperately to prove me wrong you can't get over the fact you proved yourself wrong in this thread.

If you can find me one video of a guild that doesn't use WA's that has 10/10 or a video of Max watching the stream of someone not using addon's and making successful call outs, maybe you'd have a point.