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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by slime View Post
    I had some bad experiences this week trying to pug a newish 195 blood dk, but never above a +4 key.

    It's tough as a tank because we are going in blind to a pug. I still say if there was at least someway to see their ilvls - they can see ours?

    I'll go into a group and end up responsible for everything most of the time.
    inspect them when you join the group... or get addons that show peoples ilvl in the tooltip when you hover their frames... i see people's ilvl when i hover over their frames...

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by intenz View Post
    I've never in 15 years seen anyone in a group tell the tank how to tank. Never. I've seen countless tanks tell the healer how to heal and the dps how to dps and how to interrupt as though interrupts have a 3s cooldown. Just another of these tank circle jerk threads that at odds with reality. Tanks are played by the most tryhard diva players generally and if I ever see toxicity on a run it's usually from the tank. If someone ditches a key over the first wipe, it's the tank. Toxic tanks are the main reason for M+ leavers generally.
    I’ve seen lots of people telling me how to tank. Even in timed runs I’ve been criticized by, and this is fun, the only person who died the whole run.

    Our experiences are quite different.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Vakna View Post
    Gonna have to hard disagree on this one, DPS is much more important than you give it credit for, especially at the 15+ levels, not more than a Tank, but definitely more than the Healer. You said that you would take a dps with 1k less who gets all their interrupts, but I would say get all the interrupts and also do that 1k because pressing an interrupt shouldn't even affect your rotation, it's off the GCD and should be on a key you press by muscle memory at this point. You are also not going to get very far in timing keys where damage matters if you settle for 1k less on every pull, that's a staggeringly large amount of dmg over the course of a 30-40 minute key.
    DPS gets more important the higher you go, to the extent that eventually the tank is just following a pre-determined script, the healer is supplemental dps, and the dps are the ones making the run happen.

    The fact that this thread is such a tank circle jerk and so many people don't even use MDT (which makes tanking trivial) makes me think people here only do low keys without any research or preparation and then get tilted about "how hard tanking is" when they inevitably do things wrong. All tanking is in WoW is a matter of doing your due diligence whether it's a raid boss fight or M+. Tanking is the least mechanically demanding of the roles.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    I disagree compeltely. The things you are talking about is everyones responsebility. Not just the dps. You sound like someone who isnt pushing keys tbf
    I thought the same. I havent pushed that much but got like 25-30 keys above 15 and tanks plays the significant role.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Hulkovius View Post
    I thought the same. I havent pushed that much but got like 25-30 keys above 15 and tanks plays the significant role.
    It's different on PUGs or on premades. If you play on PUGs (what this thread is about), people on PUGs have near-to-zero autonomy. So the one who can smooth the run is the one who choose what to pull, when to pull and what to mark. That's very likely to be the tank in this situation.

    When playing higher keys in a premade, success will rely on more difficult pulls where CCs must be coordinated and executed in a precise order. And that would mostly be on DPS players' shoulders.
    Last edited by Naville; 2021-02-26 at 08:36 AM.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Naville View Post
    It's different on PUGs or on premades. If you play on PUGs (what this thread is about), people on PUGs have near-to-zero autonomy. So the one who can smooth the run is the one who choose what to pull, when to pull and what to mark. That's very likely to be the tank in this situation.

    When playing higher keys in a premade, success will rely on more difficult pulls where CCs must be coordinated and executed in a precise order. And that would mostly be on DPS players' shoulders.
    I can just admit that I agree

  7. #127
    From my +9-10 low bracket healer only pugging perspective, I rarely fail runs because of the tank, whatever the class.

    It’s usually the dps that do not enough dps, do not interrupt/kick and take a shitton of avoidable damage (one of the three or two of the three or three of the three).

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by intenz View Post
    DPS gets more important the higher you go, to the extent that eventually the tank is just following a pre-determined script, the healer is supplemental dps, and the dps are the ones making the run happen.

    The fact that this thread is such a tank circle jerk and so many people don't even use MDT (which makes tanking trivial) makes me think people here only do low keys without any research or preparation and then get tilted about "how hard tanking is" when they inevitably do things wrong. All tanking is in WoW is a matter of doing your due diligence whether it's a raid boss fight or M+. Tanking is the least mechanically demanding of the roles.
    There's a huge gap between bad tanks, avg tanks, and great tanks. But doing everything right in a run that is very hard no matter the role.

    You know I had another run with a 2k rating priest yesterday. He died at almost every boss. Line of sight the healer. Was the only one not standing in healing circles.
    Died from hooks at gorechop. Died from aoe at the warlord boss. Died at last boss from charge and breath. At 2 fucking thousand rating. How is that possible?

    I guess only dps matters to get good rating. There's no other way I can explain that.

    This was not the first time that arrogant 2k guys fail everything there is to do in a run. We had a guy in our old guild who had all 20,but died at almost every pack in a 15

  9. #129
    M+ as tank feels bad for the most part in PuGs.
    • You pick the route. No one says anything until something goes wrong, then it's your fault for using that route.
    • Someone pulls an extra mob and screws up the prideful spawn. "This route sucks".
    • DPS. You're either do too much, and not focusing on being a tank. Or you're doing too little.
    • Miss a shortcut or obscure trick you've never seen? "How do you not know about this?"

    You get to do all the work, and very often the rest of the group is just along for the ride. So if you don't magically know what they're expecting, or things don't go 100% according to plan they get upset.

    Also this mentality of just bailing after a wipe is so frustrating.

  10. #130
    I just finished my Keystone Master 3 Days ago as a prot Paladin. I did it all completly with PUGs. Its just planning and know your sh....! I had people that where friendly and people that were not. But most of the time i got positiv feedback. I think most Tanks just cant stand the weight of a responsible Role. Be friendly, do smalltalk, tell them what you have planned and where some crucial Points are. I toll the Healer when he cool heal the group an ignore me and where i get really hard Hits and he should be watching me. Just ....talk.....with .....the....people.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by intenz View Post
    DPS gets more important the higher you go, to the extent that eventually the tank is just following a pre-determined script, the healer is supplemental dps, and the dps are the ones making the run happen.

    The fact that this thread is such a tank circle jerk and so many people don't even use MDT (which makes tanking trivial) makes me think people here only do low keys without any research or preparation and then get tilted about "how hard tanking is" when they inevitably do things wrong. All tanking is in WoW is a matter of doing your due diligence whether it's a raid boss fight or M+. Tanking is the least mechanically demanding of the roles.
    I don't personally do keys this high, but my mage friend doing 19s and so, who is helping me be a better M+ tank, still says most of the responsibility is on the tank. Idunno.

    I know I occasionally get trashed in pugs even when things go smoothly.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Batoa View Post
    I just finished my Keystone Master 3 Days ago as a prot Paladin. I did it all completly with PUGs. Its just planning and know your sh....! I had people that where friendly and people that were not. But most of the time i got positiv feedback. I think most Tanks just cant stand the weight of a responsible Role. Be friendly, do smalltalk, tell them what you have planned and where some crucial Points are. I toll the Healer when he cool heal the group an ignore me and where i get really hard Hits and he should be watching me. Just ....talk.....with .....the....people.
    This is generally my experience. Not 100%, but mostly. But I do my research and know how to tank. I also apologize immediately if things go wrong.

    I LOVE the tank role, which is why I come back to it over and over again, expansion after expansion.
    But when people wonder why there is a tank shortage, they need to read threads like this and realize that tanks get trashed a LOT when things go wrong. It's not uncommon and it makes learning the new role very punishing.

  12. #132
    Scarab Lord
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    Unfortunately tanking, especially in pugs is basically always the designated leader. You're expected to know routes and the issue when pugging is that everybody has an opinion on what you're suppose to do, and if you deviate from somebodies idea (despite them not taking any responsibility at all), it's possible you get shit on.

    Tanking and healing are brutal in pugs, especially healers. The big reason I include healers in this discussion is unlike a tank, a healer can rarely actually carry a group no matter how good they are. Tanks typically have the tools (if you can gauge how good your group is by the first few pulls) to hard carry groups through proper interrupts, stuns and kiting, especially if they over gear the key level. Most healers don't really have the tools to do the same, nor do they control the pace of the group like a tank does. Obviously some healers have support abilities (and some have kicks like shaman), but you're usually at the mercy of your tanks and DPS to not stand in things, or actually interrupt things.

    The shitty thing is that when things start to fall to pieces, the tank might get blamed for taking too much damage from the healer, which a good portion of the time usually isn't the tanks fault. Either the DPS are just poor at using DPS abilities and not killing things fast enough, or the DPS are literally interrupting nothing and lots of bad casts are getting off. At that point the ire might be directed towards the healer, despite them pumping extreme amounts of HPS, but unhealable damage is, well.. unhealable. There's a reason that people who push high keys don't have extraordinarily high HPS numbers (although on some bosses it's absolutely required), and that's because the entire team pops offensive/defensive CDs properly, knows when to kite, knows what packs to pull and uses their utility correctly.

    At the end of the day every single role is important, but I think it's generally agreed upon that in uncoordinated groups, your tank probably has the most bearing on whether or not your group succeeds or not. You're expected to lead is the TLDR here. You don't push high keys without a good tank, healer and three DPS, it's just not possible.

    If I had to give any tips I actually wouldn't follow some of the raider.IO routes, even the 'basic' ones, most of them are actual trash and don't really consider what standard pugs might do. A great idea as a tank when you're pugging is to literally assume that everybody in your group is clinically retarded right from the start, and adjust from there. See that you should merge two to three packs together and do a big pull? You might be able to do that later in the instance when you determine that your group isn't awful, but doing that near the start is suicide. You have no idea if your DPS know how to properly use CDs (the amount that save them solely for bosses is still a thing), nor do you know if any of them are going to interrupt. You also have no idea if somebody is playing in first person and is woefully unaware of their surroundings, potentially running into extra mobs.

    The routes are okay for a basic idea, but just have a general idea of when you should be hitting prideful and always have a contingency plan incase you pull extra (which is bound to happen). Don't assume people have invisibility potions ever, and even if they do, don't assume that they can actually use an invisibility potion properly (because from my experience, most people will use an ability mid invis and pull).

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