21'st Man, The reason WA's need to go.

[Aurrora]

That's not true. Watch Paragon's first kill vid and you'll see them play the fight without the player position radar thing. Yes, they were still using a WA, but what they came up with had absolutely nothing to do with relative player positions.

Literally used an addon telling people where to position themselves, yes it wasn't as sophisticated as the solutions that came after but the point stands that Wrought Chaos was an impossible ability to handle without an addon.

[Gasparde]

Literally used an addon telling people where to position themselves, yes it wasn't as sophisticated as the solutions that came after but the point stands that Wrought Chaos was an impossible ability to handle without an addon.

And what's the problem with that? If you have the data that everyone playing your game is using addons... why not build encounters around everyone using addons?
You act like having addons installed somehow makes your game harder/worse. Take addons away and a fight like Archimonde would've lost like half of its mechanics (most importantly, the most impactful mechanics) - boy oh boy, Archimonde whit P1 being nothing but picking up embers and grabbing a light orb every now and then surely sounds exciting... maybe they could have even added a dispellable debuff into the mix!

[Kelduril]

Yeah I agree. Addons make the raid way easier.

Like a Weak Aura that yells someone's HP percentage during Hungering Destroyer Miasma. Without it you'd have to either soak the full Miasma ( leading to more dmg taken by the raid because of stacks ) or you'd need to monitor their HP, which distracts you and lowers your DPS.

[Byleth]

I'm not sure how you took any of that from what i said. I never blamed WA, i even said without them something else would take its place. Raid Leading and performing a primary role take an equal amount of focus, and if you commit to doing both, one or both degrade in quality. The video OP was talking about Max goes over this extensively, talking about mental bandwidth available. Also you must not of watched any of Method or Limits streams during progression, because even using a 21st man they still had some people calling out things, no one was "afraid to let go". Also there is such thing as too many Chefs in the kitchen. If you have everyone talking, no one does anything. To assume that Max is not delegating, or that Method's raid leads are not delegating is laughable.

Calm down mate.

Learn to use paragraphs.

[Relapses]

Literally used an addon telling people where to position themselves, yes it wasn't as sophisticated as the solutions that came after but the point stands that Wrought Chaos was an impossible ability to handle without an addon.

The Method WA made Wrought Chaos significantly easier to handle but Paragon used pre-planned positions and numbers to handle the Wrought Chaos.

[Elkfingers]

Umm...you literally are explaining a script.
You would be surprised how difficult it is to have people follow basic tasks without failing. Saying "Everyone would be 10/10 if it was just scripted"

Dude, these add ons literally tell you where to stand, when to run, where to run to, how long until the next boss ability so on and so forth.


Is it your position that mythic raiding would be fully cleared without any of these addons enabled? All 20 players will be able to fight the boss without having any addons tell them when something is occuring or when to run, or how to line up or how far to stand from one another?

Yeah obviously you could. The whole 'script' thing is just semantics and I have no time for it lol. A chef has to follow a set of instructions to cook a dish, but even if somebody is giving you instructions you're not going to be able to bang out a 2 Michelin star standard dish without already having the skills to follow those instructions properly.

The fact that you're being given prompts about how to handle mechanics doesn't suddenly remove all skill requirements when it comes to handling them effectively.

Legit dude, if you think you just have to follow a script, go trial for Limit lmao. Such a dumb take.

[kamuimac]

So you think raids are too hard?

yes .

they have have be too hard and overtuned for years now - since cata it was only worse and worse

there is a reason why WoLK was golden age of both game as whole and raiding.

because it was tuned perfecly.

after that it went downhill and so went game overall.

this is direct fault of catering only to top 5%.

CN is prime example of that - you have so many overlaps of mechanics even on hc that it makes many encounters simply not fun . also stuff hits for way way to much effectively 1-2 shoting you if you fuck up even once and many times you have split seconds to make decisions even in very hectiv sitations. very very unfun design .

[Wilfire]

Both DBM and WAs have to go. With DBM and WAs, raid design will always be an arms race vs. addon creators with ever growing complexity.

[apustus]

Are you joking? Mythic Archimonde's Wrought Chaos was impossible to handle without an addon showing everyone's positioning.

[Kumorii]

Both DBM and WAs have to go. With DBM and WAs, raid design will always be an arms race vs. addon creators with ever growing complexity.

DBM are just inverse combat timer...
Start a combat timer and then you learn by which minute X mechanic start etc etc...

[azka]

There are multiple reasons why Weak Aura's need to go. They actually limit design encounter, they over whelm new players and essentially make an add on required for any kind of content that matters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXx8ZhIzdRQ

This video opens a lot of holes.

Max admitting he wasn't a strong enough player to raid lead and play the actual game. Basically making the game 21 man raids instead of 20.
Max said he does it because he knows he's the best at it, but that's very subjective, if WA's go away he can't sit there and simply tell people when to push their buttons.

I'd like to see them go.

No


/10chars

[klogaroth]

The need for a 21st player as raid leader at world first level would actually go up with no addons. Not down.

[Aurrora]

Literally using an addon that's dynamically assigning people's positions.

[Frozenbro]

That sounds like a "Max" issue and not an "everyone else" issue. I've had no issue leading encounters without WA and I rarely use it for anything. I can think of only two encounters in the last two raid tiers that I've even used a WA for. It's not required and people can get along fine without it.

I dont use addons for LFR either dude, we are the same! now can you give a proper example and not compare your nonexistant experience to a world first raider? thanks.

[Corroc]

Literally using an addon that's dynamically assigning people's positions.

But are they?

I know the answer and its no, there is no addon involved there

[ztkraptor]

Yeah obviously you could. The whole 'script' thing is just semantics and I have no time for it lol. A chef has to follow a set of instructions to cook a dish, but even if somebody is giving you instructions you're not going to be able to bang out a 2 Michelin star standard dish without already having the skills to follow those instructions properly.

The fact that you're being given prompts about how to handle mechanics doesn't suddenly remove all skill requirements when it comes to handling them effectively.

Legit dude, if you think you just have to follow a script, go trial for Limit lmao. Such a dumb take.

I was already in multiple top 50 world raiding guilds...
You would be surprised how mad some raid leaders get and how many people get replaced for not following the script.

And yes, you can make food just as good as a whatever star chef, so long as you have their tools(aka gear) just by following the script.
What do you think they do? Put a spell on the food? It is quite literally following instructions to make the food...
It is less about their "skill" and more about their tools that they have to accomplish the stuff.


Again, turn off the add-ons and I bet you bosses at this level don't die.
Its a problem because add-ons force blizzard to make fights more and more intense and hard because you essentially are playing against people following a script and don't really have a dynamic to it.

[kaminaris]

Its a problem because add-ons force blizzard to make fights more and more intense and hard because you essentially are playing against people following a script and don't really have a dynamic to it.

It is the other way around. Because blizzard is trying so hard to counter top world guilds, all the rest suffers. Tools will exist regardless. But if the need (demand) to have such elaborate addons/wa would go down because of SIMPLER encounter designs, the supply will also go down.

Nobody forces blizzard, thats ridiculous.

[melodramocracy]

They don't take into consideration DBM or WA when coming up with encounters.

They absolutely do work on the assumption that most folks are using DBM or similar.

As far as 21st man raid leading, this is just the natural evolution of competitive play, and you can bet it's been done for a very long time, just sort of 'under the covers'.

[CharlieIrwin]

So you think raids are too hard?

[Aurrora]

But are they?

I know the answer and its no, there is no addon involved there

Do you not see the numbers that are appearing above their heads when wrought chaos starts? That's the position being assigned to them by the addon.