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  1. #21
    Titan HighlordJohnstone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selah View Post
    1. As far as I'm aware he never actually says anything that explicitly implies the cosmic force itself. That is an assumption based on how the mechanics of life works and the community's perception of this quote from when it was originally released. All things can live do so and then die. It *feels* like death is the enemy of all who lives. However, as I pointed out earlier, with the exception of the Maw the Shadowlands seemingly is ordered to respect the mechanics of life. Hell, we even see it send people back to the realm of the living. Between Ardenweald and the souls being returned to the world of the living by the Kyrian, the realms of death are extremely compliant with the mechanisms of the universe. The only exception to this is the Jailer seemingly, which, to be fair, we don't actually know anything about his plans as we've all heard it through Sylvanas.

    2. True, there is no promise we'll win. We could lose. However, how many raids have we lost? The problem with raiding as a story mechanic is that we've always won them. While I'm still waiting on a proper raid where we lose we don't actually have any reason to believe we will lose until we actually lose one. While we could get a raid in Oribos we could too also get a Jailer raid somewhere else entirely. Could be another realm of the Shadowlands, could be somewhere else on the cosmic chart, could be in the material plane. We just don't know. The other issue with this is too... we'll be taking out a vast majority of his forces in this raid. The Terragrue, the Eye, Sylvanas, Anduin. What will be left of his forces after this raid? Who would the raid consist of? 10 different ways of fighting the Jailer directly? It doesn't make a lot of sense.

    Why do you think this? So far with all of the story threads we've seen in-game there has been very little if nothing talking about the in-between and only one reference to life (from the Winterqueen talking about Ysera's creator). While Blizz could totally just change course and throw a patch way out of left field like this, it doesn't seem likely. Especially considering the last couple of expansions the narrative between patches has been far more cohesive than the days of old where you jump for AQ to Naxx. Admittedly, we don't have access to the bulk of the lore from 9.1 and Blizzard is always planting seeds throughout expansions so there may be a change in narrative but right now we don't see any reason to believe this as everything we've seen has been entirely focused on the Jailer.


    The void seeks every possible path and sees them all as truth, very different from seeing infinite truths. The former is not the latter. The contrast between the void and the light is that the void considers all possibilities and operates from there while the light can only see one path forward and moves in that direction.

    To your point though, we don't actually know what the "pact" is between life or death. We don't know who struck it, how it operates, what the terms were, or even if it was fulfilled. The only thing we know is that is exists in a form. It is a massive assumption that the scar in Revendreth was because of the pact, as far as I can tell there is no reason to believe that the scar and the pact are related in anyway. If you have evidence to the contrary please do share though.


    Agreed, he is an important figure.


    That's my point, the whispers we were provided during Legion from the void all have been related to major points in the lore. The scar so far has been nothing more than interesting lore to this point.


    As far as I'm aware, even the "small ones" have been substantial lore points and were far more important than a random fact about a landmass.



    Likely the high table is referencing the forces, that was a tangent thought which isn't really supported. However, we actually have no reason to believe that the realm of death is working to consume all others. Bastion only ever ferries souls after someone dies and the Kyrian aren't doing anything to kill anyone, Ardenweald is only ever given souls and sometimes rebirths them, Revendreth and Maldraxxus are only ever given souls and are not actively doing anything to "consume" other realms. This statement is only true for the Jailer and his forces of the Maw which the other realms of the Shadowlands are actively moving against to put down, which furthers the idea that the whispers were talking about individuals and not entire cosmic forces.

    If you mean that there are other threats and dangers in the cosmic chart to deal with... then yes, we're all aware of that. No one is saying that they are the end all be all bad guy of Warcraft.


    Avatar of Warcraft confirmed.

    Not gonna lie, a sadistic part of myself is interested in this sort of story line. Anduin on a perpetual journey to learn and master the six cosmic forces. Though, I don't trust Blizzard's writing to do this correctly without him seeing like a god.
    Oh lord.

    1. Death being the enemy of all doesn't in itself mean ALL OF DEATH! Reminder, the Void and Light can also be considered "evil", but they're not. They're cosmic forces, just like everything else. However, regarding Denathrius and the Jailer, they definitely seem far more dark than anything we've seen before. I assume they're the enemy of all, IF the whole Enemy Preface thing + The Cunning Ones line from Il'gynoth applies to the Deadlords and the Jailer.

    2. We have lost before, albeit not in a raid. The Halls of Reflection, where we try to stop the Lich King, but fail and have to run away from his scary ass before it's too late. I assume something like this could happen again, but with the Jailer instead. Would be an amazing Parallel to WoTLK, imo.

    3. There are a lot of things regarding Life and the Inbetween. Blizzard's made it clear that we'll explore more of the Inbetween throughout Shadowlands, likely as patch content. Not to mention the Drust are still a threat, as well as some other things regarding Life. And since Life is the counter of Death, I wouldn't be shocked if the Jailer's forces try to claim it sometime soon.

    4. Pretty sure something was said about a pact regarding the Light and Revendreth. Outside of that, we legit make a pact with the Light anyway in regards to Denathrius, so who knows. And yes, the Void does see every possibility as true, that's why we're facing them after Death.

    5. The scar is a lot more, as it shows that the Light has more influence over the Cosmos than we know, and that they won't hesitate to do shady shit if they aren't given their way.

    6. Not really. Some of Il'gynoth's whispers in Legion were rather small in the end. Even now.

    7. We do have reason to believe that Death is trying to consume the other forces: https://www.wowhead.com/item=183742/...ration-preface Consume doesn't have to mean "OH YEAH, THE VOID IS SWALLOWING EVERYTHING!" or something like that. Consume can be metaphorical. Like, Death is metaphorically swallowing the other Cosmic Powers. Specifically the Jailer and his armada.

    8. I know, but that's just my stance. The forces we're going against next, outside of potentially Sargeras again, are going to be merely forces of nature. Light and Shadow will not be evil, but the mortals wielding their power will, though that's not my argument. In terms of divine beings, the Jailer's probably our last MAJOR villain.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Selah View Post
    So, with the final confirmation that Anduin is in fact going to be Arthas 2.0 it begs a question about a whisper that we've had on the back of our minds for a while. What was this pact? What are the details, what is the trade, what exactly does this mean?
    The Scarlet Crusade returns!

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by SigmaShift View Post
    I do not think the Jailer knows Anduin is void touched. From everything I gather, the Jailer fears the void. I think Anduin did this on purpose.

    I feel this all unravels in 9.2, and a larger evil, such as perhaps a Void Lord becomes the main enemy in 9.3
    It's hard to say what the Jailer does and doesn't know. It's common knowledge that priests can tap into the void and harness it, I'm assuming that knowledge doesn't escape the Jailer. Though, to be fair, my idea about him utilizing Anduin due to his ability to harness it is purely speculation. There's no reason to think the Jailer cares about it at all. It could very well be he loses his connection to both the void and the light when he's converted.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Council View Post
    the freaking out about Sylvanas.
    "She serves the enemy of all."
    The freaking out about Sylvanas? I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Since she really stepped into the spotlight back in Legion it's been since revealed she's been serving the Jailer. Not the Winterqueen, not the Arbiter, not Prince Renathal, not the Primus, not any of the other aspects of the Shadowlands except for the Jailer who has apparently been diametrically opposed to all the ruling forces of the Shadowlands. She is literally at his side multiple times during the expansion, does his bidding, and even converts (maybe kills? not sure how she converted him) Anduin into his servant. If we take that idea of her serving the enemy of all at face value then it only further reinforces that idea that "the enemy of all" is solely the Jailer and his forces and *not* the greater cosmic forces of death. We have no reason at this point to believe that the greater forces of death are out to do anything that would earn them such a title. That is of course unless the forces of the void truly fear death in a way we don't understand yet.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Selah View Post
    It's hard to say what the Jailer does and doesn't know. It's common knowledge that priests can tap into the void and harness it, I'm assuming that knowledge doesn't escape the Jailer. Though, to be fair, my idea about him utilizing Anduin due to his ability to harness it is purely speculation. There's no reason to think the Jailer cares about it at all. It could very well be he loses his connection to both the void and the light when he's converted.

    The freaking out about Sylvanas? I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Since she really stepped into the spotlight back in Legion it's been since revealed she's been serving the Jailer. Not the Winterqueen, not the Arbiter, not Prince Renathal, not the Primus, not any of the other aspects of the Shadowlands except for the Jailer who has apparently been diametrically opposed to all the ruling forces of the Shadowlands. She is literally at his side multiple times during the expansion, does his bidding, and even converts (maybe kills? not sure how she converted him) Anduin into his servant. If we take that idea of her serving the enemy of all at face value then it only further reinforces that idea that "the enemy of all" is solely the Jailer and his forces and *not* the greater cosmic forces of death. We have no reason at this point to believe that the greater forces of death are out to do anything that would earn them such a title. That is of course unless the forces of the void truly fear death in a way we don't understand yet.
    its not just the Jailer. Did you miss the attacks from the Legion, Light, and Void against the shadowlands?
    death is seen as the end and you cant corrupt the dead.
    the report systems sucks and the mods are bias.

  5. #25
    Mechagnome Cloudmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    Kyrians still have Uther and hes link to Arthas, doesnt mean Anduin is part of it.
    Totally agreed.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    Oh lord.

    1. Death being the enemy of all doesn't in itself mean ALL OF DEATH! Reminder, the Void and Light can also be considered "evil", but they're not. They're cosmic forces, just like everything else. However, regarding Denathrius and the Jailer, they definitely seem far more dark than anything we've seen before. I assume they're the enemy of all, IF the whole Enemy Preface thing + The Cunning Ones line from Il'gynoth applies to the Deadlords and the Jailer.
    Apologies, I missed this is my initial reply.

    That's my point, I'm just taking it to the next logical step and saying instead of death being the enemy of all it's just the Jailer and his forces.

    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    2. We have lost before, albeit not in a raid. The Halls of Reflection, where we try to stop the Lich King, but fail and have to run away from his scary ass before it's too late. I assume something like this could happen again, but with the Jailer instead. Would be an amazing Parallel to WoTLK, imo.
    Fair, but there still isn't reason to believe we're going to lose in any substantial way. Again, I'd like to see us lose a raid or two as part of the narrative arc there but I don't see a reason to think we will.
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    3. There are a lot of things regarding Life and the Inbetween. Blizzard's made it clear that we'll explore more of the Inbetween throughout Shadowlands, likely as patch content. Not to mention the Drust are still a threat, as well as some other things regarding Life. And since Life is the counter of Death, I wouldn't be shocked if the Jailer's forces try to claim it sometime soon.
    The only thing in relation to life I'm aware of is the nod to Ysera's creator and the deal that Ardenweald has with the Wildgods being reborn into the material plane. That's not enough of a breadcrumb trail to justify a patch in that direction. At least not from what we've been seeing these last couple of expansions. The Drust are a threat and that is a plausible thread to follow but the more obvious and immediate threat will be the Jailer and wherever he runs off to in 9.1 unless that is the 9.2 raid where we finally stand toe to toe with him while he resides in Thros.
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    4. Pretty sure something was said about a pact regarding the Light and Revendreth. Outside of that, we legit make a pact with the Light anyway in regards to Denathrius, so who knows. And yes, the Void does see every possibility as true, that's why we're facing them after Death.
    Source? Might be easier to discuss this point if I know exactly what we're discussing. We may be facing the void after death, it is always lingering in the background everywhere we go I just personally don't subscribe to that idea because we just went to Nyalotha and outright demolished it just last patch and Blizzard has been teasing the light for some time know, very similarly to the way they teased death for a while.
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    5. The scar is a lot more, as it shows that the Light has more influence over the Cosmos than we know, and that they won't hesitate to do shady shit if they aren't given their way.
    The light does have more influence than what is obvious to us. The entirety of the cosmos was created by the initial clash between light and void (according to chronicle). I think it's safe to assume they exist in all realms at all times in some form or another.
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    6. Not really. Some of Il'gynoth's whispers in Legion were rather small in the end. Even now.
    Do you have a specific one in mind?
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    7. We do have reason to believe that Death is trying to consume the other forces: https://www.wowhead.com/item=183742/...ration-preface Consume doesn't have to mean "OH YEAH, THE VOID IS SWALLOWING EVERYTHING!" or something like that. Consume can be metaphorical. Like, Death is metaphorically swallowing the other Cosmic Powers. Specifically the Jailer and his armada.
    We have a reason to believe that whoever wrote the note (likely a dreadlord) and Denathrius (and subsequently the Jailer as Denatrius was in service to him) are trying to undermine other greater forces within the cosmic chart. Do you believe that this minority of actors within the Shadowlands is enough to be the whole of the idea of death?

    You're right, it can be metaphorical. It almost certainly is, and as I stated in my origional post, my tinfoil hat theory is that the Jailer seeks to erase other forces on the chart by actively and literally killing all other states of existence. If there is nothing but death things like order, disorder, life, light, and void cease to exist and death has consumed all.

    I think you and I are saying the same thing here, I'm merely stating that the whisper about one seeking to consume all others isn't the greater existence of death but instead a splinter faction within the Shadowlands that seeks to consume all others.
    Quote Originally Posted by HighlordJohnstone View Post
    8. I know, but that's just my stance. The forces we're going against next, outside of potentially Sargeras again, are going to be merely forces of nature. Light and Shadow will not be evil, but the mortals wielding their power will, though that's not my argument. In terms of divine beings, the Jailer's probably our last MAJOR villain.
    I'm split on Sargeras, we may or may not face him again. Kinda depends on how they want to handle him and the titans. You're right about the forces of light and void, they're just primal forces being wielded by people of either benevolent or malevolent intent. You could even make that argument for all the different locations on the cosmic chart.

    I don't think the Jailer is a deity... is he? I know he's titan ++ level of power but I don't believe he's divinity. Outside of Elune I don't think anyone is really seen as a divinity. I know the community kinda saw the titans as divine beings back in the days of vanilla but it seems like that tone has changed. Though, as a D&D geek and someone who loves playing a Tempest Cleric I'd be down for some more divinities to appear.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Council View Post
    its not just the Jailer. Did you miss the attacks from the Legion, Light, and Void against the shadowlands?
    death is seen as the end and you cant corrupt the dead.
    That doesn't mean the greater whole of the Shadowlands is actively moving against the rest of the forces. So far it's just the Jailer and his splinter faction within the Shadowlands. Plus, you could just resurrect the dead since the light and life have both shown they could do that.
    Last edited by Selah; 2021-02-19 at 09:14 PM.

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