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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormbreed View Post
    Maybe you should watch the video, he admits he wasn't good enough to do both and still get world 1st.
    Which means we've come to a point where reading out addons at exact moments is more important than the game itself. If you can't kill a boss without addon's the addon shouldn't be in the game.
    End of story.
    I think you got two things confused here. First you talk about addons needed to get a world 1st, then about needing them to kill a boss. Those are two different things - he never said you are unable to kill a boss if you don't use said addons to the max of your capabilities - he said you won't get world 1st without it. Which is rather obvious, since in a race of the very best players in the world, you really need to use every small thing to your advantage.
    But that hardly means good players are unable to kill bosses without addons. Pretty sure they can, it will only take more practice and patience to learn the ins & outs of every encounter (and maybe a bit higher ilvl to offset the fact that you won't be able to use every cooldown as effectively). But why do that, if the addons exist? Only to prove some point?

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Corroc View Post
    So you think raids are too hard?
    Not at all, he thinks they are unnecessarily complex.

    Challenge Mode : Play WoW like my disability has me play:
    You will need two people, Brian MUST use the mouse for movement/looking and John MUST use the keyboard for casting, attacking, healing etc.
    Briand and John share the same goal, same intentions - but they can't talk to each other, however they can react to each other's in game activities.
    Now see how far Brian and John get in WoW.


  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Pro-Violence View Post
    I'm not so sure about that?

    I can't recall many raidbosses over the past few expansions in which almost every World top 3000 guild didn't use weakauras to try and deal with certain mechanics. I'd argue that some raidmechanics on mythic might be even entirely impossible if you didn't have an addon for them (eg. the Mekkatorque robots come to mind).
    What addon was required for robots? iirc we just jumped in a called who would say the colors for 2 people and afterwards 1 called his. We used announcer to see the names over the robots easier due to blizzard UI being shit by default. I wouldn't say it's impossible without it though. Since you can just call your own name.
    Last edited by Kumorii; 2021-02-23 at 12:21 PM.
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  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post
    Yes, let's completely ignore their experience and skill in using those tools.

    Having the time to repeat the same thing over and over again and follow the script isn't "skill"

    Want to hit top dps? There is literally an add-on that tells you what to press and when to press it.
    Then you add that in with following the script of the add-ons and it just takes time, anyone can do it.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by enigma77 View Post
    They're so hard you need computer programmers to create cheat programs to deal with them yeah.
    No it helps raiders to kill em faster with less gear/ resets and pay less attention to voice lines or boss animations.
    It's definetly not a must have. For the vast majority of the raiders. To the top 0.001% yes it's required.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    My first, and confusing reaction to this is...why would an addon, WA, have anything to do with how Blizzard designs their encounters? They don't take into consideration DBM or WA when coming up with encounters. And new players probably don't use WA or have heard of it.
    Yes they do. There was an interview and they said they design raids knowing DBM is a thing. Trying to find it, but I remember this clearly because of one of my friends who refuses to use the addon even to this day.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post

    My guild was always super super casual but I still wanted an "observer mode" so I could occasionally raid lead from outside the group. Mostly on those nights in Cata when pickings were slim and we'd be running 2 10 man groups, being able to raid lead both at the same time would have been awesome. Also would mean I could give up my spot to someone else who really wanted it. Sorry, as you were
    Yeah, exactly. I know people have been doing it to some degree for many years, or wanted to but didn't have the tools. It's just such an obvious thing to do, looking at loads of real life examples(or even esports like CS:GO where it was briefly a thing)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ztkraptor View Post
    Having the time to repeat the same thing over and over again and follow the script isn't "skill"

    Want to hit top dps? There is literally an add-on that tells you what to press and when to press it.
    Then you add that in with following the script of the add-ons and it just takes time, anyone can do it.
    That addon(Hekili/HeroDamage) won't be able to tell you the right answer in every situation. And discounting experience is just absurd, that's how you build up any skill.
    Tradushuffle
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    Laughing Skull-EU

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Marxman View Post
    OPs take is dumb, but I wanna touch on this a bit.

    This is nonsense.

    Blizzard absolutely designs encounters with boss mods and WAs in mind. That's why encounters have gotten more and more and more complex over the years. if they still designed encounters the way they did in 2007-2010, they would be completely trivial to the playerbase. It's impossible to claim WAs doesn't affect encounter design. It very obviously does.

    Whether or not that's a problem is up to each individual to decide. I do personally think encounter design has gotten out of hand, and is far too complex. I've felt that way since Heroic Klaxxi in SoO... and it's only gotten worse since then. I think Mythic raiding in general is far too complex. Not too hard, just overly complex.
    This 100%^^^^

    Infact, Blizzard had even stated years ago that they design encounters around the fact that we have these add-ons. Without them it would be impossible to beat these raids unless you were a WF team.
    Raid encounters are far more complex today then they were in vanilla. Like the OP said...if you wanna know what raids would boil down to without them...we'd have vanilla and maybe even TBC style raids because anymore complex and well over 95% of the playerbase is screwed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaslave View Post
    Weakauras definitely are gamebreaking at times.
    The biggest offender I can remember was the Archimonde one with the map for beams which just trivialized the mechanic completely.

    But I don't think Weakauras should be removed. It's an excellent addon with a huge variety of uses. I would like to see some more limits put on what it can do though.
    I did that fight and beat it. I'd like to see raiders defeat that mechanic without a WA. Infact, that mechanic was definitely built considering we had the WA for it. Because their is no way your whole raid could stand in the right spot and not nuke people without it. And even then with it...took a little bit of practice.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post



    That addon(Hekili/HeroDamage) won't be able to tell you the right answer in every situation. And discounting experience is just absurd, that's how you build up any skill.
    It will put you in the top 3 of your guild 100% every time.

    I'm not discounting experience, Im saying they can't do the fights without addons. That means the fights are being built based on knowing people have addons its a cyclical thing.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by ztkraptor View Post
    It will put you in the top 3 of your guild 100% every time.

    I'm not discounting experience, Im saying they can't do the fights without addons. That means the fights are being built based on knowing people have addons its a cyclical thing.
    It definitely won't. It doesn't account for holding CDs for burn phases or add spawns, for example. It also doesn't have the power to make classes balanced.
    Tradushuffle
    <Echoes>
    Laughing Skull-EU

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormbreed View Post
    There are multiple reasons why Weak Aura's need to go. They actually limit design encounter, they over whelm new players and essentially make an add on required for any kind of content that matters.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXx8ZhIzdRQ

    This video opens a lot of holes.

    Max admitting he wasn't a strong enough player to raid lead and play the actual game. Basically making the game 21 man raids instead of 20.
    Max said he does it because he knows he's the best at it, but that's very subjective, if WA's go away he can't sit there and simply tell people when to push their buttons.

    I'd like to see them go.
    while on a base of principle I agree that WA's are objectively bad, I also prefer to keep them simply because of how piss poor the base UI is, and the only way to get rid of them is to get rid of addons.

    having the leader sit out and coach from the side isnt a 1st in wow. people have done it in every game the moment it turned competitive, League, CSGO, Dota, etc. being able to fully focus on strategic and tactical components without having to worry about gameplay is simply insanely efficient, and the only deterent is that people would want to play themselves, but the moment you turn anything into an E-sport and theres more to it than just playing a video game, this has happened.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by enigma77 View Post
    They're so hard you need computer programmers to create cheat programs to deal with them yeah.
    no? you can easily do every fight without any addons. they are mostly to keep track of other players in ur raids, and allowing you to play the game for them since finding 20 competent people isnt possible.

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post
    It definitely won't. It doesn't account for holding CDs for burn phases or add spawns, for example. It also doesn't have the power to make classes balanced.
    It will. lol. and yes it has functionality to change its functionality if certain number of ads are around.

    Who said anything about balancing a class?

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by ztkraptor View Post
    It will. lol. and yes it has functionality to change its functionality if certain number of ads are around.

    Who said anything about balancing a class?
    Hekili and HeroDamage don't take into account adds spawning/vulnerability windows in the future and whether you should hold CDs for those, no. And it can't make you top 3 100% if you're playing like... Beast Mastery, because the spec is not good. You can't guarantee that it'll make you top 3, because that depends entirely on the rest of the raid/guild.
    Tradushuffle
    <Echoes>
    Laughing Skull-EU

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    It is the other way around. Because blizzard is trying so hard to counter top world guilds, all the rest suffers. Tools will exist regardless. But if the need (demand) to have such elaborate addons/wa would go down because of SIMPLER encounter designs, the supply will also go down.

    Nobody forces blizzard, thats ridiculous.
    They cant exactly go back that easily, if they somehow designed an easy raid so you dont need giga specific weak auras, it would get meme'd on, just like Emerald Nightmare was, its just how it is, and if they wanted to they could remove the use of them just like they were against the radar thing on archimonde.

    And to the "all the rest suffers", who suffers specifically? Hall of Fame guilds and some Cutting Edge guilds only if any (?), those are the only players that experience the actual real encounters pre nerf, everyone else tackle the nerfed content, so thats a tiny part of the community.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by ztkraptor View Post
    Having the time to repeat the same thing over and over again and follow the script isn't "skill"

    Want to hit top dps? There is literally an add-on that tells you what to press and when to press it.
    Then you add that in with following the script of the add-ons and it just takes time, anyone can do it.
    Sounds like an LFR raider. If you follow the add-on you will parse greens at best.
    And if your eyes are on the add-on you will die to simple mechanics.

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by azka View Post
    Sounds like an LFR raider. If you follow the add-on you will parse greens at best.
    And if your eyes are on the add-on you will die to simple mechanics.
    That's too far in the other extreme. The addons can absolutely make you perform well for your spec(90%+), but claiming they'll guarantee you top3 in your guild or raid is just silly, because it ignores a lot of context.
    Tradushuffle
    <Echoes>
    Laughing Skull-EU

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormbreed View Post
    There are multiple reasons why Weak Aura's need to go. They actually limit design encounter, they over whelm new players and essentially make an add on required for any kind of content that matters.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXx8ZhIzdRQ

    This video opens a lot of holes.

    Max admitting he wasn't a strong enough player to raid lead and play the actual game. Basically making the game 21 man raids instead of 20.
    Max said he does it because he knows he's the best at it, but that's very subjective, if WA's go away he can't sit there and simply tell people when to push their buttons.

    I'd like to see them go.
    These addons allow the attention to be focused on the actual content instead of trying to remember timings and such so its not a good idea to remove such addons, they dont limit design encounter they actually allow them to be made harder since raid teams can manage each bosses abilities much easier rather than having to remember timings for every single mechanic on every single boss.

    If you cant play at least reasonably well and raid lead at the same time then that player is not really that great to begin with.
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  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Marxman View Post
    Whether or not that's a problem is up to each individual to decide. I do personally think encounter design has gotten out of hand, and is far too complex. I've felt that way since Heroic Klaxxi in SoO... and it's only gotten worse since then. I think Mythic raiding in general is far too complex. Not too hard, just overly complex.
    I don't do much mythic-level raiding, but if you look at the sheer number of "things to do" for a raid team in -Heroic- Castle Nathria compared even to last expansion's raids, it's getting a bit overwhelming. Final bosses are always complicated, and there have always been gimmick bosses like Mekkatorque or Eonar or even Blackfuse, but Nathria feels like every boss has some sort of gimmick, whether it's sheeping both shades on Houndmaster, running portals and explosives on Xy'mox, hitting the barrels on Darkvein, the Council of Blood dance party, etc. There's no "relax" boss except for maybe Destroyer, but even that's got at least 3 "big shift position" mechanics.

    I'm glad I'm not raid leading anymore. I'd lose my mind.

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by azka View Post
    Sounds like an LFR raider. If you follow the add-on you will parse greens at best.
    And if your eyes are on the add-on you will die to simple mechanics.
    LOL, You really don't understand how the addon works do you?
    It is extremely clear that you don't know what you are talking about.
    I've been in a top 100 raiding guild my entire life and yes I use the addon every now and then when playing an alt, parse top 95% every time for my class.

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by ztkraptor View Post
    LOL, You really don't understand how the addon works do you?
    It is extremely clear that you don't know what you are talking about.
    I've been in a top 100 raiding guild my entire life and yes I use the addon every now and then when playing an alt, parse top 95% every time for my class.
    Then do us all a favour and post your armoury.

    Like the Tradu's post is quite correct - addons purely don't get you to the Top DPS spot. They help but they aren't 100% responsible for it.

    He actually provided you with some decent reasons why such as boss spawning adds/sludgefist hitting pillar on why certain addons may be off. Not to mention RNG can also play a part.
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